1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Here is an interesting take from Alan Dershowitz- hardly a supporter of Trump;

 

The decision by the Justice Department to conduct a full-scale morning raid on Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Largo home does not seem justified, based on what we know as of now. If it is true that the basis of the raid was the former president’s alleged removal of classified material from the White House, that would constitute a double standard of justice.

There were no raids, for example, on the homes of Hillary Clinton or former Clinton administration national security adviser Sandy Berger for comparable allegations of mishandling official records in the recent past. Previous violations of the Presidential Records Act typically have been punished by administrative fines, not criminal prosecution. Perhaps there are legitimate reasons for applying a different standard to Trump’s conduct, but those are not readily obvious at this stage.

The more appropriate action would have been for a grand jury to issue a subpoena for any boxes of material that were seized and for Trump’s private safe that was opened. That would have given Trump’s lawyers the opportunity to challenge the subpoena on various grounds — that some of the material was not classified; that previous classified material was declassified by Trump; that other documents may be covered by various privileges, such as executive or lawyer-client.

 

 

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3594412-justice-department-should-have-subpoenaed-documents-not-raided-trumps-home/

Not regular Fox contributor Alan Dershowitz?  Not the Alan Dershowitz who "was a member of Harvey Weinstein's defense team in 2018 and of President Donald Trump's defense team in his first impeachment trial in 2020. He was a member of Jeffrey Epstein's defense team and helped to negotiate a 2006 non-prosecution agreement on Epstein's behalf."

 

Alan Dershowitz - Wikipedia

 

Now, not only are people denying they're Trump supporters, they are also denying that members of Trump's former legal team are Trump supporters. Someone should have warned him.

(By the way, That's fine company Trump is in).

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Although its all insignificant  to my point that the people at the very top gave permission for this raid .

  I'll give in another go :" Christopher H Wray , head of the FBI , would have given permission for this raid , as would his boss , Attorney General Merrick Garland " 

  Do you find that to be clear, understandable and correct ?

   There's no confusion about who is the boss of who and what ?

Kinda puts your claims of this being political in perspective;

 

Eric Trump's Accidental Confession About His Father

 

"One day after the FBI executed a search warrant on Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home, the son of the former president claimed that President Joe Biden must have approved the action and his reasoning was; That’s how it worked when Trump was in office.
Most modern presidents have taken pains to distance themselves from Justice Department operations with political implications. In this case, the White House said Biden found out about the search warrant the same way as everyone else: from the news."

“This, I’m hoping, goes beyond simply not complying with some archiving laws, or DOJ [the Department of Justice] just handed Donald Trump the Republican nominee and potentially the presidency,” Alyssa Farah Griffin, the former official, said on CNN.  

 

“If it’s seen as some sort of massive overreach and not something incredibly serious, this is a very good day for Donald Trump,” she added.     

 

It was far too early on Tuesday to know for sure how much the FBI raid signaled legal jeopardy for Trump, or just how the political reverberations would be felt in the November midterm elections and beyond.  

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3595050-fbi-thunderbolt-scrambles-political-predictions-on-trump/

13 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

USA's massive contribution to both NATO and the war effort generally had nothing to do with it? No diplomacy going on either? Sometimes you really like to push a line that is really improbable. If NATO was weakened as Trump tried to do they would have seen no point. They aren't getting weapons from NATO, they have their own. They are getting interoperability.

The reason why Finland and Sweden have applied to join NATO is because of the recent Russian aggression in Ukraine .

  Finland and Sweden applying to join NATO was not because any other reason, nothing to do with the USA or Biden .

   (The USAs contribution to NATO is besides the point as to why the two Countries applied to join)

“Unlike Trump, who explicitly politicized the DOJ, and every Republican who cheered him on as they now cry crocodile tears, Biden is doing the right thing by letting the DOJ and FBI — whose director is a lifelong Republican appointed by Trump — do their job without notice to or direction from the White House,” said Democratic strategist Eddie Vale.

------------------

 

“Get out of the way and stay out of the way and let him implode,” the strategist said. “He was bound to implode sooner or later. All the better now while Biden is gaining wins.”

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/3594888-biden-in-a-tough-spot-on-trump-after-fbi-mar-a-lago-search/

 

7 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Kinda puts your claims of this being political in perspective;

 

Eric Trump's Accidental Confession About His Father

 

"One day after the FBI executed a search warrant on Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home, the son of the former president claimed that President Joe Biden must have approved the action and his reasoning was; That’s how it worked when Trump was in office.
Most modern presidents have taken pains to distance themselves from Justice Department operations with political implications. In this case, the White House said Biden found out about the search warrant the same way as everyone else: from the news."

