1 minute ago, ThailandRyan said:

Can you clarify your post please.  Who exactly are you referring to as Running Scared?  Trumps supporters?

Republican candidates must now vociferously defend the guy they are running against.

 

I don't think this has happened in the history of the world. What's your reason for running if your opponent losing or going to jail means the end of Western Civilization?

 

So yeah, Pence ran away from even a soft ball interview with the same speed that he ran away from the noose.

 

It's all fun and games today, decrying Federalism. Come Tuesday, when the indictment is read, they're forced to double down and suffer the death by a thousand cuts as Trump continues to embarrass them.

 

They can only cry hoax for so long. At some point, they have to talk about the actual case and stop blaming the Biden Crime Family. 

35 minutes ago, riclag said:

Trump didnt steal documents !As Potus he declassified them in a memo!

 He was negotiating with gov agencies as had been reported!

Now its in the courts hands!

It seems you missed this information:

The use of Section 793, which does not make reference to classified information, is understood to be a strategic decision by prosecutors that has been made to short-circuit Mr Trump’s ability to claim that he used his authority as president to declassify documents he removed from the White House and kept at his Palm Beach, Florida property long after his term expired on 20 January 2021.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-indictment-espionage-prosecution-charges-b2353397.html

The headline is somewhat misleading.  It sounds more like multiple counts of making false statements and conspiracy.  I have held two US Government Security clearances(DOD and DOS) rarely I have seen anyone prosecuted for mishandling or not properly storing classified materials.  Most lose their security clearances.  The key distinction would be if Donald Trump had actually provided access to classified documents to a non cleared person.  Of course the full indictment has not been released so the extent of the seven counts is not known.

 

For context retired Army General David Patraeus plead guilty to one count of providing classified information to his then mistress Paula Broadwell.  Patraeus plead to a misdemeanor and paid a fine.  So in US Government versus Donald Trump I hope the making false statements and conspiracy cases are strong because the improperly handling classified materials is not as big deal as many would hope for in criminal court.  The only caveat is if Donald Trump had given access to classified information to any foreign national? This has not been indicated as of yet.  

 

I have never voted for Donald Trump and I have never owned a “MAGA” hat or shirt.  I just experience in accessing, handling and storing classified information in accordance with NISPOM(National Information Security Program Operating Manual).  

43 minutes ago, riclag said:

Trump didnt steal documents !As Potus he declassified them in a memo!

 He was negotiating with gov agencies as had been reported!

Now its in the courts hands!

Wrong. 100% wrong.

 

The declassification process is not done by a memo. I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it is wrong.

 

Because of the nature of classification, sometimes involving 'sources and methods', there is a process. Agency heads must be alerted to the intent of declassification, and they must be allowed time to redact portions that might threaten clandestine assets or operations, or to present an argument that declassification will threaten national security. A POTUS' authority does not supercede that.

 

There must be a paper trail for the entire process, with the proper signatories being in agreement. Certainly a POTUS cannot 'think' declassification in his mind, as trump first claimed. WH counsel would have been involved every step of the way, and under oath WH counsel has already stated that this procedure was not followed.

 

trump did none of what is required by law to declassify. He merely had boxes packed with documents he wanted to keep and had them shipped to his home. No record of any declassification of any documents exists, much less thousands of documents. Plus, even a POTUS has no right to retain documents with HCS (Human Clandestine Sources) stamps. There is a very good reason for that, as if a source's identity is revealed, he and his family are in danger. trump had documents stamped HCS.

 

trump also lied about having returned documents, which is why eventually the FBI had to search his house.

 

ANYONE else who acted in the manner trump has would already be in jail.

 

What will be interesting/amusing is to see what his defense will be. Why did he take the documents? What did he intend to do with them? Why did he lie to the DoJ when they asked if he had returned everything?

