Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Again, what is it with your lies? Do you have to?

This has been discussed, explained, and yet you pretend that it's a new thing.

 

I did not insist or deny what you claim.

 

I acknowledged that there's a history.

This topic is not a history class.

 

It's a current events topics.

On a news section.

 

Then you admit the war didn't start on Oct 7th? You're very confused about this.

[Morch]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

Then you admit the war didn't start on Oct 7th? You're very confused about this.

 

I do not 'admit', this is not a court.

 

Not sure what is it with you and ignoring post made.

 

This conflict did not start on the 7/10.

This war was.

 

Not too complicated. Even for you.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

I do not 'admit', this is not a court.

 

Not sure what is it with you and ignoring post made.

 

This conflict did not start on the 7/10.

This war was.

 

Not too complicated. Even for you.

 

It is too complicated for me obviously. Trying to deal with the difference between "this war" and "this conflict" is doing my head in. You're hiding behind semantics, pretending there is a difference in meaning between these two phrases.

[Morch]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

It is too complicated for me obviously. Trying to deal with the difference between "this war" and "this conflict" is doing my head in. You're hiding behind semantics, pretending there is a difference in meaning between these two phrases.

 

No, that would be you trolling over and over again.

There were comments about his by the moderation team.

 

 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No, that would be you trolling over and over again.

There were comments about his by the moderation team.

 

 

 

Comments about the difference between these two phrases? Is that a fact?

[Jeff the Chef]

3 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   How many bullets were fired directly at you by the enemy ?

Were you in gun fights where the enemy is in the same building and firing at you ?

Q1: You would never know exactly, nearest I can remember was a round ricocheting off the Sanger/sandbagged position between me and a medic, oh how we laughed afterwards, he had <deleted> himself, I must admit I wasn't far off myself.

Q2: Hand to hand in the street count, where you never knew what was coming at times

[Morch]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

Comments about the difference between these two phrases? Is that a fact?

 

Comments about these this being a current events topic, not a history class.

Not sure why you bother pretending not being aware of this.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Comments about these this being a current events topic, not a history class.

Not sure why you bother pretending not being aware of this.

 

You're pretense that history since 1948 has no relevance to this war or conflict is no history class. It's a refusal to debate the issues in good faith, nothing more.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Q1: You would never know exactly, nearest I can remember was a round ricocheting off the Sanger/sandbagged position between me and a medic, oh how we laughed afterwards, he had <deleted> himself, I must admit I wasn't far off myself.

Q2: Hand to hand in the street count, where you never knew what was coming at times

 

I believe you, Jeff.

Who wouldn't....?

[Jeff the Chef]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

No, they couldn't. That's you saying stuff.

They had nothing like the means and the firepower Hamas does.

OK, I'll give you that one, over 50 years ago, but Armourlites, blast/nail/fire bombs will still kill you, and the 70's flak jackets were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

You're pretense that history since 1948 has no relevance to this war or conflict is no history class. It's a refusal to debate the issues in good faith, nothing more.

 

Again, I do not pretend anything such as you claim.

Why do you insist on blatantly lying?

[Jeff the Chef]

Just now, Morch said:

 

I believe you, Jeff.

Who wouldn't....?

Tell someone who gives a ....

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Jeff the Chef said:

OK, I'll give you that one, over 50 years ago, but Armourlites, blast/nail/fire bombs will still kill you, and the 70's flak jackets were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

 

I'll give you this - look up how many people were killed in all the years of IRA insurgency. Then compare it to that 7/10 attack.

It was already discussed here, links, figures and all.

 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Tell someone who gives a ....

 

That's exactly what I dd.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Again, I do not pretend anything such as you claim.

Why do you insist on blatantly lying?

 

Why all the yelling and screaming when someone suggests this war didn't start on Oct 7th?

[Morch]

IDF says terrorist who took part in Oct. 7 attack nabbed at Gaza school alongside other Hamas members

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-terrorist-who-took-part-in-oct-7-attack-nabbed-at-gaza-school-alongside-other-hamas-members/

 

Slowly but surely....

