Thailand’s once mighty foreign tourism industry lastingly damaged with lower spends and numbers

[finnomick1]

Let's face it, Thailand is no longer a value-for-money holiday destination.  Manipulated economy,  landing fees, short visas, scams and corruption. Who wants to sit on a cramped expensive flight for several hours to put up with it all. There's far more attractive destinations on offer without all the <deleted>.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

This is probably more realistic reflection of currents trends upcountry. 

There are more Thais upcountry in rural Thailand, than in the cities.

[Mr Meeseeks]

17 hours ago, Sheryl said:

They need to address the unnecessarily cumbersome and difficult new evisa process.

 

It is completely absurd to require tourists from first world countries to submit proof of having $1,000 in the bank (most are paying that much or more just for the air ticket) to get a tourist visa.

 

And unreasonable to expect would be tourists to upload bank statements and similar sensitive documents to an insecure government website.

 

Most of the information demanded in the tourist visa application is unnecessary, can be hard to provide (people often want to select their hotel on arrival, for example) and it discourages people or leads them to instead come for a shorter time visa exempt.

 

Easy to increase tourists: (1) Extend the duration of visa exempt enter from 30 to 45 days as has been proposed.  (2) Change the evisa for tourist visas to a simple process like that used by Cambodia (nothing needed but name,. address, passport data).

Wow, their stupidity continues on an unmitigated scale.

 

They really have no clue.

[Mr Meeseeks]

17 hours ago, ukrules said:

This is one of my long standing gripes - it's destroying things slowly but surely everwhere they roll it out.

 

Auditing peoples bank accounts is fine if they want to move and live in a country permanently - doing the same thing for someone who wants to go on holiday is absolute insanity.

 

I agree, but you have to remember these people worship money and have dubious morals.

 

There's nothing wrong in doing this in their eyes.

 

Also, because they have to prove financial requirements to go to Western countries its probably a bit of tit for tat. 

[mania]

17 hours ago, billd766 said:

You were not there and as such you have NO idea what was said or what happened.

I prefer believe the person that it actually happened to, rather than a keyboard warrior who was not there and has no idea what was said.

 

And you were also not there and also have no actual idea what if anything was said there or if it is just another often told porker being passed along by some TV expat

 

We on the other hand do know many dual citizens that often travel on either passport including many Thai's

 

In either case nothing to do with topic but to finish the original claim by the other ...

Quote

It looks like you might be getting yourselves into a mess of trouble.  Thailand does not force people to have no dual citizenship, but they certainly do not like, and prefer not to know about, a Thai citizen becoming a citizen elsewhere as well.  This is why a Thai citizen should never show Thai immigration a foreign passport.

We will report back (unlikely ) if any such nonsense occurs. We now both have our 90 day type O visa's & will proceed as usual Thanks for the concern ????

[RichardColeman]

9 hours ago, racket said:

Westerners in particular don't see Thailand as what it once were.

Or they think it will be easier to get home from Spain rather than trapped 6000 miles away. It will take time for tourists to get confidence to travel back again

[sezze]

It isn't only travelling . Travel is recovering , and will continue ( well this y , might end sooner then expected this y ...) but there is more then just numbers . Economy in Europe is suffering hard , very hard , on energy prices . We are not talking about % over here , we are talking about 3 to 10 times more expensive . Most of the high spending tourists imho are European , maybe not the highest in individual numbers , but in general high number of tourist vs spending per tourist , make them the highest spending tourists . Thius is now hitting the people hard , very hard , and is starting to hit the companies also . So spending go down , you d**n right , "nobody" in these times will go crazy like before because they are worried about the future . Tourist numbers will rise the rest of this y , since many booked their plane tickets , but a lot more money will stay in the wallets . Covid worries , for most people are gone , but there's a different doom around , and it is very close to home .

[jacko45k]

21 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Or they think it will be easier to get home from Spain rather than trapped 6000 miles away. It will take time for tourists to get confidence to travel back again

Remember last time... they camped out at the airport expecting the authorities to take care of them....all spent up and only had the train fare from MAN to home in their pockets. 

[ross163103]

They'd have an extra 300 baht to spend if it wasn't going to be used as a "tourist tax" upon entering!