9 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

The headline is somewhat misleading.  It sounds more like multiple counts of making false statements and conspiracy.  I have held two US Government Security clearances(DOD and DOS) rarely I have seen anyone prosecuted for mishandling or not properly storing classified materials.  Most lose their security clearances.  The key distinction would be if Donald Trump had actually provided access to classified documents to a non cleared person.  Of course the full indictment has not been released so the extent of the seven counts is not known.

 

For context retired Army General David Patraeus plead guilty to one count of providing classified information to his then mistress Paula Broadwell.  Patraeus plead to a misdemeanor and paid a fine.  So in US Government versus Donald Trump I hope the making false statements and conspiracy cases are strong because the improperly handling classified materials is not as big deal as many would hope for in criminal court.  The only caveat is if Donald Trump had given access to classified information to any foreign national? This has not been indicated as of yet.  

 

I have never voted for Donald Trump and I have never owned a “MAGA” hat or shirt.  I just experience in accessing, handling and storing classified information in accordance with NISPOM(National Information Security Program Operating Manual).  

There's a major difference between inadvertently leaving a classified document out of the safe overnight, or out of a SCIF, and willfully taking documents to one's home when one did not even have a security clearance (POTUSs do not have a clearance, and the second one is an ex-POTUS, the mere possession of a classified document is violation of the law.) If it is inadvertent, and one fully cooperates with the retrieval (Biden, Pence), charges are not filed. If one not only does not cooperate, but lies, one is indicted. trump had zero right to those documents, his intent remains unknown, and he lied about having them.

 

An NSA employee took a few classified documents home to be able to work at home on the weekend. He had no nefarious purpose, but willfully violated the law. He was convicted and is currently serving a nine year prison sentence.

 

I long held a TS/SCI as a case officer in the agency. I had classification authority, too.

1 hour ago, riclag said:

Its a indictment but it feels more like political persecution against his supporters likeJordan , Donalds ,Graham , Grassly , Staffanic , Green , Gatze and hundreds of other Gop officials along with
Millions of hard working Americans who just want to hold the unelected bureaucrats accountable!Thats what the declassified docs were all about imop

The charge of theft of national secrets is unrelated to whether the documents were classified or not.

18 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

The headline is somewhat misleading.  It sounds more like multiple counts of making false statements and conspiracy.  I have held two US Government Security clearances(DOD and DOS) rarely I have seen anyone prosecuted for mishandling or not properly storing classified materials.  Most lose their security clearances.  The key distinction would be if Donald Trump had actually provided access to classified documents to a non cleared person.  Of course the full indictment has not been released so the extent of the seven counts is not known.

 

For context retired Army General David Patraeus plead guilty to one count of providing classified information to his then mistress Paula Broadwell.  Patraeus plead to a misdemeanor and paid a fine.  So in US Government versus Donald Trump I hope the making false statements and conspiracy cases are strong because the improperly handling classified materials is not as big deal as many would hope for in criminal court.  The only caveat is if Donald Trump had given access to classified information to any foreign national? This has not been indicated as of yet.  

 

I have never voted for Donald Trump and I have never owned a “MAGA” hat or shirt.  I just experience in accessing, handling and storing classified information in accordance with NISPOM(National Information Security Program Operating Manual).  

We’ll all get to know on Tuesday.

1 hour ago, riclag said:

Trump didnt steal documents !As Potus he declassified them in a memo!

 He was negotiating with gov agencies as had been reported!

Now its in the courts hands!

Right....where is that memo?

 

There was nothing to negotiate about.  The documents were US government property, as per the Presidential Records Act.  He never should have taken them.  Once he was notified about them he should have returned them.  Instead he chose to keep stolen property.

1 hour ago, vandeventer said:

A very dark day, equal justice I think not.

Agreed.  Trump is a thief and a national security risk, and he has been treated far too leniently.

43 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

The headline is somewhat misleading.  It sounds more like multiple counts of making false statements and conspiracy.  I have held two US Government Security clearances(DOD and DOS) rarely I have seen anyone prosecuted for mishandling or not properly storing classified materials.  Most lose their security clearances.  The key distinction would be if Donald Trump had actually provided access to classified documents to a non cleared person.  Of course the full indictment has not been released so the extent of the seven counts is not known.