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

IDF says terrorist who took part in Oct. 7 attack nabbed at Gaza school alongside other Hamas members

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-terrorist-who-took-part-in-oct-7-attack-nabbed-at-gaza-school-alongside-other-hamas-members/

 

Slowly but surely....

 

Good.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Why all the yelling and screaming when someone suggests this war didn't start on Oct 7th?

 

Why all the trolling and lying?

There was no 'yelling', there was no 'screaming'.

 

This war started on 7/10.

The conflict started years and decades ago.

 

This topic is about current events.

It's not a history class.

 

You seem unable to grasp this.

[ozimoron]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Why all the trolling and lying?

There was no 'yelling', there was no 'screaming'.

 

This war started on 7/10.

The conflict started years and decades ago.

 

This topic is about current events.

It's not a history class.

 

You seem unable to grasp this.

 

This war started in 1948. Claiming that it started on Oct 7 is a logically and ethically untenable position.

[MangoKorat]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:13 AM, Nick Carter icp said:

Can you state the war crimes that Israel have committed 

Well I'll give it a go...........

 

But first I will state that the attacks on Israeli civillians on 7th October were horrific and the work of animals.  But let's be clear here, those attacks were committed by Hamas. They were not committed by Palestinian Civillians.

 

So, returning to war crimes committed by Israel - since the start of this war, Israel has been accused of the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians.  Israel have used as their reasoning that such civillians are actually the victims of Hamas who force 'collateral damage' through hiding amongst the population.  The Israelis also made out that Hamas sited their weapons storage and other infrastructure in public buildings and schools. Even that Hamas had a major heaquarters in the Al Shifa hospital.  The photos I've seen, provided by the Israelis after the capture the Al Shifa showed a handful of weapons, some clothing and, I think, one laptop - hardly a headqaurters.

 

I have never believed that the Israelis were taking much care of where they were bombing or have any particular care for Palestinian civillians.  That conviction was totally justified last week when Israeli soldiers shot dead 3 Israeli citizens who were un-armed and waving a white flag.  If they have no care for anyone waving a white flag, what hope do Palestinians have?

 

The Israelis actions are both indefensible and futile.  The amount of 'collateral damage' has been stated as far higher than that in any other war and what do they think they are currently creating in Gaza?  They may well defeat Hamas but just how do they think the remaining Palestinians will regard them?

 

Their actions are creating a force far bigger than Hamas ever was from people who won't care - what have they got to lose? Unless the rest of the world steps in they have no future.  Prior to this the Israeli right wing regarded Palestinians as little more than dogs - how will they treat them once they are defeated?  What do such actions breed?

 

From the start of the conflict the Israelis have ordered the Palestinians to move from one area to another and then shelled the area they told people to move to.  They did exactly that again last week when they told some Palestinians to move to Rafah City then bombed it the next day.

 

Although it is in no way an excuse for the 7th October attrocities, the Israeli government's behaviour over the last few years has been a huge contributory factor in the situation that lead to the current situation. Even as I write, Israeli 'settlers' are stealing Palestinian farms and land in the West Bank and shooting Palestinians.  As the UN's Anthony Guterrez said  - this situation was not created out of a vacuum.  In 2015 Netanyahu stated that there will never be a Palestinian State and has repeated that several times since - last week he said it will never happen. That cannot stand and neither can Hamas's intent to destroy Israel continue.

 

Like many, I have always believed that any solution to the decades old conflict in Israel/Palestine must include the disolution of groups such as Hamas but Israel must also get rid of its right wing government and stop encouraging the stealing of land. Both sides must recognise each other's right to exist.

 

My overall concern at the moment is the huge amount of Palestinians being killed by Israel's attacks every day. There is no and can be no - excuse for what is going on at the moment. Its not collateral damage, its slaughter.

 

So War Crimes:

• Indiscriminate bombing of civillian buildings/homes
• Shooting of unarmed Palestinian civillians
• Shooting of unidentified/unarmed people waving white flags
• Failing to allow adequate humanitarian aid to some areas
• Failing to allow sufficient humanitarian aid overall
• Deliberate turning off of water supplies
• Carrying out military operations in refugee camps

They will, I have no doubt, add to that list as time moves on.  I am also sure that Hamas have also committed War Crimes but that wasn't your question.