[OneMoreFarang]

10 hours ago, MrJ2U said:

18 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

"lastingly damaged"

 

And they know that after the Covid restrictions are lifted since maybe 1/2 years?

Yes, something/someone is definitely "lastingly damaged"...

Many hotels/restaurants are out of business.  Many that are still here have borrowed to the hilt.

 

Tourists will always come to Thailand though. 

Yes, tourists will always come. And if some owners are bankrupt then others will buy hotels, restaurants, bars, etc. - at least if they could be a profitable business.

I don't think the tourism industry is "lastingly damaged". It's just a temporary down. That is sad, especially for all those who lost a lot of money, but it will go away.

[connda]

The MSM is just catching up with the obvious? 

[DrJoy]

15 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

these people worship money

Wrong word worship ????

 

They VENERATE money

 

????

[BangkokReady]

5 hours ago, DrJoy said:

They VENERATE money

They fetishise it.

[Walker88]

I've been in Thailand for the entire Covid Era and have watched as the country re-opened. I have a pretty good of idea of who has come to visit and why they came.

 

Perhaps TAT could look at what is, rather than what it wants to pretend it is. Try to determine what Thailand's competitive advantage is and go after the demographic(s) to whom that appeals.

 

Most of the first arrivals were single men of various ages. I don't think any of them were coming for the temples. When things first began to open up, I would guesstimate 95% of arrivals were in this demographic. This demo eats, drinks, goes to agogos, and books hotels---both long and short term. Thailand may not like being a worldwide draw for the sort of thing attracting this demo, but it brings in a good bit of money. The earliest arriving single males were mostly Western, but over the last few months lots of East Asian single males are coming. This demo creates a lot of jobs, not all of which are carnal in nature, as the spillover also includes the entire food and beverage industry, hotel and restaurant workers, service staff, taxi drivers, etc.

 

Slowly I began to see a few families in the mix, mostly Western. This demographic probably visits famous tourist spots, takes a river/klong cruise, hits the malls, maybe goes to a beach area, and buys souvenirs in Night Markets (many of which have disappeared). They are a much lower percentage of arrivals than in the past, based on my own anecdotal evidence. Maybe those who dare grab the kids and fly for 10-24 hours have 'been there, done that' and already checked the box that says "Thailand". Plus, rapidly declining birth rates say this demo is an endangered species. Best not make it a long term target. (The first group, on the other hand, is never finished 'being there and doing that', as 'that' is an endless and repetitive urge.)

 

Then came the backpackers. The relaxed cannabis laws have enticed some of them, but the Millennial idea of 'experience' is what gets them moving. They've also watch The Beach a dozen times and seen videos of Full Moon Raves. Individually they might not spend much, but collectively they represent a decent take.

 

Now it's Indians. While some are families, anyone in Bangkok could be forgiven for thinking India has only males, no females. I guess the same is true in Pattaya. As the likely unfair and stereotypical joke goes, Thailand will welcome 20 million Indian visitors, so that takes care of two hotel rooms, but what about the other million rooms? Indians are the new Chinese in terms of Thai tourism. TAT has to come up with a strategy to draw the better heeled Indians, because it could be a huge and profitable market.

 

The old saw about folks coming for the temples was likely never true, and isn't going to become more true post-Covid. Seen one temple, seen them all is pretty accurate. A place like Ayutthaya, on the other hand, is quite interesting, but barely exploited. If it could be done without spoiling it, there's one draw. Angkor Wat draws a majority of visitors to Cambodia; Ayutthaya could be similar, particularly since Myanmar's Bagan is kind of off limits owing to the brutal coup.

 

Thailand also once made its name on being 'exotic'. With Bangkok's hundreds of high rises, the Skytrain, countless malls, and endless traffic jams, exotic it ain't. Some parts of the countryside, with rice paddies and quaint villages, might still fit the Westerner's view of exotic, but globalization has kind of killed exotic, save for maybe Bhutan or Sikkim, possibly Laos. No point beating a horse long since dead. Most of what the average tourist will see is Western in style, though still Eastern in thought.

