A British ex-neighbor/friend died of cancer few days ago, was living in Isaan with GF. She has the death certificate issued by local hospital/govt.

 

The (simple) GF is totally lost in getting the foreigners body to be cremated, was telling me that she was told she need some paper from embassy for local govt/temple to cremate the body. I have no experience on this at all, and I am not from UK either.

 

I was reading what they say in embassy webpage, and indeed seems she needs a document issued by embassy that allows the local govt/temple/whatever to cremate it.  

In contacted his sister in UK to provide required authoritsation for the gf to take care the things.

 

But then there was also mention (of presumably mandatory) use of 'funeral director' to handle the death. I kind of understood that embassy would not authorise her to handle it, rather would need to be such funeral director. I promised to help her the file the application to embassy, but first would need to understand this

 

Anyone can shed some light to this on what actually would be the minimum requirements to involve 3rd parties like the funeral directors? Or would the british embassy authorise the GF to handle the funeral things?

Funny, I was just thinking a few days ago if anyone had created a basic checklist.

 

I recall when being on here some time ago there was a service to help survivors navigate the death 

 

Don't be too hard on her. I've been here a long time and haven't a clue. 

 

Make tentative plans for cremation at wat

 

Go to hospital, get death certificate assuring died natural causes.

 

Bring certificate to embassy get another certificate to release body

 

Arrangement for transport of body 

 

Return to hospital with certificates, obtain the body

 

Transport body to wat

 

Have the cremation 

 

??????

 

Take the certificates along with a will that States she's executor and beneficiary to banks and land office as applicable 

 

That's my GUESS 

2 minutes ago, MarcusAurelius said:

Funny, I was just thinking a few days ago if anyone had created a basic checklist.

 

I recall when being on here some time ago there was a service to help survivors navigate the death 

 

Don't be too hard on her. I've been here a long time and haven't a clue. 

 

Make tentative plans for cremation at wat

 

Go to hospital, get death certificate assuring died natural causes.

 

Bring certificate to embassy get another certificate to release body

 

Arrangement for transport of body 

 

Return to hospital with certificates, obtain the body

 

Transport body to wat

 

Have the cremation 

 

??????

 

Take the certificates along with a will that States she's executor and beneficiary to banks and land office as applicable 

 

That's my GUESS 

 

Sure - the core question is whether embassy issues the certificate for her without nominating a 'funeral director'? 

 

She will handle everything as long as she gets documents that local govt/temples/whatever agree to cremate the body.

 

One way to find out is to file the application to embassy web page applying her to be the nominated person. If they reject due to she is not a 'funeral director', that would just cause delay and extra work  (and she would need to keep the refridgerated coffin in her living room longer...). Was wondering if anyone would have factual knowledge/experience on this - if not, need to try to call embassy to ask

1 minute ago, mran66 said:

 

Sure - the core question is whether embassy issues the certificate for her without nominating a 'funeral director'? 

 

She will handle everything as long as she gets documents that local govt/temples/whatever agree to cremate the body.

 

No idea bro

 

Would that be that wats abbot? Funeral director?? Seems like a weird ask here.

 

Someone will be along in days ahead. I've no clue.

 

Good luck for her

A Canadian guy I knew died recently in the local hospital. He was not married but had a long-term partner whom he had given instructions to in the case of his demise.
An unmarried foreigner's body has to be identified by a next of kin who is notified by the embassy before the body can be released for cremation. AFAIK, this is done by a copy of his passport I.D. photo. In his case, it took 4 weeks before everything was finalised. 
 

1 hour ago, mran66 said:

But then there was also mention (of presumably mandatory) use of 'funeral director

It's not mandatory but, firstly where is the body ? I strongly recommend using a funeral director though, they will do all the running around, police forensics, embassy, to your local amphor and back to Bangkok to collect the body, charge includes basic coffin, they will deliver the body to the cremation place, but first the death cert has to be registered with the local amphoe/amphor where he lived, before the body can be released, then return get the body transported back. The directors recommended by the embassy are

AsiaOne and Siam, Siam are the cheapest. I used Asiaone and all that cost 43k to Koh Chang, and don't forget if you do it yourself you will need hotel costs in Bangkok twice. Police charged 2500b for transport to police in bankok.

56 minutes ago, MarcusAurelius said:

Go to hospital, get death certificate assuring died natural causes.

Some hospitals insist on an autopsy, Koh Chang do even after dyeing from an incurable disease  MNS.

