Big Joke says he's investigating Immigration from top to bottom : 27 cops in headlights

[Scouse123]

On 12/13/2022 at 6:41 PM, Surasak said:

There are other reasons for using an agent than the usual financial requirements. I now of a few people who use an agent, including myself who have the financial wherewithal. None of these people consider they are paying a 'bribe' for a service provided and I can say you would be met with total contempt if you suggested it. When mud is thrown some of it has a tendency to stick, might I suggest you be a little more careful when using a black pot of paint?

You are paying an agent.

 

That ' fee ' and many other ' fees ' from other people following this route is then divided between corrupt immigration officials and the agent and whoever else is ' in the loop ' to look the other way such as secretaries who enter the data etc.

 

This is done to circumvent the rules and this is why many who are living in Isaarn are given an address in Pattaya for the benefit of obtaining a retirement extension. They must also use this fictitious address and pretend they live there for 90 reports etc.

 

Therefore Smedley is correct. It's bribery and it is a corrupt practice.

 

It is this behaviour that keeps ' tea money ' and ' corruption ' rife in Thailand and people who subscribe to it are part of that problem, as the point is, if there weren't people going along with this corrupt practice it would fizzle out and die.

 

This is why when they get caught, the offending Immigration officers and their teams are broken up and moved all over the country and on occasion, to inactive posts.

 

Just because it's the ' norm ' or we have done it this way a ' long time ' doesn't make it legal or correct and nor does it make it a ' service fee '

[Scouse123]

On 12/13/2022 at 1:49 PM, champers said:

When he has done with rooting out the bad Chinese will he move onto the bad Indians, Russians, Brits, Aussies, Koreans, etc?

From today's news it seems that Japanese gangsters are next on his hit list. Yakuza beware!

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Artisi]

2 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

You are paying an agent.

 

That ' fee ' and many other ' fees ' from other people following this route is then divided between corrupt immigration officials and the agent and whoever else is ' in the loop ' to look the oher way such as secretaries who enter the data etc.

 

This is done to circumvent the rules and this is why many who are living in Isaarn are given an address in Pattaya for the benefit of obtaining a retirement extension. They must also use this fictitious address and pretend they live there for 90 reports etc.

 

Therefore Smedley is correct. It's bribery and it is a corrupt practice.

 

It is this behaviour that keeps ' tea money ' and ' corruption ' rife in Thailand and people who subscribe to it are part of that problem, as the point is, if there weren't people going along with this corrupt practice it would fizzle out and die.

 

This is why when they get caught, the offending Immigration officers and their teams are broken up and moved all over the country and on occasion, to inactive posts.

 

Just because it's the ' norm ' or we have done it this way a ' long time ' doesn't make it legal or correct and nor does it make it a ' service fee '

Correct, if you are using these so called agents to facilitate your visa extension because you don't have the necessary financial or other requirements to comply and they by what ever means is used to obtain your extension, it's illegal.

Now if the I. O. grants the extension based of false information, either from the goodness of his heart (very unlikely) but by accepting money to sign-off on the paperwork - - that's a bribe. 

The cure of course is that the passport holder must present themselves along with the correct information as is already done by the vast majority of people applying for an extension. 

All dodgy a/holes should be shown the exit door. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Artisi

[nigelforbes]

On 12/13/2022 at 5:15 PM, jacko45k said:

It requires extra paperwork at Extension renewal time and forces you to move money when perhaps rates are not good... and if you are late one month, potentially no Extension. Works for people on regular income like a pension I guess.

I think a better approach is to take the 400k (if married) and lock it away in a  fixed deposit and forget about it. Every year you can roll out the bank book to show Immigration before putting it back into the desk drawer.

[jacko45k]

Just now, nigelforbes said:

I think a better approach is to take the 400k (if married) and lock it away in a  fixed deposit and forget about it. Every year you can roll out the bank book to show Immigration before putting it back into the desk drawer.

Yes I have done this.... it works if one has the 'spare' cash. You of course have to update the bank book just prior to renewal time too..I tend to draw the interest out at the same time and have a special treat!

[nigelforbes]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Yes I have done this.... it works if one has the 'spare' cash. You of course have to update the bank book just prior to renewal time too..I tend to draw the interest out at the same time and have a special treat!

I don't even have to do the update, the fix is for one year and still has three months to run, by the time I extend my visa. The entry in the book shows the deposit and as long as there's no withdrawal, the deposit is still good.

Edited December 17, 2022 by nigelforbes
I can't spell, OK, happy now. :)

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

I don't even have to do the update, the fix is for one year and still has three months to run, by the time I extend my visa. The entry in the book shows the deposit and as long as there's no withdrawal, the deposit is still good.

Immigration usually want to see a very recent update.... but you are probably correct as any withdrawal does require the book, and it would get an update... unlike a savings account. 

[nigelforbes]

17 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Immigration usually want to see a very recent update.... but you are probably correct as any withdrawal does require the book, and it would get an update... unlike a savings account. 

