New Tax Rules for Expats in Thailand Spark Concern

[Derek B]

2 hours ago, WingFat said:

While I sympathize with those who will find this a challenge to pay Thai taxes, the saying of "there's no free lunch" comes to mind. And the argument that these people contribute to the Thai economy in other ways, well, so does everyone else.

The folk I support here in Thailand are ALL in the grey economy and pay no income taxes whilst still having a vote. They will loose out to the value of any Thai tax I pay.

 

2 hours ago, Robbie2618 said:

The only income the Thai authorities would know about is what's in your local bank account that you show on visa renewal. 

If you maintain 800K for the purposes of visa renewal you are not actually showing any Thai income except interest accrued.

 

If you go the 65K per month route that income is already spent 100% in the "village" economy so to speak. The resultant "village" income will drop by the tax deducted which will go to central government coffers and will not be returned directly to the local economy. So effectiviely there is no levelling up with the locals only a net decline. I good vote loser policy it seems.

 

No matter what you will have to declare your global income I expect once you are given a Thai Tax ID number.

 

Until the dust settles limit your days incountry to 179 then leave until 2025 and only bring cash into Thailand.

 

Note: Some tax authorities have a general definition of 180 days that being for example in any continuous period of 365 days over successive tax years if 180 days are spent in country you would be a tax resident.

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, dlclark97 said:

Whatever the outcome, one problem I foresee is that many Americans have not been able to complete their USA Income Tax Returns due often to late arrival to complete their tax returns.  The tax due date in the USA traditionally is April 15th but persons living overseas have an automatic 60-day extension (if requested).  Tax preparers in Thailand go by these dates so no one will know by March 15th what tax has already been paid in their home country.

Many countries have the same problem of misaligned tax years but it's not an insurmountable problem. The UK tax year ends 5 April which is 5 days after the Thai tax filing season ends. I file both sets of tax returns and already know my numbers weeks before the deadline so making the calculations is not difficult.

[lordgrinz]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

A statement or bank book dated 1 January 2024 will work, what more can there be.

 

How would you verify any information in the statement, or that it is even a real statement? The US Embassy won't do it, and I doubt anyone in Thailand will accept a foreign issued bank statement. Like I said, they need to clarify a lot of things soon!

[4MyEgo]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

You might be able to use Gift Tax to gift money legally to your wife, that would have a similar effect. Those funds would then become Sin suan tua or property of only your wife.

 

Any idea what the maximum amount would be off of the top of your head, as I can't see that being that much, plus we both have kids, maybe if it's not restricted to one, I can spread the LOVE, so to speak 🥰

[mania]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

You are confusing two questions:

 

Do you need to fill out a Thai tax return?

 

And

 

When you fill out that return, will you have to pay anything?

 

Well I guess it could be looked at that way but initially just knowing if transferring in  SS or savings is taxable would end the need to know anything more 😉 

[J Branche]

9 minutes ago, saintdomingo said:

Mike I am expecting to transfer in approx, 600,000 baht to pay for hospital treatment (my status is extension of permission to stay based on non-O Retirement) any likelihood they would give tax relief on this.

Yes I know, my fault for not having it here in the first place.

Do you have documentation to Prove this is Foreign Income that was Earned and Assessable prior to January 1, 2024?

Verify with Attorney or Thai Tax Professional but 

https://www.rd.go.th/21/page-2.html click on 21 November 2023

 

And 

 

Google.    thai revenue department FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

Are from the Thai Revenue Department website and current and published "Official"

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Aussie999 said:

If on a visa, aren't we still technically a visitor, unless making an income, in Thailand, how can they tax visitors. 

Tax residency is not visa dependent, it depends solely on the number of days spent in the country, in a calendar year. every country is the same in this respect.

[Surasak]

3 hours ago, nickmondo said:

this article is nothing but scaremongering

there is no new information here.

everyone knows that the truth is...............nobody knows 

disgraceful article, and very annoying.

Someone with a big spoon having a stir, just to keep this to the forefront of everyone's mind. I can't say its annoying as I don't think about it that much. I will try to ensure I only bring in up to the limit and trust that keeps me tax free. However, until I get my first tax bill, like everyone else, I am trying to dodge the hook.