48 minutes ago, brian69 said:

It's not mandatory but, firstly where is the body ? I strongly recommend using a funeral director though, they will do all the running around, police forensics, embassy, to your local amphor and back to Bangkok to collect the body, charge includes basic coffin, they will deliver the body to the cremation place, but first the death cert has to be registered with the local amphoe/amphor where he lived, before the body can be released, then return get the body transported back. The directors recommended by the embassy are

AsiaOne and Siam, Siam are the cheapest. I used Asiaone and all that cost 43k to Koh Chang, and don't forget if you do it yourself you will need hotel costs in Bangkok twice. Police charged 2500b for transport to police in bankok.

Your outline of what is necessary is what happened to an American friend that died last month. He died at home so his wife had to go through all the hoops with the American Embassy that insisted on an autopsy (he had a long, recent history with health problems at local hospitals). She was assisted to do all that you said by a firm "attached" to the Provincial Hospital that did the autopsy, for a cost of 6000 baht.

1 hour ago, brian69 said:

It's not mandatory but, firstly where is the body ? I strongly recommend using a funeral director though, they will do all the running around, police forensics, embassy, to your local amphor and back to Bangkok to collect the body, charge includes basic coffin, they will deliver the body to the cremation place, but first the death cert has to be registered with the local amphoe/amphor where he lived, before the body can be released, then return get the body transported back. The directors recommended by the embassy are

AsiaOne and Siam, Siam are the cheapest. I used Asiaone and all that cost 43k to Koh Chang, and don't forget if you do it yourself you will need hotel costs in Bangkok twice. Police charged 2500b for transport to police in bankok.

 

As we speak, the body is in a refrigerated coffin in his house in sakhon Nakhon. He died of cancer complications in a local hospital there, and the body was released to his gf. She has the death certificate. He has various cancers for a decade or so, finally internal organs gave up. Only a super paranoid would have concerns about reason of death in his situation. 

 

I actually drove up there couple of weeks ago to say goodbye as it was obvious he would not have long left. 

 

The pending issue is cremation. She was told she need to keep the coffin in her house with the freezer box running (lights on 24hr a day and incense too) until embassy gives permission to cremate it. Creepy. 

 

I am not aware of details of planned /required local arrangements (and honestly don't want to), just trying to help with the embassy thing. She told she can handle the rest locally, true or not remains to be seen 

 

Why would need to go to. Bangkok twice? 

 

19 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

Your outline of what is necessary is what happened to an American friend that died last month. He died at home so his wife had to go through all the hoops with the American Embassy that insisted on an autopsy (he had a long, recent history with health problems at local hospitals). She was assisted to do all that you said by a firm "attached" to the Provincial Hospital that did the autopsy, for a cost of 6000 baht.

Leave it to the Western nanny states to want to burden your Thai family with unnecessary expenses and procedures right to the end. Sad and sadistic. 

4 minutes ago, mran66 said:

The pending issue is cremation. She was told she need to keep the coffin in her house until embassy gives permission to cremate it. Creepy. 

500 baht a day storage in the local morgue (hospital)
The Embassy is officially identifying the deceased with the next of kin. If he had been married then, his wife would obviously have been able to do it, as she would have been his next of kin. 
The body cannot be cremated without being officially identified, if possible.

1 hour ago, brian69 said:

Some hospitals insist on an autopsy, Koh Chang do even after dyeing from an incurable disease  MNS.

&&&฿฿฿ Autopsy ฿฿฿$$$

1 hour ago, brian69 said:

I strongly recommend using a funeral director though, they will do all the running around, police forensics, embassy, to your local amphor and back to Bangkok to collect the body, charge includes basic coffin, they will deliver the body to the cremation place, but first the death cert has to be registered with the local amphoe/amphor where he lived, before the body can be released, then return get the body transported back.

Outside of larger cities and in rural areas, best of luck finding a "funeral director" as unlike that West, they aren't used here.  So what our nanny-state embassies are doing is creating a massive bureaucratic burden for a grieving Thai family.  A sign off by an attending physician should be all that is needed - but noooooo.  Got to get third parties involve all of whom want a cut of the estate for their utterly needless services.  It's sick, sadistic, unnecessary, and a burden.  

12 minutes ago, Madgee said:

The Embassy is officially identifying the deceased with the next of kin. If he had been married then, his wife would obviously have been able to do it, as she would have been his next of kin. 

Not with the American Embassy. They insisted on confirmation of next of kin in America before the okay to release the body. As @connda says it is totally unnecessary burden on the wife and local family.

9 minutes ago, connda said:

&&&฿฿฿ Autopsy ฿฿฿$$$

Not quite sure what your reply means, but the police autopsy a minimal fee if not free, google is your friend.

3 minutes ago, connda said:

Outside of larger cities and in rural areas, best of luck finding a "funeral director" as unlike that West, they aren't used here.  So what our nanny-state embassies are doing is creating a massive bureaucratic burden for a grieving Thai family.  A sign off by an attending physician should be all that is needed - but noooooo.  Got to get third parties involve all of whom want a cut of the estate for their utterly needless services.  It's sick, sadistic, unnecessary, and a burden.  

