The REAL EV vehicle discussion thread.....

[transam]

I am sure you all realise that in the not too distant future we will all be riding around sitting on a battery. 

 

I thought a thread discussing all aspects or concerns, costs etc, in this early stage of EV's we could talk about.

 

Are today's batteries good enough, actual distances achieved, battery degradation etc. 

 

I see that many brands give an 8 year guarantee on batteries, but, that 8 years is "OR 100,000 miles", about 160,000Km. ????

Now, if you cover many Km's in your EV, the batteries could be stuffed well before that 8 years.

 

What about when you want to buy a new EV, is the value of the car going to be carp because the battery life or Km is near, whereas, here in LOS gas car's hold reasonable value till old age, in other words, trade in value.

 

Would like to hear views or thoughts, especially if you have concerns...????

[proton]

Too expensive to consider at the moment

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, proton said:

Too expensive to consider at the moment

I agree.

 

We mainly use our car in and around Bangkok, mainly the school run... 

A 30km round trip twice per day... Plus the little journeys so the car does perhaps 80kmh max on the average day. 

 

An EV would be ideal.... Plug it in at night, un-plug in the morning - that should be fine. 

Also ideal would be ‘additional juice’ because, of course, there would be days (evenings) we forget to plug it in !!!... 

 

BUT....  the EV’s are just two expensive... IF we could get an EV CX-5 which cost 1.7MB that would be fine.

I’m not interested in the MG or the Haval or ORA...  

 

But at some point soon a manufacturer will produce an EV which fits budget, size and brand quality.

The issue then becomes ‘road trips’....  What do we take on our trips down to Koh Chang, Samet, Hua Hun, Khao Yai etc... We’d need a second car or have to hire one... but why hire a car when we’ve already go one !!... 

 

Thus: When cars have a reliable ‘real world’ range of 500km would they become a truly viable option for us as a family.

 

Of course, its possible to have two cars... i.e. a small little E.V. run around... But I don’t want my Wife and Son to be ‘running around’ in a tiny little car (the school run uses the Expressway) so I want them in something safe of a reasonable size (i.e. not yaris size). 

 

 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, proton said:

Too expensive to consider at the moment

That is a factor, my thoughts are that their cost will come down a lot in perhaps the near future, depending on the quality of a particular brand's battery, bit like my first home video player, cost a fortune, to come down to a cheap TV accessory...

 

Battery manufacture for a particular brand car, well thinking of basic battery brands, for home use etc, there are good ones and cheap carp ones, when I see the cost of batteries at Mr.DIY, I wonder how they can be made and sold so cheap, but they are. So I wonder about the EV batteries and quality.

[Kwasaki]

The only battery I like is under my motorbike seat and the one under my truck bonnet, l'm glad I have lived in the petrolhead era. 

[KhunLA]

OP ... You are still pushing the theory, batteries are stuffed after the warranty, 8yr/180k kms has expired.   Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

When you accept that, a conversation can actually happen.

 

Also need to accept the fact, that ICE & EV both depreciate, some faster than others, some not.  Depends wholly on supply & demand, and nothing else.

 

If going to push the same BS people do, did on the EV Thailand thread, and not use the ICE vs EV thread, then this will simply become another wasted thread mentioning EVs, and repeating ignorance or more opportunities to troll.

 

My Mazda 2 depreciated to the point, I didn't bother selling, and was more value to me, to simply give it to my daughter.

 

My MG (ICE) has depreciated more than I'd prefer, but since unneeded by myself or daughter, it would be silly to keep, when having an EV arrive.

 

At the 8 yr mark, I wouldn't expect any EV or ICE to be worth much.  Unless a unique vehicle in high demand, for whatever reason.  But surely nothing I'd probably own, for the added cost at purchase.  Keep or sell ...  hmm... always nice to have a back up, or extra jingle in the pocket.  Choice is yours.

 

As you know, I'm an EV fan, so far, with no concerns what so ever, especially of the silly things people mention.  I've ran the numbers, and everyday, it find it even more advantageous for us to own an EV vs future expense of owning an ICE.  No need to repeat the whys and numbers, unless someone new to the forums asks.

 

Hope my assessment of the future of this thread is wrong, but experience shows, I'll probably, sadly, be correct.

 

I may be incorrect, some good thoughts while typing, and buy in cost can be an issue for some.

[richard_smith237]

24 minutes ago, transam said:

What about when you want to buy a new EV, is the value of the car going to be carp because the battery life or Km is near, whereas, here in LOS gas car's hold reasonable value till old age, in other words, trade in value.