[Raindancer]

36 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 Western expats are believed to be in the region of 300k, including retirees.. 

 

I don't know what you classify as " western" expats,  nor where you get your estimated 300000 from.

 

But there are other expats of varying nationalities, who will fall under the TRD statement of " foreigners " for income taxation.

I would hazard a guess that this is far in excess of  your 300000.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Any idea what the maximum amount would be off of the top of your head, as I can't see that being that much, plus we both have kids, maybe if it's not restricted to one, I can spread the LOVE, so to speak 🥰

20 Million baht per year

[shackleton]

I personally am not losing any sleep over this issue as most of us are still not aware of who and what's required most of its pure  speculation 

Will wait until its out in black and white and see if it affects me🤔

 

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Raindancer said:

 

I don't know what you classify as " western" expats,  nor where you get your estimated 300000 from.

 

But there are other expats of varying nationalities, who will fall under the TRD statement of " foreigners " for income taxation.

I would hazard a guess that this is far in excess of  your 300000.

If I had a baht for every time I entered that debate I'd be rich!  Why not start a thread on it and we can debate it there.

[mania]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Correct. The US SS income is exempt by treaty and the pre 2024 savings are exempt by Por162.

 

Thank you Mike

The Pre 2024 savings would be a hard one for anyone to determine though. I mean in my case at this time I do not use all of my SS so savings builds monthly/yearly. But I imagine at the end of the day taxes in Thailand may be the same as elsewhere meaning it is left to the individual to file.

But, if ever questioned we could answer where those funds originated from.

[Danderman123]

7 minutes ago, dlclark97 said:

Whatever the outcome, one problem I foresee is that many Americans have not been able to complete their USA Income Tax Returns due often to late arrival to complete their tax returns.  The tax due date in the USA traditionally is April 15th but persons living overseas have an automatic 60-day extension (if requested).  Tax preparers in Thailand go by these dates so no one will know by March 15th what tax has already been paid in their home country.

I paid Estimated taxes for my 2024 return in July 2023.

 

Certainly, tax liability for US income can be determined early enough to complete Thai tax forms, if it comes to that.

 

But this is getting into the weeds. I am sure there would Extension of Time forms in the Thai tax world.

[Peterphuket]

31 minutes ago, Plus Esse Quam Simultatur said:

After 16 years I have decided to leave Thailand. As a Scandinavian I pay taxes in Denmark but also only get half of the pension because I had decided to live outside the EU.

If I move back I will get my full pension, full medical free treatment . Then I can decide if I will come here 179 days on vacation and to check my condo which only cost me 20.000 Baht yearly. Who is the winner in this competition? 

Noone touches the other part of this taxations. They are forcing all expats to have a health insurance starting September this year. So the taxes we are paying don't give s benefit of public hospitals like people with a work permit. My guess if you are forced to pay up to 71.000 Bath you are probably paying more taxes than a school teacher on salary here. Have booked my flight ticket and leave early next month so they won't get one single Baht from me any more. Feeling a kind of pleasent.

 

"They are forcing all expats to have a health insurance starting September this year."

.

Did I missing something, is this new?

Should I take it out in Thailand, and what about if you have one from abroad?

[wensiensheng]

1 hour ago, 10baht said:

Let's say I earn $100k in 2024 but have 5 million in the bank (outside Thailand) at the end of 2023. How do they know which money I am bring into Thailand?  5000000/100000 = 50 years of earnings before 2024!!!

I have started segregating income from capital. In January I opened a separate “income” account and all income generated on my capital goes directly into that account. All remittances into Thailand come from my “capital” account. Statements to prove it of course.

 

waiting to see if it is valid

[atpeace]

2 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Tell that to Immigrants in your home country who can't vote, but have to pay taxes.

SO true and people just don't get it.  Our home countries have many xpats filing taxes but for some reason this shouldn't apply to Thailand.  Everybody needs to chill. 