Not to dwell too long on this point but my bank (UOB) tells me it's not possible to update a book for a fixed deposit. Each fix is uniquely numbered, an addition to the account would be a new fix, partial withdrawals are not allowed, interest is calculated at the end of the fix.

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Not to dwell too long on this point but my bank (UOB) tells me it's not possible to update a book for a fixed deposit. Each fix is uniquely numbered, an addition to the account would be a new fix, partial withdrawals are not allowed, interest is calculated at the end of the fix.

It varies from bank to bank... you are correct that some do not do a print line if no transactions have been made, I only know my Bangkok Bank one will get a dated B/F Update line each time I insert into the machine. 

[Gknrd]

Sounds like Big joke  is going to be reassigned a desk job again before long.   

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, nigelforbes said:

I think a better approach is to take the 400k (if married) and lock it away in a  fixed deposit and forget about it. Every year you can roll out the bank book to show Immigration before putting it back into the desk drawer.

That's exactly what I've done for nearly 20 years, update it and get the necessary bank letter the day before applying for my extension - easy stress and hassle free. 

[itsari]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:22 PM, smedly said:

by far the biggest corrupt practice involving IO I have observed over years is when people use agents to circumvent the financial requirements for 12 month extensions, pretty much every person I know uses an agent and does not meet the financial requirements "in Thailand" for either bank balance or income, bribes are paid to circumvent the rules

Your observations are pure speculation and ignorance of the facts . 

 

[ozz1]

I do the deposit method it's not that hard just as long as your deposits are over the amount every month and update on the day you go no problems

[nigelforbes]

36 minutes ago, itsari said:

Your observations are pure speculation and ignorance of the facts . 

 

I don't know how it is possible for you to deem another posters observations as pure speculation and ignorance but for what it's worth those observations are mine also. I don't personally know anyone who uses the illegal approach but I know of many on this forum who have said they do. It's a huge money business, as the recent crack down has shown, I can't think of any other aspect of Immi. that has such potential for illegal wealth creation. You know that must be true when so many dodgy agents are involved in the business.

[nigelforbes]

26 minutes ago, ozz1 said:

I do the deposit method it's not that hard just as long as your deposits are over the amount every month and update on the day you go no problems

"just as long as", and there's the rub! Fluctuating exchange rates, bank errors, bank holidays in a month, human error, it's great as long as works well and as expected but it's a major calamity when it doesn't.

[MRToMRT]

Smoke and mirrors, its just for the media. Some Somchai at the lowest level will be forced to fall on his sword or we will never hear anything about it again.

[itsari]

17 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

I don't know how it is possible for you to deem another posters observations as pure speculation and ignorance but for what it's worth those observations are mine also. I don't personally know anyone who uses the illegal approach but I know of many on this forum who have said they do. It's a huge money business, as the recent crack down has shown, I can't think of any other aspect of Immi. that has such potential for illegal wealth creation. You know that must be true when so many dodgy agents are involved in the business.

There are dodgy operators in every profession.

To say the help foreigners get from having a lack of funds to stay ln Thailand appears to be an accepted practice. To say that it is corruption is speculation .

Have a good day 

[Enzian]

13 hours ago, JensenZ said:

No one is bribing immigration officials. The service is sanctioned by immigration officials.

This is the crux of the matter that keeps coming up. It's fresh to me because I just renewed for 1900 baht 5 days ago with bank letter, monthly printouts, and bank book photo copies showing monthly activity and current balance of over 1.2 mil. Now either that 800,000 requirement is a hard and fast rule written in the instructions IOs must follow, or it is an option, the other option being that top IOs have legal discretion to do it differently on a case by case basis. NO ONE HAS ESTABLISHED WHICH IT IS. If it is the first, then corruption is the system, and bribery exists. If the latter, then there's nothing to talk about, we're wasting our time. I'd appreciate a truly informed view on this.

[nigelforbes]

1 hour ago, itsari said:

There are dodgy operators in every profession.

To say the help foreigners get from having a lack of funds to stay ln Thailand appears to be an accepted practice. To say that it is corruption is speculation .

Have a good day 

Robbery and murder are also accepted practices, I suppose those things are not illegal either!

[nigelforbes]

37 minutes ago, Enzian said:

This is the crux of the matter that keeps coming up. It's fresh to me because I just renewed for 1900 baht 5 days ago with bank letter, monthly printouts, and bank book photo copies showing monthly activity and current balance of over 1.2 mil. Now either that 800,000 requirement is a hard and fast rule written in the instructions IOs must follow, or it is an option, the other option being that top IOs have legal discretion to do it differently on a case by case basis. NO ONE HAS ESTABLISHED WHICH IT IS. If it is the first, then corruption is the system, and bribery exists. If the latter, then there's nothing to talk about, we're wasting our time. I'd appreciate a truly informed view on this.

Even if I/O's did have legal discretion, which on their own authority they almost certainly don't, influencing that discretion buy offering a financial incentive is bribery and corruption in any profession, in any country. 

[proton]

1 hour ago, itsari said:

There are dodgy operators in every profession.