Yes they are in Bangkok where the embassies are, were they need to go first....

29 minutes ago, mran66 said:

Why would need to go to. Bangkok twice? 

I outlined that in my post.

1 hour ago, connda said:

Leave it to the Western nanny states to want to burden your Thai family with unnecessary expenses and procedures right to the end. Sad and sadistic. 

 

And that can happen. An American acquaintance died in Pattaya sevearal years back. He had no relatives of close friends in Thailand (he was an unpleasant fellow who refused to speak to westerners. 

 

It was discovered that he had a younger brother in Utah, he as contactd by a Thai police unit and he strongly abused the Thai cop (cop spoke good English). Brother in Utah demanded that the Thai cop come to Utah immediately and bring the deceased body. 

 

Thai cops refused and insisted the brother come to Thailand and bring family documents.

 

It became a total mess with no action. Eventually the brother in Utah withdrew from the problem and refused to contribute any funds for a funeral in Pattaya. The deceased died with no funds whatever in the house and none in the several bank books found in the pattaya house. Several farng acquaintance (the deceased had no real friends) were approached for funds, all refused.  

 

A special unit of Thai police then arranged for a pawpers funeral. Buried wrapped in whte cloth, no coffin, no cremation and no headstone or other markings in a back corner of the local temple.  

Just now, scorecard said:

 

And that can happen. An American acquaintance died in Pattaya several years back. He had no relatives or close friends in Thailand (he was an unpleasant fellow who refused to speak to westerners, always abrupt and rude in shops etc). 

 

It was discovered that he had a younger brother in Utah, who was contactd by a Thai police unit and he strongly abused the Thai cop (cop spoke good English). Brother in Utah demanded that the Thai cop come to Utah immediately and bring the deceased body. 

 

Thai cops refused and insisted the brother come to Thailand and bring family documents.

 

It became a total mess with no action. After about 2 years the brother in Utah withdrew from the problem and refused to contribute any funds for a funeral in Pattaya.

 

The deceased died with no funds whatever in the house and none in the several bank books found in the pattaya house*. Several farang acquaintance (the deceased had no real friends) were approached for funds, all refused. 

(* neignbors alerted the police that almost every day 1 or several underage urchin boys came to the house to provide sex services when the farang was alive but most times not paid promised tips. Someone encouraged the urchin boys to report this to the police and apparently they did but with no result.)

 

A special unit of Thai police then arranged for a pawpers funeral. Buried wrapped in whte cloth, no coffin, no cremation and no headstone or other markings in a back corner of the local temple.  

 

39 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

And that can happen. An American acquaintance died in Pattaya sevearal years back. He had no relatives of close friends in Thailand (he was an unpleasant fellow who refused to speak to westerners. 

 

It was discovered that he had a younger brother in Utah, he as contactd by a Thai police unit and he strongly abused the Thai cop (cop spoke good English). Brother in Utah demanded that the Thai cop come to Utah immediately and bring the deceased body. 

 

Thai cops refused and insisted the brother come to Thailand and bring family documents.

 

It became a total mess with no action. Eventually the brother in Utah withdrew from the problem and refused to contribute any funds for a funeral in Pattaya. The deceased died with no funds whatever in the house and none in the several bank books found in the pattaya house. Several farng acquaintance (the deceased had no real friends) were approached for funds, all refused.  

 

A special unit of Thai police then arranged for a pawpers funeral. Buried wrapped in whte cloth, no coffin, no cremation and no headstone or other markings in a back corner of the local temple.  

Typical Westerner - "Oh my God...the poor man is given a - <gasp> - pauper's funeral.  Realistically that is all that is needed for the health and welfare of society which doesn't need rotten corpses stacking up in untended charnel grounds. However in some Buddhist and Hindu traditions, bodies are left to rot in charnel grounds, but these are set aside for just those practices in societies which adhere to those beliefs. You can definitely find them still in India.

But the bottom line - The guy is dead, and the dead body is little different than a rotting log. Westerns are over squeamish about death as a whole, and believe that a person's dead corpse is something special.  It isn't.  In some traditions, a body is simply taken out and left to the elements.  Consciousness is gone.  There is nothing there but the aggregates of the body in decomposition.  Btw, I've purchased my fair share of pauper caskets for the express purpose of being use by people with no other means of burial.  They can be found in Chinese temples and some Buddhist temples.  But realistically, if the guy was wrapped in cloth and buried in the back of some Buddhist temple - what of it? That's good enough!  The cops could have found this man a paid for pauper's coffin - they chose not to.

