Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, rudi49jr said:

Or maybe Zelensky should have capitulated right away to avoid further bloodshed, like some other posters here suggested?

I'm one of the posters that suggested that, and yes, when faced with death and destruction as has happened, what would be preferable- resist and die, or live under Russian domination just like they did prior to becoming independent?

If the dead could speak, which would they prefer?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, tgw said:

the number of dead must be as low as possible of course, but the goal has to be achieved: Putin will be stopped. this will take the necessary number of lives, plus probably many more, but he must be stopped.

Are you volunteering to be one of the "necessary" dead?

 

How many lives are "low enough"?

[tgw]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

PS IMO it's easy to be a strong man far away from the fighting, so long as other people are dying. Perhaps if he'd been more willing to negotiate, no one would have had to die and cities would not be in ruins.

that's easy to say from your armchair.

you forget Putin already annexed Crimea and occupied parts of Luhansk and Donetzk  oblast under false flags at the time of the "negociations".

 

At some point there can't be negociations.

That sitation resembled the case of the Sudeten.

 

Putin got on the wrong side of history.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, tgw said:

at the moment, Ukrainians are paying the price, but make no mistake, they are defending the whole of Europe against Putin.

You think Putin would risk a war with NATO? I don't.

[tgw]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You think Putin would risk a war with NATO? I don't.

I bet you wouldn't have thought he would invade Ukraine like that either ... well, he did. He's a madman. 

 

A madman that is increasingly cornered. His tenure of power ends with a defeat in Ukraine. He stands back to the wall. That makes him very dangerous. As time passes, he's got less and less to lose.

 

I can see Putin launching a tactical nuke on Kramatorsk.

Just to test the waters.

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by tgw

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, tgw said:

that's easy to say from your armchair.

you forget Putin already annexed Crimea and occupied parts of Luhansk and Donetzk  oblast under false flags at the time of the "negociations".

 

At some point there can't be negociations.

That sitation resembled the case of the Sudeten.

 

Putin got on the wrong side of history.

Putin got on the wrong side of history.

 

Only if he loses. History is written by the winners.

Do you think Putin WILL lose? Perhaps, but nothing is certain in love or war.

 

PS, are we not both in our armchairs, far away from the fighting and dying?

[tgw]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Are you volunteering to be one of the "necessary" dead?

 

How many lives are "low enough"?

I would do my duty if my time was to come. But I'm not Ukrainian.

 

There is no such thing as "low enough". Only "keep going until the job is done".

Ukraine fights for its existence.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, tgw said:

I bet you wouldn't have thought he would invade Ukraine like that either ... well, he did. He's a madman. 

 

A madman that is increasingly cornered. His tenure of power ends with a defeat in Ukraine. He stands back to the wall. That makes him very dangerous. As time passes, he's got less and less to lose.

 

I can see Putin launching a tactical nuke on Kramatorsk.

Just to test the waters.

 

I bet you wouldn't have thought he would invade Ukraine like that either ... well, he did.

 

Actually I did, if the Ukraine didn't accept his terms prior.

[tgw]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Putin got on the wrong side of history.

 

Only if he loses. History is written by the winners.

Do you think Putin WILL lose? Perhaps, but nothing is certain in love or war.

 

PS, are we not both in our armchairs, far away from the fighting and dying?

Putin has lost already.

He knows it.

[tgw]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I bet you wouldn't have thought he would invade Ukraine like that either ... well, he did.

 

Actually I did, if the Ukraine didn't accept his terms prior.

So you knew he behaves like Hitler

[rudi49jr]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm one of the posters that suggested that, and yes, when faced with death and destruction as has happened, what would be preferable- resist and die, or live under Russian domination just like they did prior to becoming independent?

If the dead could speak, which would they prefer?

Holland capitulated in May of 1940, after fighting the Germans for 5 days. After that, there were 5 years of German reign of terror, during which over 100,000 Dutch jews were sent to concentration camps (very few of them survived), and tens of thousands of Dutch people were sent to prison, tortured and many died. Some of my family died at the hands of the Germans.
What do you think the Russians are going to do with Ukraine if they would win and take the whole country? Have you read the plans the Kremlin has? It’s beyond insane, so I can very well understand most Ukrainians are willing to fight to the death, because they would very probably end up wishing they were dead if the Russians did win and started carrying out their diabolical plans.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, tgw said:

I would do my duty if my time was to come. But I'm not Ukrainian.

 

There is no such thing as "low enough". Only "keep going until the job is done".

Ukraine fights for its existence.

You could join the other foreign volunteers if you wanted. Don't need to be Ukrainian.

 

Ukraine will not cease to exist if they lose, just under different masters.

Anyway, IMO Putin does not want all of the Ukraine; just the eastern part, and the rest forbidden to join NATO.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, tgw said:

Putin has lost already.

He knows it.

and you know that because ...............................?

[tgw]

1 minute ago, rudi49jr said:

Holland capitulated in May of 1940, after fighting the Germans for 5 days. After that, there were 5 years of German reign of terror, during which over 100,000 Dutch jews were sent to concentration camps (very few of them survived), and tens of thousands of Dutch people were sent to prison, tortured and many died. Some of my family died at the hands of the Germans.
What do you think the Russians are going to do with Ukraine if they would win and take the whole country? Have you read the plans the Kremlin has? It’s beyond insane, so I can very well understand most Ukrainians are willing to fight to the death, because they would very probably end up wishing they were dead if the Russians did win and started carrying out their diabolical plans.

from the Kyiv Independent's Website:

https://kyivindependent.com/

 

Quote

Ombudsman: Russia bolsters forced deportations of Ukrainians.

