1 minute ago, KhaoYai said:

I think I am starting to understand you - and I sort of understand your thinking.  You seem to be saying that men who go with ladyboys would not go with a gay male - they are only attracted to ladyboys?

 

That may well be true but its still a form of homosexuality - which is not at all 'straight'.

Whats straight about footballers patting each other on their bums?

5 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

The ancient greeks had bi orgies. Considered normal.

 

 

By who?  It may have been normal for them to have such orgies but the activity is certainly not normal.

Just now, Sparktrader said:

Whats straight about footballers patting each other on their bums?

Don't start something you can't finish.

2 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

By who?  It may have been normal for them to have such orgies but the activity is certainly not normal.

Is smoking normal? To a smoker it. To a non smoker it isnt.

 

There is no normal to 100% of people.

 

Is it normal to eat too much junk food and be 80lbs overweight?

To me being a vegan is not normal. To them its normal.

 

Normal is subjective.

26 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I disagree. Maybe you would call a LB that. I certainly don't think of them as women because they are not.  How do you come about your claim?

The thing is, it comes down to the individual.  If someone thinks a ladyboy is a woman with a penis, then that's how they view it.  We can't really attack that claim as it is one of their own personal and subjective perception.

 

If you're getting to the point where you want to have the argument "you might think ladyboys are women with penises, but I think they're men, so, personally, I consider you to be gay", 1, it's simply your opinion vs. theirs, and 2, can you really happily make the claim of someone being gay based on your consideration of a ladyboy to be male, if they think the ladyboy is a woman?

Just now, Sparktrader said:

Is smoking normal? To a smoker it. To a non smoker it isnt.

 

There is no normal to 100% of people.

 

Is it normal to eat too much junk food and be 80lbs overweight?

We are talking about sexuality. Sexuality that has widely accepted definitions.

 

I disagree, most people do know what normal means - that's the whole point of the word. I very much doubt that 100% of people have 'no normal' - in fact I'd think the percentage is very low.  Its just that some people can't accept there is a normal - perhaps because they are not normal themselves.

9 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Is smoking normal? To a smoker it. To a non smoker it isnt.

 

There is no normal to 100% of people.

 

Is it normal to eat too much junk food and be 80lbs overweight?

Bottom line is once you scratch the surface everyone is a weirdo.

 

ladyboy

noun

 

/ˈleɪdibɔɪ/

 

/ˈleɪdibɔɪ/

(informal)

1. a word used especially in South-East Asia to refer to a trans woman, a gay man who dresses in a feminine way, or an intersex person

 

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/ladyboy

On 5/7/2022 at 4:55 PM, scubascuba3 said:

"Admit" was the correct word, this thread being a perfect example, where are all the LB lovers to explain why they like LBs? they are in hiding like they always are when these threads come up.

 

The other odd thing is guys who like LBs still want to consider themselves as heterosexual, which of course they are not, they come under Q of LGBTQ

Guys who like ladyboys are certainly not heterosexual. How can they be?

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Bottom line is once you scratch the surface everyone is a weirdo.

Weirdo or boring

5 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

 

ladyboy

noun

 

/ˈleɪdibɔɪ/

 

/ˈleɪdibɔɪ/

(informal)

1. a word used especially in South-East Asia to refer to a trans woman, a gay man who dresses in a feminine way, or an intersex person

 

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/ladyboy

Im not gay but the ladyboy i slept with last night said he was 

 

Old joke

1 minute ago, Sparktrader said:

Weirdo or boring

Both?

3 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Guys who like ladyboys are certainly not heterosexual. How can they be?

Because they are.

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Because they are.

And black is actually white.........right?

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Because they are.

How can you be hetro if you like playing with or havinga penis inserted into your bottom? 

You could be bi.i reckon 

Just now, KhaoYai said:

And black is actually white.........right?

No.

But people tend to know their own sexual orientation.

Just now, bert bloggs said:

How can you be hetro if you like playing with or havinga penis inserted into your bottom? 

You could be bi.i reckon 

Sometimes.

One thing I've noticed in this and many other discussions is that those with the minority view almost always object to the word 'normal'.  They seem to see it as a derogatory word - its not.

 

Its quite clear to me why we need the word normal. Language relies heavily on descriptors. 'Normal' is a descriptor  and without them or their definitions it mat be very difficult to give an explanation or meaning.