[Morch]

Austin: I’m not dictating timelines or terms; Gallant: Israel won’t control Gaza in any civilian way

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/austin-im-not-dictating-timelines-or-terms-gallant-israel-wont-control-gaza-in-any-civilian-way/

 

While I'm sure Austin had a lot to say behind closed doors, he doesn't seem keen on airing it in public.

 

As long as the USA doesn't put it's foot down, and if Israel (somewhat) heeds USA calls for lowering civilian casualty figures, this could last a long time.

If the past is something to go on, then the international objections would slowly dissipate (unless rekindled by specific incidents), and the world will move on.

 

Regarding Gallant's comment about controlling the Gaza Strip - that's yet another unclear statement, which I think reflects the inability of the current government to even discuss the options. Netanyahu apparently locked himself into a rejectionist position vs. the possibility of the PA taking charge, but I think this has more to do with his domestic political machinations - he's already on the campaign trail, or at least on the shift-the-blame-deflect-away trail.

 

Not sure how the Israeli minister envisages this 'security control' without 'civilian control' bit. Then again, it was not a very well thought out position, more like a political necessity - and one which would differentiate him from Netanyahu, as a possible future contender.

[ozimoron]

"I am clearly saying no, to a Palestinian state. It is not possible to have more than one state west of the Jordan River,” Gallant said.

 

“This is the place of the Jewish, Zionist and democratic state of Israel,” whose existence is baed on the strength of the biblical forefathers, Galant said.

 

“We will work to apply sovereignty in all of Judea and Samaria and to strengthen the settlements,” Gallant said, adding that “settlements are the only key to holding onto sovereignty and Zionism.”

 

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/yoav-galant-dismisses-palestinian-state-calls-to-annex-west-bank-577237

[Jeff the Chef]

12 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Well I'll give it a go...........

 

But first I will state that the attacks on Israeli civillians on 7th October were horrific and the work of animals.  But let's be clear here, those attacks were committed by Hamas. They were not committed by Palestinian Civillians.

 

So, returning to war crimes committed by Israel - since the start of this war, Israel has been accused of the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians.  Israel have used as their reasoning that such civillians are actually the victims of Hamas who force 'collateral damage' through hiding amongst the population.  The Israelis also made out that Hamas sited their weapons storage and other infrastructure in public buildings and schools. Even that Hamas had a major heaquarters in the Al Shifa hospital.  The photos I've seen, provided by the Israelis after the capture the Al Shifa showed a handful of weapons, some clothing and, I think, one laptop - hardly a headqaurters.

 

I have never believed that the Israelis were taking much care of where they were bombing or have any particular care for Palestinian civillians.  That conviction was totally justified last week when Israeli soldiers shot dead 3 Israeli citizens who were un-armed and waving a white flag.  If they have no care for anyone waving a white flag, what hope do Palestinians have?

 

The Israelis actions are both indefensible and futile.  The amount of 'collateral damage' has been stated as far higher than that in any other war and what do they think they are currently creating in Gaza?  They may well defeat Hamas but just how do they think the remaining Palestinians will regard them?

 

Their actions are creating a force far bigger than Hamas ever was from people who won't care - what have they got to lose? Unless the rest of the world steps in they have no future.  Prior to this the Israeli right wing regarded Palestinians as little more than dogs - how will they treat them once they are defeated?  What do such actions breed?

 

From the start of the conflict the Israelis have ordered the Palestinians to move from one area to another and then shelled the area they told people to move to.  They did exactly that again last week when they told some Palestinians to move to Rafah City then bombed it the next day.

 

Although it is in no way an excuse for the 7th October attrocities, the Israeli government's behaviour over the last few years has been a huge contributory factor in the situation that lead to the current situation. Even as I write, Israeli 'settlers' are stealing Palestinian farms and land in the West Bank and shooting Palestinians.  As the UN's Anthony Guterrez said  - this situation was not created out of a vacuum.  In 2015 Netanyahu stated that there will never be a Palestinian State and has repeated that several times since - last week he said it will never happen. That cannot stand and neither cannot Hamas's intent to destroy Israel continue.