 

For context retired Army General David Patraeus plead guilty to one count of providing classified information to his then mistress Paula Broadwell.  Patraeus plead to a misdemeanor and paid a fine.  So in US Government versus Donald Trump I hope the making false statements and conspiracy cases are strong because the improperly handling classified materials is not as big deal as many would hope for in criminal court.  The only caveat is if Donald Trump had given access to classified information to any foreign national? This has not been indicated as of yet.  

 

I have never voted for Donald Trump and I have never owned a “MAGA” hat or shirt.  I just experience in accessing, handling and storing classified information in accordance with NISPOM(National Information Security Program Operating Manual).  

Inadvertent mishandling of classified is common and is usually dealt with by counseling, training, administrative measures and sometimes loss of a security clearance. 

 

Intentional retention of classified in a non-secure manner is a crime, made more so by refusing to return the documents when requested.  People are prosecuted for that, as they should be.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I assume Patreus negotiated a deal in which he pleaded guilty and did not have to go to prison.  It probably would have been difficult or impossible to prosecute him without revealing some of the TS he intentionally mishandled.

 

What are the chances Trump will plead guilty?

 

 

A good paper about possible penalties for Trump. The WE is pro-GOP, but not necessarily pro-Trump, so the article is rather reliable.

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/justice/trump-faces-espionage-act-and-obstruction-charges

This thread is unusually quiet for such a news. It seems instructions have not been received yet.

24 minutes ago, candide said:

It seems instructions have not been received yet.

What instructions, from whom and to do what?

3 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

What instructions, from whom and to do what?

Obvilously the GOP talking points narrative.

2 hours ago, riclag said:

Trump didnt steal documents !As Potus he declassified them in a memo!

Do you actually fall for, and/or believe this BS?

 

EG; you are suggesting the ex president can just declassify the  TOP SECRET (US EYES ONLY) documents covering, lets say, the design of the Trident system, or F35 and that once declassified by him he can just give access to them to anyone?

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

What instructions, from whom and to do what?

From Truth Social.

1 hour ago, LaosLover said:

Republican candidates must now vociferously defend the guy they are running against.

 

I don't think this has happened in the history of the world. What's your reason for running if your opponent losing or going to jail means the end of Western Civilization?

 

So yeah, Pence ran away from even a soft ball interview with the same speed that he ran away from the noose.

 

It's all fun and games today, decrying Federalism. Come Tuesday, when the indictment is read, they're forced to double down and suffer the death by a thousand cuts as Trump continues to embarrass them.

 

They can only cry hoax for so long. At some point, they have to talk about the actual case and stop blaming the Biden Crime Family. 

Who says that the other Republicans now running for the presidential nominee must defend Trump.  Where do you come up with this comment.  In the past many would throw the other candidates under the bus, and then continue with more and more comments to disenfranchise that opponent.  It is called mudslinging and by throwing Trump under the bus and then placing him in the also ran column they distance themselves from him and show how they are a better candidate.  It works on both sides, or should I say on all sides of political parties.

59 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Inadvertent mishandling of classified is common and is usually dealt with by counseling, training, administrative measures and sometimes loss of a security clearance. 

 

Intentional retention of classified in a non-secure manner is a crime, made more so by refusing to return the documents when requested.  People are prosecuted for that, as they should be.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I assume Patreus negotiated a deal in which he pleaded guilty and did not have to go to prison.  It probably would have been difficult or impossible to prosecute him without revealing some of the TS he intentionally mishandled.

 

What are the chances Trump will plead guilty?

 

 

Chances of Trump making a guilty plead? Probably zero.  Has he ever admitted he was wrong? As far as I know he has not.  

8 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Do you actually fall for, and/or believe this BS?