 

However, the word normal is fluid and depends on majorities. In relation to the discussion here - if the majority of people were gay or bisexual, then that would become 'normal'

 

For now, there is no doubt in my mind that:

 

Heterosexual behaviour is normal and relates ONLY to those who are only attracted to/have sexual relations with the opposite sex.

 

Homosexual behaviour is abnormal and relates to those attracted to or have sexual relations with the same sex -  be that exclusive or occasional.

 

Heterosexual behaviour itself is not fluid, a person cannot be both straight and homosexual - that is covered by the descriptor 'bisexual'. 

 

A ladyboy may not necessarily be gay (but most likely is) but those who have sexual relations with or are attracted to them are either gay or bi because a ladyboy is not actually a woman.  Those who have had surgery are closer to being a woman that those who remain intact but neither can currently be considered a woman. It is extremely unlikely a complete sex change will ever be available.

 

If somehow a man could become wholly a woman or vice versa then transexuals could possibly be refered to as normal - as could having sexual relations with them.  However, currently they cannot be fully 'changed' and I doubt that will ever be possible.

 

The very fact that some men actively seek out another man that acts/looks like a woman is a form of sexual deviance and therefore not the norm. I await those who claim that a man having sex with another man is not deviant.

 

One interesting fact I came across on the web is that the Thai term for Ladyboy - Kathoey is used by the Thai population to describe both trans-women and effiminate gay men.

 

normal

/ˈnɔːm(ə)l/

Learn to pronounce

 

See definitions in: all, geometry, medicine, chemistry· - dated, geology, sociology · informal

 

adjective

adjective: normal

1.  

   conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.

   "it's quite normal for puppies to bolt their food"

 

https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/

 

Sexual Deviance

Abstract

Sexual deviance, and what is defined as sexually deviant, is culturally and historically specific. This concept refers to behaviors where individuals seek erotic gratification through means that are considered odd, different, or unacceptable to either most or influential persons in one's community. As with most forms of deviance, sexual deviance is something that is defined differently by persons of different backgrounds, beliefs, morals, and locations. However, sexual deviance is also an idea about which most persons hold very strong views, and react in stigmatizing and ostracizing ways.

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9781405165518.wbeoss091.pub2

 

58 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No.

But people tend to know their own sexual orientation.

I agree - but they clearly don't always admit to it.

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

One thing I've noticed in this and many other discussions is that those with the minority view almost always object to the word 'normal'.  They seem to see it as a derogatory word - its not.

 

Its quite clear to me why we need the word normal. Language relies heavily on descriptors. 'Normal' is a descriptor  and without them or their definitions it mat be very difficult to give an explanation or meaning.

 

However, the word normal is fluid and depends on majorities. In relation to the discussion here - if the majority of people were gay or bisexual, then that would become 'normal'

 

For now, there is no doubt in my mind that:

 

Heterosexual behaviour is normal and relates ONLY to those who are only attracted to/have sexual relations with the opposite sex.

 

Homosexual behaviour is abnormal and relates to those attracted to or have sexual relations with the same sex -  be that exclusive or occasional.

 

Heterosexual behaviour itself is not fluid, a person cannot be both straight and homosexual - that is covered by the descriptor 'bisexual'. 

 

A ladyboy may not necessarily be gay (but most likely is) but those who have sexual relations with or are attracted to them are either gay or bi because a ladyboy is not actually a woman.  Those who have had surgery are closer to being a woman that those who remain intact but neither can currently be considered a woman. It is extremely unlikely a complete sex change will ever be available.

 

If somehow a man could become wholly a woman or vice versa then transexuals could possibly be refered to as normal - as could having sexual relations with them.  However, currently they cannot be fully 'changed' and I doubt that will ever be possible.

 

The very fact that some men actively seek out another man that acts/looks like a woman is a form of sexual deviance and therefore not the norm. I await those who claim that a man having sex with another man is not deviant.

 

One interesting fact I came across on the web is that the Thai term for Ladyboy - Kathoey is used by the Thai population to describe both trans-women and effiminate gay men.

 

normal

/ˈnɔːm(ə)l/

Learn to pronounce

 

See definitions in: all, geometry, medicine, chemistry· - dated, geology, sociology · informal

 

adjective

adjective: normal

1.  

   conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.