Ombudsman Lyudmyla Denisova said Ukraine is not yet able to verify the exact numbers, but the government is investigating the forced deportations. Russian state-controlled media cited sources in the Russian military, writing that 674,000 Ukrainians were moved to Russia, of whom over 131,000 are children.

Ethnic cleansing is underway

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Have you read the plans the Kremlin has? It’s beyond insane

Of course I have not, as they haven't published them, have they? Link to a reputable site if they have please.

 

Russia ruled Ukraine since the Czars didn't they, certainly during USSR? Who can say that it would be worse?

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, tgw said:

So you knew he behaves like Hitler

I don't know that he's like Hitler- has he attempted to exterminate a race based on religion? However he is probably a dictator in fact, so he likely behaves like dictators do.

[Jingthing]

40 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If you mean the Ukrainian president, I've seen him on tv news, and while I know nothing about him, I wouldn't willingly follow him into a brewery if they were giving away free beer.

 

PS IMO it's easy to be a strong man far away from the fighting, so long as other people are dying. Perhaps if he'd been more willing to negotiate, no one would have had to die and cities would not be in ruins.

Negotiate?

You mean surrender.

Putin deserves nothing in Ukraine.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't know that he's like Hitler- has he attempted to exterminate a race based on religion? However he is probably a dictator in fact, so he likely behaves like dictators do.

Actually his ideology and now actions are genocidal towards Ukrainians. His invasion mirrors Hitler's of Czechoslovakia.

[Jingthing]

35 minutes ago, tgw said:

there already are a lot of Europeans dead.

 

"must be stopped" is an imperative.

 

the number of dead must be as low as possible of course, but the goal has to be achieved: Putin will be stopped. this will take the necessary number of lives, plus probably many more, but he must be stopped.

 

at the moment, Ukrainians are paying the price, but make no mistake, they are defending the whole of Europe against Putin.

 

 

 

The implications are already global.

[rudi49jr]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

22 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

 

Of course I have not, as they haven't published them, have they? Link to a reputable site if they have please.

https://ccl.org.ua/en/news/ria-novosti-has-clarified-russias-plans-vis-a-vis-ukraine-and-the-rest-of-the-free-world-in-a-program-like-article-what-russia-should-do-with-ukraine-2/

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and how many European leaders would be willing to bet on your "understanding"?

Not following your logic. 

Nobody is happy that thanks to Putin there is now a small chance that we are in the nuclear end times, but that is the situation. 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/tactical-nuclear-weapons-escalation-us-russia-war-animated-strike-map-2019-9?op=1

 

 

A terrifying new animation shows how 1 'tactical' nuclear weapon could trigger a US-Russia war that kills 34 million people in 5 hours

Edited April 9, 2022 by Jingthing

[thaibeachlovers]

10 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

https://ccl.org.ua/en/news/ria-novosti-has-clarified-russias-plans-vis-a-vis-ukraine-and-the-rest-of-the-free-world-in-a-program-like-article-what-russia-should-do-with-ukraine-2/

I did ask for a reputable site, and I hardly think that qualifies. Reuters or the BBC perhaps.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Not following your logic. 

Nobody is happy that thanks to Putin there is now a small chance that we are in the nuclear end times, but that is the situation. 

I meant how many European leaders would risk nuclear war based on your "understanding" that Putin would be stopped from launching?

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I meant how many European leaders would risk nuclear war based on your "understanding" that Putin would be stopped from launching?

Not following you at all!

The risk is already there if Putin continues to lose. 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If you mean the Ukrainian president, I've seen him on tv news, and while I know nothing about him, I wouldn't willingly follow him into a brewery if they were giving away free beer.

 

PS IMO it's easy to be a strong man far away from the fighting, so long as other people are dying. Perhaps if he'd been more willing to negotiate, no one would have had to die and cities would not be in ruins.

So Zelinsky isn't brave enough for you? That really takes the cake.  Its feeling like your taking the <deleted>.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If you mean the Ukrainian president, I've seen him on tv news, and while I know nothing about him, I wouldn't willingly follow him into a brewery if they were giving away free beer.

 

PS IMO it's easy to be a strong man far away from the fighting, so long as other people are dying. Perhaps if he'd been more willing to negotiate, no one would have had to die and cities would not be in ruins.

"it's easy to be a strong man far away from the fighting"

 

That describes Putin, not Zelensky.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm one of the posters that suggested that, and yes, when faced with death and destruction as has happened, what would be preferable- resist and die, or live under Russian domination just like they did prior to becoming independent?

If the dead could speak, which would they prefer?

How many countries in addition to Ukraine do you think should surrender when threatened by Putin?

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You think Putin would risk a war with NATO? I don't.

If he had easily succeeded in Ukraine he would have kept going until he forced NATO to directly confront Russia.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

How many countries in addition to Ukraine do you think should surrender when threatened by Putin?

If not in NATO, any, unless they have loads of nukes.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

If he had easily succeeded in Ukraine he would have kept going until he forced NATO to directly confront Russia.

IN YOUR OPINION.