 

Finally, one never-ending, fairly well-to-do demographic is the retiree who prefers to avoid Western winters. Create a Seasonal Visa---say 6 months---for folks who want to come during the cold season back home. Older and richer, these folks are not going to be Anutin's 'dirty farangs'. They are unlikely to be troublemakers, but very likely to stay in a better hotel or beach condo, dine out most nights, and do a fair amount of shopping. They will watch traditional Thai dance shows and think it's great (it is lovely), and they will be interested in Thai cooking classes. As the Boomers age in the West, this demo is going to be growing for another decade or two.

 

It's unlikely Thailand is ever going to see 40 million tourists a year again. Best the country address the issues that ail it---like air quality and cleanliness---and be realistic about what draws people:  nightlife, partying/celebration, and warm winters.

[mania]

On 8/31/2022 at 7:23 PM, Banana7 said:

You're kidding? The prices on United from YYZ to BKK round trip use to be CAD$1000 to $1300. Now the cheapest is CAD$2997. See attached.

UnitedFlights.docx 278.29 kB · 0 downloads

We booked for Thru United

3 of the legs are United operated by ANA & the final leg home United

Purchase summary

1 senior (65+) $759.20

1 adult (18-64) $759.20

Taxes and fees$224.14

Total$1,742.54

 

 

You need to know how to look

Use Google flights & see then go direct to site & book

Difference between a few days if your flight date is flexible makes a big difference

 

Yes we use to fly Korean/JAL & China for 1400-1800 Pre-Covid but this was pretty much the same

Plus United had a deal to drop the price another $250 to apply for their Chase Card

Worth it so we did

So actual price for two round trip US to Bangkok was $1492

So yeah not kidding ????

[chalawaan]

Thailand is one of the very lucky nations that has 100% food security.

Global famine is coming.

Any smart government would be spending money on farmer education, and mechanised tools, instead of sycophantic and nationalistic promotion, and tanks. 

[chalawaan]

32 minutes ago, mania said:

We booked for Thru United

3 of the legs are United operated by ANA & the final leg home United

Purchase summary

1 senior (65+) $759.20

1 adult (18-64) $759.20

Taxes and fees$224.14

Total$1,742.54

 

 

You need to know how to look

Use Google flights & see then go direct to site & book

Difference between a few days if your flight date is flexible makes a big difference

 

Yes we use to fly Korean/JAL & China for 1400-1800 Pre-Covid but this was pretty much the same

Plus United had a deal to drop the price another $250 to apply for their Chase Card

Worth it so we did

So actual price for two round trip US to Bangkok was $1492

So yeah not kidding ????

ANA are brilliant, a far cry from United in service, you'll actually enjoy rather than endure the flight! Bon voyage! 

[Robin]

Not surprising, as Thailand has made entry as difficult as possible with on-line e-visas, nd every other restriction TAT can dream up in their never-ending quest for QUALITY tourists.  Truth is, Thailand never had QUALITY tourists, only normal people looking for a cheap and easy place to have fun, which Thailan was geared up to provide.

[mania]

23 minutes ago, chalawaan said:

ANA are brilliant, a far cry from United in service, you'll actually enjoy rather than endure the flight! Bon voyage! 

Thanks & glad to hear that!

I did look up their reputation before booking & it was as you said quite good!

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/1/2022 at 10:18 AM, AsianAtHeart said:

 

 

It is my understanding that international laws state that a citizen of a country can use even an expired passport to return to the country of his or her citizenship.  Your wife should not need any "emergency" travel document, provided she is not attempting to use her Thai passport to visit other countries--merely using it to return to her own.

I agree, and that would be my first option in the event of having to do such, provided the airline would agree to carry her.

Once in LOS I understand it doesn't take long to renew a passport.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, Walker88 said:

It's unlikely Thailand is ever going to see 40 million tourists a year again. Best the country address the issues that ail it---like air quality and cleanliness---and be realistic about what draws people:  nightlife, partying/celebration, and warm winters.

One can only hope that is true. 40 million a year were ruining the country ( look what happened to Maya Bay ).

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/1/2022 at 8:55 PM, mjakob007 said:

Apparently the new pricing structure from agogo industry (BF ranging from 1500-2500) would also discourage patrons from participating

My jaw hit the floor at that. At first I thought it was cheaper long time prices, till I read it again.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/1/2022 at 4:13 PM, hotchilli said:

Since 2014... that's the truth about Thailand in general... tourism & commerce.

