Israel losing global support over Gaza bombing, Biden says

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

There is no consistent, serious element within Hamas leadership openly advocating a two-state solution, peace and so on. There's one specific leader which makes such comments from time to time (not going the full distance, more along the lines of advocating making up with the PA, which implies accepting the PA's position and obligations).

 

Again, there is no such policy - there are politicians saying things, which they thing they can get away with because Netanyahu is weak. Not denouncing them is exactly because of that - but neither is there any government decision about it, nor was it brought to a vote as far as I'm aware.

 

There is no such policy, and there is no massive support for such policy.

 

You're grasping at straws.

 

sorry, quoiting uncontested government ministerial proclamations is not grasping at straws.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

sorry, quoiting uncontested government ministerial proclamations is not grasping at straws.

 

Because there are no frictions, no rogue statements by politicians elsewhere? That's a very weak argument.

Anyone who followed Israeli politics for the last year would tell you this how the current government rolls.

 

In contrast, Hamas ideology and policy appear in both their Charters.

 

[coolcarer]

33 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Oh yes they are, stop the propaganda. 

They've never been offered equal rights in any of the 'PEACE' deals set up by the USA, who you know see Palestinians as inferior beings, despite them doing nothing wrong and getting their land taken away. 

What would you do if your country was occupied, oh wait a minute...

Wash that mouth out and read the Hamas Charter, either one will do.

[coolcarer]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

If Hamas stops the terrorist attacks will Israel give their land back and agree to a 2 state solution?

You a Hamas spokesman now? WTF. Get a grip man

[ozimoron]

17 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

You a Hamas spokesman now? WTF. Get a grip man

 

I was asking for an opinion.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

I was asking for an opinion.

 

Putting up a contrived, loaded question is not asking for an opinion, it's framing the discussion and broadcasting yours.

 

 

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Putting up a contrived, loaded question is not asking for an opinion, it's framing the discussion and broadcasting yours.

 

 

 

Hardly contrived or loaded. Anybody who's being paying attention know that those 2 issues are a starting point for Hamas to even consider stopping.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Hardly contrived or loaded. Anybody who's being paying attention know that those 2 issues are a starting point for Hamas to even consider stopping.

 

Here is the line quoted:

 

Quote

If Hamas stops the terrorist attacks will Israel give their land back and agree to a 2 state solution?

 

What land it 'their land'? Is this Hamas land? Palestinian land? What are you on about, exactly? I guess you didn't have a clear idea, just posted away. As for 'agree to a 2 state solution' - that's not even a Hamas demand, or goal. Hamas itself rejects the notion.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Here is the line quoted:

 

 

What land it 'their land'? Is this Hamas land? Palestinian land? What are you on about, exactly? I guess you didn't have a clear idea, just posted away. As for 'agree to a 2 state solution' - that's not even a Hamas demand, or goal. Hamas itself rejects the notion.

 

I have a crystal clear idea. Both sides agreed to a border in 1967 and that's my take on it. Down to the last square inch.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

I have a crystal clear idea. Both sides agreed to a border in 1967 and that's my take on it. Down to the last square inch.

 

When did that happen?

Did Hamas embrace this?

Is this what Hamas ideology and policies are about?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

When did that happen?

Did Hamas embrace this?

Is this what Hamas ideology and policies are about?

 

President Obama's Middle East speech yesterday lasted for about 45 minutes, but one solitary line has generated a disproportionate amount of coverage and controversy: "The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps."

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/what-obama-meant-1967-lines-why-irked-netanyahu/350925/

[Hanaguma]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I have a crystal clear idea. Both sides agreed to a border in 1967 and that's my take on it. Down to the last square inch.

Sounds good. You mean the  border after Israel kicked Arab butt, right?

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

President Obama's Middle East speech yesterday lasted for about 45 minutes, but one solitary line has generated a disproportionate amount of coverage and controversy: "The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps."

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/what-obama-meant-1967-lines-why-irked-netanyahu/350925/

 

Ah, so you read tidbits, but no real idea what you're talking about - the usual.

 

There was no 'agreement' with the Palestinians in 1967. There were ceasefire agreements with Jordan and Egypt. Israel retained control of the territory. The lines mentioned are those relevant to the international borders between the countries, not quite what you thought. The Palestinians were not really involved in these agreements.

 

So, apart from this nonsense, it still doesn't answer the rest - when you say 'their land' does it mean Hamas gets both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? Kinda doubt the PA will be thrilled. Is the Gaza Strip Hamas land or Palestinian land - same issue.

 

Moreover, why do you insist that Hamas is into peace, or a two-state solution?

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Ah, so you read tidbits, but no real idea what you're talking about - the usual.

 

There was no 'agreement' with the Palestinians in 1967. There were ceasefire agreements with Jordan and Egypt. Israel retained control of the territory. The lines mentioned are those relevant to the international borders between the countries, not quite what you thought. The Palestinians were not really involved in these agreements.

 

So, apart from this nonsense, it still doesn't answer the rest - when you say 'their land' does it mean Hamas gets both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? Kinda doubt the PA will be thrilled. Is the Gaza Strip Hamas land or Palestinian land - same issue.