 

EG; you are suggesting the ex president can just declassify the  TOP SECRET (US EYES ONLY) documents covering, lets say, the design of the Trident system, or F35 and that once declassified by him he can just give access to them to anyone?

 

 

 

Wait for it, here it comes......oh wait where are the MAGA folks? conspicuously absent so okay I will say it for them: "But he thought about it and therefore they are all declassified regardless"

 

How these folks believe this garbage is truly hard to believe, and makes one wonder if they have any common sense or actually think for themselves.  The Declassification process has so many steps and layers which must be undertaken, that in the end it's up to the National Archives to state that a document is declassified, stamp it so, and then it can be released.  Of course there will be many redactions in the document and entire sections missing which makes the document look nothing like it resembled in it's prior incarnation.

And now on to Georgia.

27 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

What instructions, from whom and to do what?

It's a (not really) private joke among non-Trumpers.

15 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Who says that the other Republicans now running for the presidential nominee must defend Trump.  Where do you come up with this comment.  In the past many would throw the other candidates under the bus, and then continue with more and more comments to disenfranchise that opponent.  It is called mudslinging and by throwing Trump under the bus and then placing him in the also ran column they distance themselves from him and show how they are a better candidate.  It works on both sides, or should I say on all sides of political parties.

Fair point but if they see him as a goner i.e.  see the writing on the wall that he is finally untenable as a nominee, they can show full support for him, complain about the weaponisation of Biden's Justice Department,  hint that if they win they will pardon him, thereby gathering the support of his base.

1 minute ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Fair point but if they see him as a goner i.e.  see the writing on the wall that he is finally untenable as a nominee, they can show full support for him, complain about the weaponisation of Biden's Justice Department,  hint that if they win they will pardon him, thereby gathering the support of his base.

That would be akin to slowly putting the knife in his back and twisting it thereby eviscerating him and relegating him to the sidelines forever.  I would venture that if that were to happen, then whomever was elected and then pardoned him would ensure that Trumps lips were permanently sewed closed. Thats my take on it, and one way to ensure Trump is truly placed out of the limelight and unable to divide people ever again.

17 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Who says that the other Republicans now running for the presidential nominee must defend Trump.  Where do you come up with this comment.  In the past many would throw the other candidates under the bus, and then continue with more and more comments to disenfranchise that opponent.  It is called mudslinging and by throwing Trump under the bus and then placing him in the also ran column they distance themselves from him and show how they are a better candidate.  It works on both sides, or should I say on all sides of political parties.

They will not nessarily defend him, but they will cautiously play the witch hunt card in order to remain GOP compliant.

20 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Who says that the other Republicans now running for the presidential nominee must defend Trump.  

But every last one is defending Trump. They need his base of morons.

 

They need to promise they'll pardon him without even knowing the facts.

 

Once again, they have to kiss his A* while he does whatever he wants.  Sweet!

3 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

That would be akin to slowly putting the knife in his back and twisting it thereby eviscerating him and relegating him to the sidelines forever.  I would venture that if that were to happen, then whomever was elected and then pardoned him would ensure that Trumps lips were permanently sewed closed. Thats my take on it, and one way to ensure Trump is truly placed out of the limelight and unable to divide people ever again.

I also guess that, if DeSantis or Pence are elected, they will surely enjoy the sight on Trump imploring them for a pardon! ????

A reported post has been removed.

 

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7 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Well you know what this means for khun Trump......fundraising time!!

Yep, sure does, so time to round up more buffoons to believe in Humpty Trumpty and his pleas of innocence – – yeah right!

 

Time to nail the grifter!!

2 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

Dark day for who? Not for justice as it is being served correctly after a thorough investigation and a grand jury review with the recommendation to indict.  Tel us please how that is a miscarriage of justice and a dark day.  Dark day for trump as the clouds are darkening over him and his supporters.  Time to realize just who you have been played by.

Yes a dark day for America, but the Dems. can't see this. As it must be all the smoke coming down from Canada getting in their eyes.

It's quiet round these parts. Too quiet. I don't like it. ????