IMO since 2000.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/1/2022 at 6:39 PM, BostonRob2 said:

That's funny it looked like that in the 1980s.

 

Rooster

Certainly looked like that when I lived there for a year prior to covid.

[mania]

26 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I agree, and that would be my first option in the event of having to do such, provided the airline would agree to carry her.

Once in LOS I understand it doesn't take long to renew a passport.

Unfortunately that is not possible from a Western Country

No airline will risk transporting you with a expired passport as they would be liable for your return flight

 

But again all of this "talk" is a storm in a teacup

 

1- Yes very easy to renew That Passport once back in Thailand

 

2- You can do a emergency travel document but it is a long haul that can only be started 30 days before your exit not sooner

 

3- Dual citizens are not frowned upon in Thailand

My wife applied for her 90 day type O to visit family with her US passport directly thru  [email protected]

That is Thailand Immigration themselves not the LA Consulate.

They started the emergency travel paper & when we decided to use US passport instead to make

booking etc easier their answer was Ok Ka

 

So if anyone was going to complain it would be Thai immigration themselves. Instead they issued her a 90 day Type O on her US passport to visit family

At that time yes we will renew her Thai passport for next years 3 month visit

 

Lastly I hope this actual/factual of one Thai/US citizens return might help other expat Thai's in the same situation as many were caught out due to Covid country closures & US Thai consulate mobile services also being shut down at times

 

 

[Blumpie]

Its the height of stupidity when Thailand tourism talks about capitalizing on Indian weddings.  

What an unmitigated disaster.

[overherebc]

On 9/3/2022 at 9:30 AM, Walker88 said:

I've been in Thailand for the entire Covid Era and have watched as the country re-opened. I have a pretty good of idea of who has come to visit and why they came.

 

Perhaps TAT could look at what is, rather than what it wants to pretend it is. Try to determine what Thailand's competitive advantage is and go after the demographic(s) to whom that appeals.

 

Most of the first arrivals were single men of various ages. I don't think any of them were coming for the temples. When things first began to open up, I would guesstimate 95% of arrivals were in this demographic. This demo eats, drinks, goes to agogos, and books hotels---both long and short term. Thailand may not like being a worldwide draw for the sort of thing attracting this demo, but it brings in a good bit of money. The earliest arriving single males were mostly Western, but over the last few months lots of East Asian single males are coming. This demo creates a lot of jobs, not all of which are carnal in nature, as the spillover also includes the entire food and beverage industry, hotel and restaurant workers, service staff, taxi drivers, etc.

 

Slowly I began to see a few families in the mix, mostly Western. This demographic probably visits famous tourist spots, takes a river/klong cruise, hits the malls, maybe goes to a beach area, and buys souvenirs in Night Markets (many of which have disappeared). They are a much lower percentage of arrivals than in the past, based on my own anecdotal evidence. Maybe those who dare grab the kids and fly for 10-24 hours have 'been there, done that' and already checked the box that says "Thailand". Plus, rapidly declining birth rates say this demo is an endangered species. Best not make it a long term target. (The first group, on the other hand, is never finished 'being there and doing that', as 'that' is an endless and repetitive urge.)

 

Then came the backpackers. The relaxed cannabis laws have enticed some of them, but the Millennial idea of 'experience' is what gets them moving. They've also watch The Beach a dozen times and seen videos of Full Moon Raves. Individually they might not spend much, but collectively they represent a decent take.

 

Now it's Indians. While some are families, anyone in Bangkok could be forgiven for thinking India has only males, no females. I guess the same is true in Pattaya. As the likely unfair and stereotypical joke goes, Thailand will welcome 20 million Indian visitors, so that takes care of two hotel rooms, but what about the other million rooms? Indians are the new Chinese in terms of Thai tourism. TAT has to come up with a strategy to draw the better heeled Indians, because it could be a huge and profitable market.