Actually, if that's how something worked in the Trump administration, it's a lot safer to assume that most likely it didn't and doesn't work like that in any other administration.

8 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Kinda puts your claims of this being political in perspective;

 

Stop right there .

I haven't claimed that this is Political

Anyway, carry on 

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The reason why Finland and Sweden have applied to join NATO is because of the recent Russian aggression in Ukraine .

  Finland and Sweden applying to join NATO was not because any other reason, nothing to do with the USA or Biden .

   (The USAs contribution to NATO is besides the point as to why the two Countries applied to join)

Previously they were cold on the idea because NATO was in decline due to neglect and adverse criticism from the Trump administration. That changed. I'm not denying that the Russian attack was the catalyst but you want to break everything down into simplistic reasoning. Neither country needed to be in NATO to defend against Russia. If the war got that far, the EU would have been involved, with or without NATO.

34 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well, apart from the fact that the U.K and France also have Nuclear weapons .

   I would prefer it if the U.K kept out the Ukraine/Russian war 

Yes, taking any sort of moral stand to aid innocents suffering unspeakable atrocities is so passe. Clearly Edmund Burke was so wrong.

The hate is blinding around here...bye, bye

1 hour ago, Walker88 said:

Gee, I see no argument.

 

NATO is now unified again. It's even adding two new members. 45 wanted to disband it, as he had no understanding of what it did for the world since its founding.

 

I find it astonishing how his cult believes all of his lies. It's either mass insanity or willful ignorance. 45 can grift all day long, and his cult keeps feeding him. It's a gaggle of old white losers who cannot accept responsibility for their own failures in life, and along comes 45 to give them both excuses and enemies to blame.

 

"Best economy ever" was one of his man spurious claims.

 

NOT     EVEN     CLOSE

 

A simple check of quarterly GDP figures going back to the end of WWII shows 45 to be a bottom dweller. That was BEFORE Covid. After Covid he sunk even lower.

 

Obama's job numbers and stock market while Obama served dwarf 45. Obama inherited a Recession and pulled the country out. 45 inherited growth and handed Biden a Recession.

 

What's worse, is that 45 added a 37% increase to the total national Debt, built up over 250 years. That is astonishing profligacy, and when debt growth exceeds GDP growth, that's called debt-fueled. Your neighbor maxes his credit cards buying a new F-150, a bassboat, a 50-cal Barrett sniper rifle, and pretends he's successful. Then the mailman comes with the bill. Seems he wasn't really killing it businesswise.

 

Now his cult is trying to come up with excuses why 45 should be forgiven for illegally removing and keeping classified docs, claiming it was in error and returning some of them (but keeping others). The same cult members joined in his chants of "Lock her up" for HRC's server, yet excuse what are likely massive security breaches of highly classified material. Pure hypocrisy.

 

I've written a lot already on the procedures involved in monitoring and tracking the most sensitive >TS material. The system would know what is missing (of hard copies made). The system would even know the date of printing hard copies and on whose printer.

 

45 is likely in deep trouble, He is coming to the realization he is not above the law.

All of your rant is rubbish.

 

That NATO maybe unified again is nothing to do with Biden. 

 

A simple check of quarterly GDP figures going back to the end of WWII shows 45 to be no worse than anyone else. Trump was handed Covid - Biden was handed vaccines. Despite that the US is still heading for stagflation and the mad spending on all these wonder bills will make it twice as bad as it needs to be.

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Previously they were cold on the idea because NATO was in decline due to neglect and adverse criticism from the Trump administration. That changed. I'm not denying that the Russian attack was the catalyst but you want to break everything down into simplistic reasoning. Neither country needed to be in NATO to defend against Russia. If the war got that far, the EU would have been involved, with or without NATO.

No quite .

We have seen how Russia invaded Ukraine and no other European Country directly stepped in to help Ukraine .

   Sweden and Finland were concerned about Russia invading them also and no other Country defending them .

   Once Sweden and Finland are members of NATO then other NATO Countries would defend them against the Russians .

Sweden and Finland want to join NATO as a deterrent against Russia invading them .

   Its really nothing to do with POTUS

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Allow me to clarify my position, again. I will keep it as simple as possible as the audience appears to be struggling.

 

• I am neither Republican nor Democrat.
• I like neither Trump nor Biden.
• I believe yesterday's unprecendented raid was politically motivated, and I believe in due course evidence will show my opinion to be correct.