   "it's quite normal for puppies to bolt their food"

 

https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/

 

Sexual Deviance

Abstract

Sexual deviance, and what is defined as sexually deviant, is culturally and historically specific. This concept refers to behaviors where individuals seek erotic gratification through means that are considered odd, different, or unacceptable to either most or influential persons in one's community. As with most forms of deviance, sexual deviance is something that is defined differently by persons of different backgrounds, beliefs, morals, and locations. However, sexual deviance is also an idea about which most persons hold very strong views, and react in stigmatizing and ostracizing ways.

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9781405165518.wbeoss091.pub2

 

Is being left handed abnormal?

Is being red headed abnormal?

Is being very intelligent abnormal?

Is being a republican in San Francisco abnormal?

 

Dude you speak with forked tongue. First you imply normal is always a neutral descriptor. Then you graduate to describe all same sex sex as sexual deviance. I know homophobia when I see it. Its not pretty.

 

In real life we have males that are called bullies that are obsessed with enforcing gender norms. That can be done with violence, social stigmatization  and even just words and language.

22 hours ago, aqua4 said:

There was a rather insightful documentary a few years back on British television. It was about Brits who live with a ladyboy in Thailand. They asked the one, well when you naked and she turns around there is the 'thing'. He says yes, it does not fit in with the rest of her body. The interviewer asks him, well what do you think when you see the 'thing'. He pauses and then says that he thinks of it as an oversized clitorirs in his mind.  I wondered then how many who like ladyboys actually do this level of mental gymnastics. 

Doesn't seem like a big stretch to me.

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Is being left handed abnormal?

Is being red headed abnormal?

Is being very intelligent abnormal?

Is being a republican in San Francisco abnormal?

 

Dude you speak with forked tongue. First you imply normal is always a neutral descriptor. Then you graduate to describe all same sex sex as sexual deviance. I know homophobia when I see it. Its not pretty.

 

In real life we have males that are called bullies that are obsessed with enforcing gender norms. That can be done with violence, social stigmatization  and even just words and language.

Dude?? Please speak English.

 

You know homophobia when you see it?  You're making assumptions without knowledge and that is often problematic - my brother is gay and I have a normal, brotherly relationship with him. One of my closest friends is gay - we would not be friends if I was at all homophobic. 

 

If you read through my posts you will find that on several occasions I've referred to gays as being equal, and that I am not carrying out any form of slur or being derogatory.  I have the same respect for gays as I do for anyone else. I admit, I cannot tolerate being around when any form of homophosexual activity take place.  That's my right - it makes me puke to see two me kissing, nothing's going to change that and its not a voluntary reaction.

 

I don't have any problems in stating that a man having sex with a man is homosexual behaviour, it is and I'm backed up by the norms that you have such problems with.  I don't understand what attracts a man to a LB but some clearly are, although they are certainly not straight, not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

If you can't accept that you or the men that have sex with ladyboys are not normal, that's your problem, not mine. Are those that have sex with children also normal? It happens a lot you know? I believe there are both men and women that have sex with animals - is that normal.  You know very well that both of those practices are not normal. The fact that they are both against the law is besides the point - that point is why we need the descriptors you have such problems with.

 

I really don't understand why you insist that a man who has sex with a LB is heterosexual.  I think that even those who don't agree with most of what I say would agree that they are not.

 

You have a perfect right to believe what you want but if you wish to re-identify the word 'normal' you'd better get writing a paper that is convincing enough to be classified is academic and thus, accepted.

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Again not all straight guys 

No, just the ones that are 'temporarily' gay ????.

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Dude?? Please speak English.

 

You know homophobia when you see it?  You're making assumptions without knowledge and that is often problematic - my brother is gay and I have a normal, brotherly relationship with him. One of my closest friends is gay - we would not be friends if I was at all homophobic. 

 

If you read through my posts you will find that on several occasions I've referred to gays as being equal, and that I am not carrying out any form of slur or being derogatory.  I have the same respect for gays as I do for anyone else. I admit, I cannot tolerate being around when any form of homophosexual activity take place.  That's my right - it makes me puke to see two me kissing, nothing's going to change that and its not a voluntary reaction.

 

I don't have any problems in stating that a man having sex with a man is homosexual behaviour, it is and I'm backed up by the norms that you have such problems with.  I don't understand what attracts a man to a LB but some clearly are, although they are certainly not straight, not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

If you can't accept that you or the men that have sex with ladyboys are not normal, that's your problem, not mine. Are those that have sex with children also normal? It happens a lot you know? I believe there are both men and women that have sex with animals - is that normal.  You know very well that both of those practices are not normal. The fact that they are both against the law is besides the point - that point is why we need the descriptors you have such problems with.