 

The odds of this being a minor inconvenience with no taxes paid here in Thailand are extremely high.  The new enforcement is to go after tax dodgers which are mostly Thai but we probably all know an xpat that isn't paying taxes and uses Thailand's loose tax tax enforcement to do this.  They still won't pay and probably won't have issues which is frustrating.  Depending on the country, tax avoidance was and probably will be the reason some choose to live here.

 

As I stated on the first few pages of the first thread on this issue.  This is  going to impact a few xpats and possibly millions of Thais.

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

You must declare cash brought into Thailand, above $10,000 or so.

 

[bob smith]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It depends on the source of the 600k and whether it is assessable income or not. If it is pre 2024 savings, it's tax free. But there is no tax relief on medical bill payments I'm afraid.

so all money remitted into Thailand pre 2024 is tax free??

 

I liquidated all my assets in December last year.

 

bob.

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, shackleton said:

I personally am not losing any sleep over this issue as most of us are still not aware of who and what's required most of its pure  speculation 

Will wait until its out in black and white and see if it affects me🤔

 

The point is for people to listen to others to help them make a determination how to prepare for Taxarmageddon. Or do nothing at all.

 

I got out of Dodge, and will stay out of Thailand for 181 days in 2024. Mexico is nice this time of year.

[Mike Lister]

35 minutes ago, Plus Esse Quam Simultatur said:

After 16 years I have decided to leave Thailand. As a Scandinavian I pay taxes in Denmark but also only get half of the pension because I had decided to live outside the EU.

If I move back I will get my full pension, full medical free treatment . Then I can decide if I will come here 179 days on vacation and to check my condo which only cost me 20.000 Baht yearly. Who is the winner in this competition? 

Noone touches the other part of this taxations. They are forcing all expats to have a health insurance starting September this year. So the taxes we are paying don't give s benefit of public hospitals like people with a work permit. My guess if you are forced to pay up to 71.000 Bath you are probably paying more taxes than a school teacher on salary here. Have booked my flight ticket and leave early next month so they won't get one single Baht from me any more. Feeling a kind of pleasent.

 

You need to provide proof that all expats are required to buy health insurance from September on, if you cannot your post will be deleted.

[atpeace]

14 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

"There will be no impact for 99% foreigners"

 

+

 

"we will have to file which is a hassle but not  unfair.  "

 

Please make up your minds.

little picky today.  It will be nothing more than a minor inconvenience.  Is that better...:)

[KannikaP]

12 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

How well informed about the new tax rules are the other Farangs in your village?

I am the only one ! And happy with it.

[4MyEgo]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

20 Million baht per year

 

20 Million per year, sorry, but is that a typo, e.g. 20 thousand per year ?

[Danderman123]

9 minutes ago, mania said:

 

Well I guess it could be looked at that way but initially just knowing if transferring in  SS or savings is taxable would end the need to know anything more 😉 

Technically, if you are transferring money into Thailand, you are liable to providing a tax return, if only to prove you don't owe anything.

 

The question is whether this will be enforced. Same as motorcycle helmets.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, bob smith said:

so all money remitted into Thailand pre 2024 is tax free??

 

bob.

Foreign sourced income earned before 1 January 2024 is taxed in accordance with the old rules. That means savings earned before 31 December 2023, are tax free when remitted, if remitted in a year other than the one in which they were earned.

[Raindancer]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If I had a baht for every time I entered that debate I'd be rich!  Why not start a thread on it and we can debate it there.

No thanks.  

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

20 Million per year, sorry, but is that a typo, e.g. 20 thousand per year ?

20 Million Baht Per Year

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, atpeace said:

little picky today.  It will be nothing more than a minor inconvenience.  Is that better...:)

Filing means lot of people are going to have to pay a lot of tax.

 

Or worse, the Thai tax forms may not support the tax treaties, so filling a tax return may end up costing significant money for many people.

[whitfield]

Too many of these articles promoted by Tax "Experts".  The emphasis is on earned income.  So there are many loopholes, like inheritance, selling of a property, transfer money to wife etc.  Most pensions are taxed in home country so only the difference if any to pay.  I think the struggle to collect the tax will outweigh the gains.  We'll see, but remember it's income, not capital.