 

Moreover, why do you insist that Hamas is into peace, or a two-state solution?

 

I think the world expects that both Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian land. After all this denial you now suggest that Gaza is not Palestinian land or just not Hamas land? Nobody suggested that Hamas gets any land. Nobody. They are terrorists. The world expects that the PA is the legitimate government and they would have been by now had Netanyahu and the far right religious extremists not been running interference by supporting Hamas.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I think the world expects that both Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian land. After all this denial you now suggest that Gaza is not Palestinian land or just not Hamas land? Nobody suggested that Hamas gets any land. Nobody. They are terrorists. The world expects that the PA is the legitimate government and they would have been by now had Netanyahu and the far right religious extremists not been running interference by supporting Hamas.

 

What 'denial'? Making things up again?

I didn't 'suggest' anything, I've asked you to clarify what you meant - which you failed to do.

 

And really? Nobody suggested?

 

Quote

If Hamas stops the terrorist attacks will Israel give their land back and agree to a 2 state solution?

 

Your words.

 

I'm asking you to be clear regarding terms you toss about. You seem unable or unwilling to do so.

 

[Elkski]

I recall mamy of us posting out against Israel in the very first thread on this war.  We were all attacked.  Now who is looking more evil??    The truth hurts. 

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Elkski said:

I recall mamy of us posting out against Israel in the very first thread on this war.  We were all attacked.  Now who is looking more evil??    The truth hurts. 

 

Now who is looking more evil?

 

Can I be it?! Pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease!

[coolcarer]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

I was asking for an opinion.

& I asked you a question. 

[Neeranam]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

As pointed out, Israel withdrew form the Gaza Strip long ago - under a government headed by a right-wing/militaristic leader.

You know exactly why they did this, don't act dumb. 

They should never have been there at all anyway. 

[pacovl46]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:09 AM, ozimoron said:

 

If Hamas stops the terrorist attacks will Israel give their land back and agree to a 2 state solution?

They’d eventually have no other choice.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:05 PM, pacovl46 said:

Ok, don't you want to or are you incapable of understanding it? 

 

I don't know how to say it any clearer! 

 

If Hamas stops the terrorist attacks then Israel won't be allowed to continue what they're doing right now because there won't be any justifiable reason to do so, therefore the global support will shift in favor of the Palestinians and a two state solution, whether Israel likes it or not! 

 

If you can't understand that then please stop replying to me because there's nothing else to say apart from let's agree to disagree! 

I disagree with what you say as who is going to stop them? The US isn't, at least at present.

 

I'm happy to not reply to you any more if that's what you want, but I might forget, so I'll have to put you on ignore.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I disagree with what you say as who is going to stop them? The US isn't, at least at present.

 

I'm happy to not reply to you any more if that's what you want, but I might forget, so I'll have to put you on ignore.

so I'll have to put you on ignore.

 

 yes god forbid you have someone who disagrees with you

[ozimoron]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:19 PM, Morch said:

 

What 'denial'? Making things up again?

I didn't 'suggest' anything, I've asked you to clarify what you meant - which you failed to do.

 

And really? Nobody suggested?

 

 

Your words.

 

I'm asking you to be clear regarding terms you toss about. You seem unable or unwilling to do so.

 

 

You're simply not making sense. I can't understand what you're trying to say here.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, pacovl46 said:

They’d eventually have no other choice.

 

It's been 70 years. Define eventually.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

You're simply not making sense. I can't understand what you're trying to say here.

 

Yeah....the above captures my meaning exactly - you made an unclear comment, which simply did not make sense and I couldn't understand what you were trying to say.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Yeah....the above captures my meaning exactly - you made an unclear comment, which simply did not make sense and I couldn't understand what you were trying to say.

 

Faced with trying to defend the indefensible, the apologists of Israel are constantly attacking anyone who criticizes Israel. World wide sympathy for Israel is drying up as the far wing wing government it now has turns the country into a pariah state.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

It's been 70 years. Define eventually.

 

70 years ago, Israel did not control the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Jordan and Egypt did.

Israel took control of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967.

 

Unless, of course, your comment was an embrace of the 'river to the sea' position, favored by Hamas.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Faced with trying to defend the indefensible, the apologists of Israel are constantly attacking anyone who criticizes Israel. World wide sympathy for Israel is drying up as the far wing wing government it now has turns the country into a pariah state.

 

More hot air when you can't actually make a coherent argument. Later you'll probably claim you're not flaming etc.

You're welcome to cite the many countries which had severed relations with Israel etc....or continue living in your fantasy world.

Up to you.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

70 years ago, Israel did not control the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Jordan and Egypt did.

Israel took control of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967.

 

Unless, of course, your comment was an embrace of the 'river to the sea' position, favored by Hamas.

 

It wasn't. And 75 years ago, Israel expelled 2 million people from its lands.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

More hot air when you can't actually make a coherent argument. Later you'll probably claim you're not flaming etc.

You're welcome to cite the many countries which had severed relations with Israel etc....or continue living in your fantasy world.

Up to you.

 

Criticizing Israel is not flaming. Stop being so obsessed with me. It's getting creepy honestly.