 

I really don't understand why you insist that a man who has sex with a LB is heterosexual.  I think that even those who don't agree with most of what I say would agree that they are not.

 

You have a perfect right to believe what you want but if you wish to re-identify the word 'normal' you'd better get writing a paper that is convincing enough to be classified is academic and thus, accepted.

A very long post which includes classics like "my best friends are" and mentioning pedophilia to basically avoid defending what you actually said.

 

To wit

 

I await those who claim that a man having sex with another man is not deviant.

 

Same sex activity is not deviant.

 

if it makes you vomit, that's really your problem.

9 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Sounds like projection.

Straight men go with LBs because they like them and they want the female package.

If they were closeted gay its very easy to arrange a very discreet hookup with a real cisgender stunning young man here without the breasts, ladyboytude, or female clothing 

I thought the LGBT movement was all about recognising different types of sexual orientation - hence the ever growing acronym (LGBTQ+ etc etc). I don't understand why men who like to sleep with other men (dressed as women) should be excluded from that movement. 

It seems a bit unfair to be calling them 'straight' men, don't you think? Don't they deserve a letter in the acronym? (sorry, facetious I know)

 

Surely the straight men are the ones who only want to sleep with real women. It doesn't make them any better than other members of society, but we should try to be accurate here. 

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

A very long post which includes classics like "my best friends are" and mentioning pedophilia to basically avoid defending what you actually said.

 

To wit

 

I await those who claim that a man having sex with another man is not deviant.

 

Same sex activity is not deviant.

 

if it makes you vomit, that's really your problem.

Classics?  Should I lie then? Or is that what you're claiming?

 

A long post because I fully explain my position and where possible, back it up. Conversely you write short posts that claim to be correct when they are purely an opinion - i.e. Same sex activity is not deviant.  It 'deviates' from the norm - although you don't even accept norms do you?

 

Deviating from the norm does not necessarily make an activity wrong, it simply marks something out as different. I don't understand why you can't just deal with it.  There are people who slur gays or go as far as attacking them - simply because of their sexuality, I'm not one of them.  What's wrong with being different?  Nothing! What is wrong is claiming that heterosexual men who have sex with Ladyboys are straight.  I admit, I haven't read every definition of heterosexual but I very much doubt there's one that says

 

Heterosexual male: A man who is attracted to and/or has sex, members of the opposite sex (or those who appear to be).

 

I have also made it clear that my aversion to same sex activity is not a choice, however, its not a problem, well not for me anyway.

50 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I thought the LGBT movement was all about recognising different types of sexual orientation - hence the ever growing acronym (LGBTQ+ etc etc). I don't understand why men who like to sleep with other men (dressed as women) should be excluded from that movement. 

It seems a bit unfair to be calling them 'straight' men, don't you think? Don't they deserve a letter in the acronym? (sorry, facetious I know)

 

Surely the straight men are the ones who only want to sleep with real women. It doesn't make them any better than other members of society, but we should try to be accurate here. 

Not if they self identify as straight. Most fans of LBs self identify as straight. The LGBTQ civil rights movement RESPECTS people's right to self identify and that of course includes straight men.

 

Why would people think it's OK to force their retrograde narrow concepts of labeling on other people?!? 

 

To my POV, straight men who insist that other self identifying straight men who are attracted to LBs are gay or bi just because their is a d involved are basically acting as intolerant bullies, FORCING their own concept of gender norms on others. That's what bullies do. If these straight fans of LBs consider themselves straight, why are so many people disrespecting them and insisting they be labeled differently? 

 

Yes -- be accurate.

35 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Classics?  Should I lie then? 

 

A long post because I fully explain my position and where possible, back it up. Conversely you write short posts that claim to be correct when they are purely and opinion - i.e. Same sex activity is not deviant.  It 'deviates' from the norm - although you don't even accept norms do you?

 

Deviating from the norm does not necessarily make an activity wrong, it simply marks something out as different.

 

I have also made it clear that my aversion to same sex activity is not a choice, however, its not a problem, well not for me anyway.

YOU said it was.

 

Your words:

 

 

I await those who claim that a man having sex with another man is not deviant.

 

You know perfectly well and you mentioned it too that labeling people SEXUALLY DEVIANT opens them up to harmful stigma and discrimination. Promoting calling same sex deviant is very noxious to your so called best friends.

 

Do they know that you consider them sexual deviants?

 

A new alphabet is need me thinks.