Perhaps by then Thailand’s motor servicing trade has evolved to ‘switch out batteries’...  in much the same way people can switch out their engines... people have Mercedes with Toyota engines !... 

 

But, when the batteries of the EV cars built into the chassis mean changing a batter means virtually completely disassembling the vehicle the battery change out may be too expensive. 

 

I see the who ‘vehicle ownership model’ changing completely... where people do not own their E.V.’s.... they lease them.

 

Thailand also brings in the ‘pick-up factor’....    In cities, people will lease their sedans and hatchbacks etc...the regular cars... whereas outside of the city people who ride around in and drive pickups will be much slower to adapt and these vehicles will be around for much longer as folks relying on pickups for transport are slower to adapt as are the vehicles themselves. 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

OP ... You are still pushing the theory, batteries are stuffed after the warranty, 8yr/180k kms has expired.   Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

When you accept that, a conversation can actually happen.

 

Also need to accept the fact, that ICE & EV both depreciate, some faster than others, some not.  Depends wholly on supply & demand, and nothing else.

 

If going to push the same BS people do, did on the EV Thailand thread, and not use the ICE vs EV thread, then this will simply become another wasted thread mentioning EVs, and repeating ignorance or more opportunities to troll.

 

My Mazda 2 depreciated to the point, I didn't bother selling, and was more value to me, to simply give it to my daughter.

 

My MG (ICE) has depreciated more than I'd prefer, but since unneeded by myself or daughter, it would be silly to keep, when having an EV arrive.

 

At the 8 yr mark, I wouldn't expect any EV or ICE to be worth much.  Unless a unique vehicle in high demand, for whatever reason.  But surely nothing I'd probably own, for the added cost at purchase.  Keep or sell ...  hmm... always nice to have a back up, or extra jingle in the pocket.  Choice is yours.

 

As you know, I'm an EV fan, so far, with no concerns what so ever, especially of the silly things people mention.  I've ran the numbers, and everyday, it find it even more advantageous for us to own an EV vs future expense of owning an ICE.  No need to repeat the whys and numbers, unless someone new to the forums asks.

 

Hope my assessment of the future of this thread is wrong, but experience shows, I'll probably, sadly, be correct.

 

I may be incorrect, some good thoughts while typing, and buy in cost can be an issue for some.

Hey, YOUR EV brand tells me that is their limit for the batteries for a warranty, not mine, if the batteries were that good at this time why state a warrantee of 8 years OR 100,000miles, which could be reached weeeeell before 8 years....

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

Battery manufacture for a particular brand car, well thinking of basic battery brands, for home use etc, there are good ones and cheap carp ones, when I see the cost of batteries at Mr.DIY, I wonder how they can be made and sold so cheap, but they are. So I wonder about the EV batteries and quality.

There is also the ‘facet’ of batteries source from ethically minded rare earth metals. 

 

We’ve all see the photo’s of the pollution mining for these metals causes and the conditions which those who mine work in...   we’ve seen the photos of the African kids working in these mines (i.e. Congo Mines exploiting children etc)....

 

... Thus, there are ethical concerns too, plus the added facet that when considering all factors of evolution for a vehicles sourcing materials / minerals / metals through to the full life-span of the vehicle itself that E.V.’s may themselves may not be any more environmentally friendly than vehicles running with ICE.

 

The only single benefit of E.V’s IMO is cleaner cities, which is of course, necessary - however. 

 

Hydrogen is a better option IMO - I’m still struggling to comprehend why we have gone ‘battery’ rather than hydrogen. 

 

 

 

[proton]

7 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I agree.

 

We mainly use our car in and around Bangkok, mainly the school run... 

A 30km round trip twice per day... Plus the little journeys so the car does perhaps 80kmh max on the average day. 

 

An EV would be ideal.... Plug it in at night, un-plug in the morning - that should be fine. 

Also ideal would be ‘additional juice’ because, of course, there would be days (evenings) we forget to plug it in !!!... 

 

BUT....  the EV’s are just two expensive... IF we could get an EV CX-5 which cost 1.7MB that would be fine.

I’m not interested in the MG or the Haval or ORA...  

 

But at some point soon a manufacturer will produce an EV which fits budget, size and brand quality.

The issue then becomes ‘road trips’....  What do we take on our trips down to Koh Chang, Samet, Hua Hun, Khao Yai etc... We’d need a second car or have to hire one... but why hire a car when we’ve already go one !!... 