 

I fail to see any reason those 3 positions cannot be held simultaneously.

The madding crowd won't agree, I'm afraid.

57 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Finland have been brave enough to fight  wars with Russia on their own and win those wars

Actually Finland didn't exactly win its last war with Russia, did it? Unless of course your idea of a win would be, for example, for Ukraine to settle for the current status quo in exchange for peace.

7 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Yes, taking any sort of moral stand to aid innocents suffering unspeakable atrocities is so passe. Clearly Edmund Burke was so wrong.

Yes, just like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam , doesn't always work out too well, does it 

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

No quite .

We have seen how Russia invaded Ukraine and no other European Country directly stepped in to help Ukraine .

   Sweden and Finland were concerned about Russia invading them also and no other Country defending them .

   Once Sweden and Finland are members of NATO then other NATO Countries would defend them against the Russians .

Sweden and Finland want to join NATO as a deterrent against Russia invading them .

   Its really nothing to do with POTUS

I think they would anyway. Unlike Ukraine, these countries have not recently been under Russian control, don't speak Russian, etc. A Russian invasion of either country would be intolerable for the west. Their invasion of Ukraine is also intolerable but the risk of a nuclear war prevents NATO involvement. That risk would not be a deterrent in the case of Sweden or Finland. There is no way they would allow Russia to invade those countries, regardless of any defense partnerships. I think that should be pretty obvious.

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually Finland didn't exactly win its last war with Russia, did it? Unless of course your idea of a win would be, for example, for Ukraine to settle for the current status quo in exchange for peace.

My mistake.

Which words should I have used ?

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Sweden and Finland applying to join NATO had nothing to do with Biden or the USA .

   Its Russia's war with Ukraine that is the reason why those Countries want to join NATO

Next you'll be telling us that the United States has nothing to do with NATO. How much confidence would Finland and Sweden have in NATO if the US wasn't a member?

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

My mistake.

Which words should I have used ?

It sacrificed territory for peace.

19 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Previously they were cold on the idea because NATO was in decline due to neglect and adverse criticism from the Trump administration. That changt that far, the EU would have been involved, with or without NATO.ed. I'm not denying that the Russian attack was the catalyst but you want to break everything down into simplistic reasoning. Neither country needed to be in NATO to defend against Russia. If the war go

Not again! Sweden and Finland preferred neutrality - that's it! The Russians changed their minds this year!

 

Any decline of NATO was self inflicted by countries like Germany not funding their own military budgets according to the treaty. Trump shamed Merkel & Co with this and suddenly extra money was promised.

 

The Russian invasion has resulted in even bigger European military budgets plus Sweden and Finland's request to join NATO.  If you think that the EU could defend Sweden and Finland without the US (NATO) then you are just dreaming.

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Allow me to clarify my position, again. I will keep it as simple as possible as the audience appears to be struggling.

 

• I am neither Republican nor Democrat.
• I like neither Trump nor Biden.
• I believe yesterday's unprecendented raid was politically motivated, and I believe in due course evidence will show my opinion to be correct.

 

I fail to see any reason those 3 positions cannot be held simultaneously.

Because you continuously ignore the words you type. AND you forget the fourth point of your list:

• I only use incendiary language when referring to one side of my neutral beliefs and I never mention anything about the other side.

 

Until your rhetoric is as "neutral" as you claim your beliefs to be, no one will believe you, even though you really do seem to believe it yourself.

 

Cognative dissonance.

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

And you may be shocked to learn this but there are some right wing extremists posting defenses of Trumps. These people actually believe that the 2020 elections were stolen and that Trump really won. Or that they have doubts about it. Just to be clear, I'm in no way accusing you of being that far gone.

2 posts ago you were arguing there were no hard leftists here. 

 

Now you're playing the "ah but there are also far right members".

 

Pick a position. Stick to it. 

 

 

A post with a trolling image has been reported and removed as well as the replies. 

2 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Because you continuously ignore the words you type. AND you forget the fourth point of your list:

• I only use incendiary language when referring to one side of my neutral beliefs and I never mention anything about the other side.

 

Until your rhetoric is as "neutral" as you claim your beliefs to be, no one will believe you, even though you really do seem to believe it yourself.

 

Cognative dissonance.

Because this thread is about the left using government agencies to harrass right wing politicians. 

 

If Trump is re-elected and Biden's house is suddenly getting raided by the FBI you will see me argue the same point from the Dem side. 