 

The old saw about folks coming for the temples was likely never true, and isn't going to become more true post-Covid. Seen one temple, seen them all is pretty accurate. A place like Ayutthaya, on the other hand, is quite interesting, but barely exploited. If it could be done without spoiling it, there's one draw. Angkor Wat draws a majority of visitors to Cambodia; Ayutthaya could be similar, particularly since Myanmar's Bagan is kind of off limits owing to the brutal coup.

 

Thailand also once made its name on being 'exotic'. With Bangkok's hundreds of high rises, the Skytrain, countless malls, and endless traffic jams, exotic it ain't. Some parts of the countryside, with rice paddies and quaint villages, might still fit the Westerner's view of exotic, but globalization has kind of killed exotic, save for maybe Bhutan or Sikkim, possibly Laos. No point beating a horse long since dead. Most of what the average tourist will see is Western in style, though still Eastern in thought.

 

Finally, one never-ending, fairly well-to-do demographic is the retiree who prefers to avoid Western winters. Create a Seasonal Visa---say 6 months---for folks who want to come during the cold season back home. Older and richer, these folks are not going to be Anutin's 'dirty farangs'. They are unlikely to be troublemakers, but very likely to stay in a better hotel or beach condo, dine out most nights, and do a fair amount of shopping. They will watch traditional Thai dance shows and think it's great (it is lovely), and they will be interested in Thai cooking classes. As the Boomers age in the West, this demo is going to be growing for another decade or two.

 

It's unlikely Thailand is ever going to see 40 million tourists a year again. Best the country address the issues that ail it---like air quality and cleanliness---and be realistic about what draws people:  nightlife, partying/celebration, and warm winters.

All that sounds good. Only problem is that Thais in the industry decide what you will like and enjoy doing.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, Blumpie said:

Its the height of stupidity when Thailand tourism talks about capitalizing on Indian weddings.  

What an unmitigated disaster.

Clutching, and straws comes to mind.

[newnative]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

One can only hope that is true. 40 million a year were ruining the country ( look what happened to Maya Bay ).

     I agree.  When I arrived in 2010, I think the figure was around 16 million that year.  Seemed like a manageable amount of tourists.  Busy, but not so busy it was unpleasant.  2019 was way too busy, in my opinion.  Living in Pattaya, I felt the infrastructure could not handle the numbers visiting that year.  Pattaya seems to be getting fairly busy now, especially on weekends, with a number of domestic visitors.  International visitors to Thailand are less than 5 million so far this year.  If Pattaya is starting to feel busy at times now at 5 million, what's it going to be like at 20 million, let alone 40?

     Just one example.  A few weeks ago my partner and I, who now live on the Darkside, decided to drive into Pattaya on the Motorway around 3pm on a Friday.  The Motorway is super convenient for where we live--we can drive from our house by Lake Mabprachan to South Pattaya Road without a single traffic light until we get there.

    We know weekends are busy but we thought 3pm was early enough.  Wrong.  The traffic was way backed up at the traffic light to turn right onto Sukhumvit.  Lots of traffic stuck on the Motorway waiting to go to North Pattaya Road--which takes them to the beach, Terminal 21, Beach Road, and all the big, new hotels that are now in the vicinity of T21.   That was where we were headed, too. 

     A true mess at the intersection.  We ended up changing our plans and went left instead.  And, remember, we are at less than 5 million international tourists, not 2019's 40 million.  What's the intersection going to be like when the hundreds of tourist buses get up and running again?  Pity Pattaya did not use the quiet covid years to construct the planned tunnel under North Pattaya Road--or an overpass.  

[chalawaan]

On 9/1/2022 at 10:55 AM, AsianAtHeart said:

I am well aware that people can hold multiple passports.  That is not the issue.  Thailand, technically, does not care.  But a Thai citizen is never supposed to use another passport, other than his or her Thai passport, to enter Thailand.  That is what we were told in no uncertain terms.

 

You may not appreciate the information....yet.  You may regret having gone this route with your wife later when the experience becomes your own.  Some get away with it, some don't. 

This is absolutely correct! Missus former husband was a Thais/US citizen. Old school, had to "impress" immigration by departing (no problem) then returning on US passport. Well, the guacamole dip hit the fan then! Banged up for hours and paid a steep fine for his pains. 

ALL countries require citizens to enter and leave with their native passports. No exceptions.