To say the help foreigners get from having a lack of funds to stay ln Thailand appears to be an accepted practice. To say that it is corruption is speculation .

Have a good day 

No, bribery and corruption is a fact not speculation. Those getting extensions by such illegal means will always try to prentend it's not though.

[Enzian]

12 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Even if I/O's did have legal discretion, which on their own authority they almost certainly don't, influencing that discretion buy offering a financial incentive is bribery and corruption in any profession, in any country.

"in any country" is the hard part I would submit. Places and cultures (culture is higher than law here I would argue) around the world differ more than we can imagine. East is east and west is west and sometime they don't meet--that's the limitation in my previous comment. Clarity would be nice but maybe we will never get it. But I would further argue that it is all such a mess that the whole system should be scraped and started over in a way with a greater appearance of fairness and equity. Drop the 800K requirement. The east for centuries has been moving slowly toward the west. Keep it up, and hope that China doesn't take us all down before it happens.

[Neeranam]

This has to start with visa agents.  I see them openly advertised, even saw a huge sign for one on the Bkk-Chonburi highway.

21 minutes ago, Enzian said:

Drop the 800K requirement. The east for centuries has been moving slowly toward the west. Keep it up, and hope that China doesn't take us all down before it happens.

I think that is a generous amount. If I want to retire to the US, I would have to INVEST 17 million baht. There should be some kind of reciprocation. 

People are  happy  about Thailand being a developing country on one hand, then on the other want it to be like the West.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Neeranam

[nigelforbes]

25 minutes ago, Enzian said:

"in any country" is the hard part I would submit. Places and cultures (culture is higher than law here I would argue) around the world differ more than we can imagine. East is east and west is west and sometime they don't meet--that's the limitation in my previous comment. Clarity would be nice but maybe we will never get it. But I would further argue that it is all such a mess that the whole system should be scraped and started over in a way with a greater appearance of fairness and equity. Drop the 800K requirement. The east for centuries has been moving slowly toward the west. Keep it up, and hope that China doesn't take us all down before it happens.

Lots of folks want to wiggle and slip slide on this and using broad vagueness doesn't help either. In its basic form, giving money to another person in order to influence their opinion, judgement or action is bribery and corruption. It doesn't change anything if this is the East, West of the Middle, it doesn't change anything if there are cultural differences and it doesn't change anything if culture frequently influences legal decisions. There is no need for greater clarity, but there is a need for lots of people to stop trying to argue that black is green and white is pink, no matter how much they would like it to be so because it helps them justify their crime. Just because there is distance between the buyer and seller of services, aka an agent, doesn't make mean the buyer can claim total innocence or ignorance of the law and the service they are buying, they are a party to the crime. Neither is the buyer entitled to question whether the law actually intended something different, not everyone can be a judge these days! Nor are buyers of the service able to imply that all I/O's have discretion on their own authority, that's nothing more than clutching at straws  in order to justify their actions. Give it up, it is what it is. And if it wasn't, all those senior Immi officers who are currently under investigation would be pleading exactly the same case that many posters here are, I exercised my discretion, there is no case to answer.

 

 

[itsari]

1 hour ago, nigelforbes said:

Robbery and murder are also accepted practices, I suppose those things are not illegal either!

Robbery and murder accepted practices ???

Poor argument.

Agents helping foreigners regarding financial requirements has been going on for at least 20 years.

[nigelforbes]

4 minutes ago, itsari said:

Robbery and murder accepted practices ???

Poor argument.

Agents helping foreigners regarding financial requirements has been going on for at least 20 years.

Only the scale and nature of the crime has changed, it's still crime.

 

"helping" using bribery and corruption.

 

I suspect I'm calling your kid ugly, sorry, but that's what it is.

Edited December 18, 2022 by nigelforbes

[itsari]

1 hour ago, proton said:

No, bribery and corruption is a fact not speculation. Those getting extensions by such illegal means will always try to prentend it's not though.

There is no fact in that the help given is illegal or corrupt.

There is no pretending needed.

Please show show us all where there has been a conviction for bribery concerning extension in the past.

When you move a fence on property and nobody objects the land can be one your own .

Same applies with the extensions.

[itsari]

2 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Only the scale and nature of the crime has changed, it's still crime.

 

"helping" using bribery and corruption.

 

I suspect I'm calling your kid ugly, sorry, but that's what it is.

It is you saying it is a crime and no authority is ready to agree with you .

[nigelforbes]

1 minute ago, itsari said:

It is you saying it is a crime and no authority is ready to agree with you .

You mean you're not ready to agree with me. If you don't get that bribery and corruption is a crime, we have nothing to debate, you are plain and simple in denial.

[Banana7]

Jomtien office is doing a very thorough check of all ED and non-o visas and extensions thereof. Instead of taking 1 day to issue an extension, now it is 3 business days.  They are checking who was involved when the original visa was issued and if everthing was done properly, according to regulations. Also verifing the authenticity of all documents submitted to get the extension.

 

Are any other offices taking longer to approve extensions of long-term visas? 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Banana7