 

Thus: When cars have a reliable ‘real world’ range of 500km would they become a truly viable option for us as a family.

 

Of course, its possible to have two cars... i.e. a small little E.V. run around... But I don’t want my Wife and Son to be ‘running around’ in a tiny little car (the school run uses the Expressway) so I want them in something safe of a reasonable size (i.e. not yaris size). 

 

 

Friend has a hybrid Yaris in Spain part ev part petrol. Starts in electric mode, does the first few kilometers in it then switches to petrol. Never seen one of those here but that would do us as our usual trip is 20k to the shops and back. No plugging in as it charges up while running somehow, not a silly price either.

[Henryford]

Will there ever be a second hand market for EVs? I can see anyone buying a used EV with out of date tech and a clapped out battery. With out a used market how can they ever be popular. Not every one has 1-2 million for a new one.

[transam]

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Perhaps by then Thailand’s motor servicing trade has evolved to ‘switch out batteries’...  in much the same way people can switch out their engines... people have Mercedes with Toyota engines !... 

 

But, when the batteries of the EV cars built into the chassis mean changing a batter means virtually completely disassembling the vehicle the battery change out may be too expensive. 

 

I see the who ‘vehicle ownership model’ changing completely... where people do not own their E.V.’s.... they lease them.

 

Thailand also brings in the ‘pick-up factor’....    In cities, people will lease their sedans and hatchbacks etc...the regular cars... whereas outside of the city people who ride around in and drive pickups will be much slower to adapt and these vehicles will be around for much longer as folks relying on pickups for transport are slower to adapt as are the vehicles themselves. 

I watched a vid on some guy changing an EV battery.

My thoughts were, surely that ride is not 8 years old, and blimey, the car was in bits, so a very, very expensive job...

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Hey, YOUR EV brand tells me that is their limit for the batteries for a warranty, not mine, if the batteries were that good at this time why state a warrantee of 8 years OR 100,000miles, which could be reached weeeeell before 8 years....

My Mazda has a warranty up to 4 years (I think)... but the car will be easily good enough for 10.

Warranties are set by lawyers and accountants.....  and also involve a facet of marketing. 

[transam]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

There is also the ‘facet’ of batteries source from ethically minded rare earth metals. 

 

We’ve all see the photo’s of the pollution mining for these metals causes and the conditions which those who mine work in...   we’ve seen the photos of the African kids working in these mines (i.e. Congo Mines exploiting children etc)....

 

... Thus, there are ethical concerns too, plus the added facet that when considering all factors of evolution for a vehicles sourcing materials / minerals / metals through to the full life-span of the vehicle itself that E.V.’s may themselves may not be any more environmentally friendly than vehicles running with ICE.

 

The only single benefit of E.V’s IMO is cleaner cities, which is of course, necessary - however. 

 

Hydrogen is a better option IMO - I’m still struggling to comprehend why we have gone ‘battery’ rather than hydrogen. 

 

 

 

Toyota is onto that....????

[Andrew Dwyer]

18 minutes ago, proton said:

Too expensive to consider at the moment

Not necessarily.

If you want to go MG route ( the op doesn’t have to repeat his agenda on MG , we are all tired of that ) then the EP and the EV are a good price with the current government subsidies, but difficult to find at the moment.

The others, I agree , are expensive and hopefully that will come down.

The inconvenience for me is the current issue, I travel quite a lot and having to plan my travel around availability of charging points would be a hassle. The local Central mall has 2 ( or maybe 3 ) points for charging, not many for a busy mall !!, but other than that i don’t see any other charging points nearby.

Kudos to a couple of posters on here that have set up solar systems in house and use for charging their cars, seems like the way to go long term.

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, proton said:

Friend has a hybrid Yaris in Spain part ev part petrol. Starts in electric mode, does the first few kilometers in it then switches to petrol. Never seen one of those here but that would do us as our usual trip is 20k to the shops and back. No plugging in as it charges up while running somehow, not a silly price either.

There are plenty of those here.

All Thai Taxi uses them....   There are also plenty of other hyrbids such as the Toyota Camry, then there are plenty of Plug-in hybrids. 

 

Thus: These are a good alliterative and perhaps the best option if range is a concern rather than going ‘full EV’ - at least with the current tech. 

 

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, Henryford said:

Will there ever be a second hand market for EVs? I can see anyone buying a used EV with out of date tech and a clapped out battery. With out a used market how can they ever be popular. Not every one has 1-2 million for a new one.