 

Like many, I have always believed that any solution to the decades old conflict in Israel/Palestine must include the disolution of groups such as Hamas but Israel must also get rid of its right wing government and stop encouraging the stealing of land. Both sides must recognise each other's right to exist.

 

My overall concern at the moment is the huge amount of Palestinians being killed by Israel's attacks every day. There is no and can be no - excuse for what is going on at the moment. Its not collateral damage, its slaughter.

 

So War Crimes:

• Indiscriminate bombing of civillian buildings/homes
• Shooting of unarmed Palestinian civillians
• Shooting of unidentified/unarmed people waving white flags
• Failing to allow adequate humanitarian aid to some areas
• Failing to allow sufficient humanitarian aid overall
• Deliberate turning off of water supplies
• Carrying out military operations in refugee camps

They will, I have no doubt, add to that list as time moves on.  I am also sure that Hamas have also committed War Crimes but that wasn't your question.

Great post, I'll stick me Tin-hat on now waiting for the replies

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Great post, I'll stick me Tin-hat on now waiting for the replies

 

The replies will be it was all justified because of how horrendous the Hamas attacks were and they were warned to leave anyway. Either that or crickets.

[MangoKorat]

10 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Great post, I'll stick me Tin-hat on now waiting for the replies

Oh I'm sure your right but I don't give a damn.  Israel's claims of collateral damage were shot to pieces forever when they shot 3 of their own white flag waving young men last week. Very sad though it was, it showed without doubt that their true policy is nothing less than shoot to kill.

 

The really sad part it that if it had been 3 Palestinian civillians that had been shot - nothing would have been heard of it.  How many times has that happened I wonder?

[MangoKorat]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The replies will be it was all justified because of how horrendous the Hamas attacks were and they were warned to leave anyway.

Yes, warned to leave and go to another area that will then be bombed. Nobody seems to consider that Palestinian civillians are not the ones who carried out the 7th October attacks.  Given Israel's actions though, they may very well be Hamas or some other militant group members in the future.

[Jeff the Chef]

4 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Oh I'm sure your right but I don't give a damn.  Israel's claims of collateral damage were shot to pieces forever when they shot 3 of their own white flag waving young men last week. Very sad though it was, it showed without doubt that their true policy is nothing less than shoot to kill.

 

The really sad part it that if it had been 3 Palestinian civillians that had been shot - nothing would have been heard of it.  How many times has that happened I wonder?

Another good point, I'll now add my body armour, their gonna love you lol

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

Oh I'm sure your right but I don't give a damn.  Israel's claims of collateral damage were shot to pieces forever when they shot 3 of their own white flag waving young men last week. Very sad though it was, it showed without doubt that their true policy is nothing less than shoot to kill.

 

The really sad part it that if it had been 3 Palestinian civillians that had been shot - nothing would have been heard of it.  How many times has that happened I wonder?

No that doesn't reveal a policy. There is zero evidence of that.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

It's all very clear to me Brian, no matter what happens you and your ilk will defend Israel whatever is put here, sadly.

I see from the post you quoted that all they can do in response to anyone criticizing israel is to resort to insults. I guess that is because they can't defend the decades of israeli illegal occupation, oppression and collective punishment that caused October 7.

[asf6]

The IDF policy seems to be that if you have not left Gaza, you will be viewed as a terrorist, the implication being that you will be killed. 

 

GAZA, Oct 22 (Reuters) - Palestinians said they had received renewed warnings from Israel's military to move from north Gaza to the south of the strip, with the added warning that they could be identified as sympathisers with a "terrorist organisation" if they stayed put.

The message was delivered in leaflets marked with the Israel Defense Forces name and logo from Saturday and sent to people via mobile phone audio messages across the Gaza Strip, a narrow territory that is just 45 km (28 miles) long.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-tells-gazans-move-south-or-risk-being-seen-terrorist-partner-2023-10-22/