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Here is an interesting take from Alan Dershowitz- hardly a supporter of Trump;

 

The decision by the Justice Department to conduct a full-scale morning raid on Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Largo home does not seem justified, based on what we know as of now. If it is true that the basis of the raid was the former president’s alleged removal of classified material from the White House, that would constitute a double standard of justice.

There were no raids, for example, on the homes of Hillary Clinton or former Clinton administration national security adviser Sandy Berger for comparable allegations of mishandling official records in the recent past. Previous violations of the Presidential Records Act typically have been punished by administrative fines, not criminal prosecution. Perhaps there are legitimate reasons for applying a different standard to Trump’s conduct, but those are not readily obvious at this stage.

The more appropriate action would have been for a grand jury to issue a subpoena for any boxes of material that were seized and for Trump’s private safe that was opened. That would have given Trump’s lawyers the opportunity to challenge the subpoena on various grounds — that some of the material was not classified; that previous classified material was declassified by Trump; that other documents may be covered by various privileges, such as executive or lawyer-client.

 

 

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3594412-justice-department-should-have-subpoenaed-documents-not-raided-trumps-home/

Hardly a supporter of Trump? ????

He assisted Trump during his impeachment trial.

 

BTW, he was also part of the team which negotiated the infamous Epstein agreement under a GOP administration. ????

6 minutes ago, candide said:

Hardly a supporter of Trump? ????

He assisted Trump during his impeachment trial.

 

BTW, he was also part of the team which negotiated the infamous Epstein agreement under a GOP administration. ????

The good professor is a civil liberties advocate. He divorces his politics from his legal principles. As he said himself, 

 

 "I am a liberal Democrat in politics, but a neutral civil libertarian when it comes to the Constitution."

 

and 

 

 “I’m a strong supporter of Joe Biden. I like Joe Biden. I’ve liked him for a long time, and I could enthusiastically support Joe Biden.”

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz#cite_note-vanityfair-73

 

He DOES love to get involved in controversial cases, it is true.  A definite pot-stirrer. But not a Trump supporter in any meaningful or political sense. 

42 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Because this thread is about the left using government agencies to harrass right wing politicians. 

 

If Trump is re-elected and Biden's house is suddenly getting raided by the FBI you will see me argue the same point from the Dem side. 

Because this thread is about the left using government...

 

No, it isn't.  That is your "neutral" misrepresentation of the matter once again.  The thread is about a search warrant being served at Mar A Lago.  The loaded language is yours.

13 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Because this thread is about the left using government agencies to harrass right wing politicians. 

 

If Trump is re-elected and Biden's house is suddenly getting raided by the FBI you will see me argue the same point from the Dem side. 

"Because this thread is about the left using government agencies to harrass right wing politicians."

 

No, this thread is not about that. This thread is about an ex-"president" finding out that karma really is a b****, and that b**** is not happy about his p***y grabbing.

This raid would never have taken place without a mountain of evidence to support the request to the federal judge - not in a million years and it's time for trump to be afraid, very afraid, and it really couldn't have happened to a worse person.

 

"If Trump is re-elected and Biden's house is suddenly getting raided by the FBI you will see me argue the same point from the Dem side."

Forgive me when I tell you that I don't believe you....not in any shape or form.....actually, I would be more inclined to believe trump when he opens his mouth and his lips move....and we all know what happens then.

No offense.

2 hours ago, LaosLover said:

Good op ed in Wash Post bu Hugh Hewitt, a righty I respect, urging Trump to stop the drama queen BS and just show the warrant already.

 

Like his claim that he had Secret Service ready to testify that he didn't grab the wheel, it's time to put up or shut up.  Every day that oozes by makes him look shifty.

 

Show the warrant or shut up. Anyone disagree?

A mighty righty or just a standard righty?

6 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

"Because this thread is about the left using government agencies to harrass right wing politicians."

 

No, this thread is not about that. This thread is about an ex-"president" finding out that karma really is a b****, and that b**** is not happy about his p***y grabbing.

This raid would never have taken place without a mountain of evidence to support the request to the federal judge - not in a million years and it's time for trump to be afraid, very afraid, and it really couldn't have happened to a worse person.

 

"If Trump is re-elected and Biden's house is suddenly getting raided by the FBI you will see me argue the same point from the Dem side."

Forgive me when I tell you that I don't believe you....not in any shape or form.....actually, I would be more inclined to believe trump when he opens his mouth and his lips move....and we all know what happens then.

No offense.

There's no p***y grabbing mentioned in the headline. Are you dreaming again? No offense.