That was one of my points, for those who change their ride ever say 3 years, probably not a problem, but for those who hang onto their ride, a big problem..

[proton]

Just now, Andrew Dwyer said:

Not necessarily.

If you want to go MG route ( the op doesn’t have to repeat his agenda on MG , we are all tired of that ) then the EP and the EV are a good price with the current government subsidies, but difficult to find at the moment.

The others, I agree , are expensive and hopefully that will come down.

The inconvenience for me is the current issue, I travel quite a lot and having to plan my travel around availability of charging points would be a hassle. The local Central mall has 2 ( or maybe 3 ) points for charging, not many for a busy mall !!, but other than that i don’t see any other charging points nearby.

Kudos to a couple of posters on here that have set up solar systems in house and use for charging their cars, seems like the way to go long term.

MG are Chinese so definitely would not even consider one no matter how cheap

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Toyota is onto that....????

Yes, but where have you ever seen a Toyota Mirai for sale ??

 

There seems to be a political push for EV’s but not hydrogen. 

[proton]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

There are plenty of those here.

All Thai Taxi uses them....   There are also plenty of other hyrbids such as the Toyota Camry, then there are plenty of Plug-in hybrids. 

 

Thus: These are a good alliterative and perhaps the best option if range is a concern rather than going ‘full EV’ - at least with the current tech. 

 

 

I thought taxis were all corolla and used gas? Yaris are far too small for 3 in the back

[KhunLA]

13 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Perhaps by then Thailand’s motor servicing trade has evolved to ‘switch out batteries’...  in much the same way people can switch out their engines... people have Mercedes with Toyota engines !... 

 

But, when the batteries of the EV cars built into the chassis mean changing a batter means virtually completely disassembling the vehicle the battery change out may be too expensive. 

 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

Is that car 8 years old, or are they getting it ready for 8 years time.....?   

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Is that car 8 years old, or are they getting it ready for 8 years time.....?   

I believe its a 5 minute alternative to a 30+ minute charging wait to top up.  Pretty cool really.  You simply pull in front of the station, and car auto parks itself into position.

 

China once again, way ahead of the rest of the world... Rock on

[Kwasaki]

7 minutes ago, proton said:

MG are Chinese so definitely would not even consider one no matter how cheap

Not even with a Union Jack on the roof and fuel cap. ????

[transam]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I believe its a 5 minute alternative to a 30+ minute charging wait to top up.  Pretty cool really.  You simply pull in front of the station, and car auto parks itself into position.

 

China once again, way ahead of the rest of the world... Rock on

I thought we were talking battery replacement, not you heading to the local MG dealer for juice........????

[Kwasaki]

A nuclear car engine would be good no fuel needed in its lifetime. 

[KhunLA]

16 minutes ago, transam said:

Hey, YOUR EV brand tells me that is their limit for the batteries for a warranty, not mine, if the batteries were that good at this time why state a warrantee of 8 years OR 100,000miles, which could be reached weeeeell before 8 years....

I believe the warranty is it won't degrade below 70% within those 8 yrs.  And I'd be hard pressed to put 200k kms on a car in 20 yrs now.  I won't be out & about as much, and I seemed to put 100-120k kms / 7 ish years on past cars.

 

I read most EVs get 1500-2000 cycles out of their batteries.  Using a very negative 1000 cycles for the MGs, and your looking at 400k kms before battery needs replacement.  That's a very negative estimate.  Use the 1500-2000 range and it's 600-800k kms.

 

..... nuff said

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

I thought we were talking battery replacement, not you heading to the local MG dealer for juice........????

If they have a 'swap' program in place, the replacement becomes a mute subject.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I believe the warranty is it won't degrade below 70% within those 8 yrs.  And I'd be hard pressed to put 200k kms on a car in 20 yrs now.  I won't be out & about as much, and I seemed to put 100-120k kms / 7 ish years on past cars.

 

I read most EVs get 1500-2000 cycles out of their batteries.  Using a very negative 1000 cycles for the MGs, and your looking at 400k kms before battery needs replacement.  That's a very negative estimate.  Use the 1500-2000 range and it's 600-800k kms.

 

..... nuff said

So why give a 160,000km battery guarantee, surely that is a head scratcher for a buyer...?   ????

[transam]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

If they have a 'swap' program in place, the replacement becomes a mute subject.

Does your MG have a swap program...?