The Satipatthana Sutta (MN: 10) and the Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN: 119) include sections on cemetery contemplations which focus on nine stages of corpse decomposition (Pali: nava sīvathikā-manasikāra). These are:

1. A corpse that is "swollen, blue and festering."
2. A corpse that is "being eaten by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs, jackals or by different kinds of worms."
3. A corpse that is "reduced to a skeleton together with (some) flesh and blood held in by the tendons."
4. A corpse that is "reduced to a blood-besmeared skeleton without flesh but held in by the tendons."
5. A corpse that is "reduced to a skeleton held in by the tendons but without flesh and not besmeared with blood."
6. A corpse that is "reduced to bones gone loose, scattered in all directions."
7. A corpse that is "reduced to bones, white in color like a conch."
8. A corpse that is "reduced to bones more than a year old, heaped together."
9. A corpse that is "reduced to bones gone rotten and become dust."

53 minutes ago, connda said:

Typical Westerner - "Oh my God...the poor man is given a - <gasp> - pauper's funeral.  Realistically that is all that is needed for the health and welfare of society which doesn't need rotten corpses stacking up in untended charnel grounds. However in some Buddhist and Hindu traditions, bodies are left to rot in charnel grounds, but these are set aside for just those practices in societies which adhere to those beliefs. You can definitely find them still in India.

But the bottom line - The guy is dead, and the dead body is little different than a rotting log. Westerns are over squeamish about death as a whole, and believe that a person's dead corpse is something special.  It isn't.  In some traditions, a body is simply taken out and left to the elements.  Consciousness is gone.  There is nothing there but the aggregates of the body in decomposition.  Btw, I've purchased my fair share of pauper caskets for the express purpose of being use by people with no other means of burial.  They can be found in Chinese temples and some Buddhist temples.  But realistically, if the guy was wrapped in cloth and buried in the back of some Buddhist temple - what of it? That's good enough!  The cops could have found this man a paid for pauper's coffin - they chose not to.

The Satipatthana Sutta (MN: 10) and the Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN: 119) include sections on cemetery contemplations which focus on nine stages of corpse decomposition (Pali: nava sīvathikā-manasikāra). These are:

1. A corpse that is "swollen, blue and festering."
2. A corpse that is "being eaten by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs, jackals or by different kinds of worms."
3. A corpse that is "reduced to a skeleton together with (some) flesh and blood held in by the tendons."
4. A corpse that is "reduced to a blood-besmeared skeleton without flesh but held in by the tendons."
5. A corpse that is "reduced to a skeleton held in by the tendons but without flesh and not besmeared with blood."
6. A corpse that is "reduced to bones gone loose, scattered in all directions."
7. A corpse that is "reduced to bones, white in color like a conch."
8. A corpse that is "reduced to bones more than a year old, heaped together."
9. A corpse that is "reduced to bones gone rotten and become dust."

 

Thanks, some interesting information.

 

However I object to your attitude that I am an overreacting 'oh my god' foreigner.

I didn't express anythng like that.

 

I wrote the facts of the case as i know them and nothing more, and with no emotional expressions. The facts only, as I know them.

 

I don't disagree, when the body is dead it's dead and that's it.

 

You mention pawpers coffins and more, perhaps more people should be aware of these resources.  

Yeah, stories are interesting but can someone help the guy out? 

 

How about a checklist anyone?

 

I'd appreciate it as well 

Just now, scorecard said:

 

Thanks, some interesting information.

 

However I object to your attitude that I am an overreacting 'typical westerner, oh my god'...

 

I didn't express anythng like that.

 

I wrote the facts of the case as i know them and nothing more, and with no emotional expressions. The facts only, as I know them.

 

I don't disagree, when the body is dead it's dead and that's it.

 

You mention pawpers coffins and more, perhaps more people should be aware of these resources.  

 

1 hour ago, MarcusAurelius said:

How about a checklist anyone?

 

Here's the list:

1.  Contact the relevant embassy, they will have all the answers.  

I got the required docs from deceased’s sister today and just filed application to UK embassy on her behalf, with all required docs. Will learn within 3 days whether she would be allowed to be the appointee to arrange the cremation or not.

 

If not, then just have to refer her to one of those approved funeral director companies to handle - something that would in real life be fairly easy for her to handle locally in local style. 

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

However I object to your attitude that I am an overreacting 'oh my god' foreigner.

That wasn't aimed at you personally.  It's just my observation of how many if not most people from Western cultures that I've met over a lifetime.  I can't explain it other than I've never really have understood that sort of shared conception in Western culture that puts so much value on the bodies of the dead. I find it morbid, and I've thought this way since I was a kid.  I never understood it.  A lot Westerners whether Christians or not seem to hold a belief in the resurrection of the dead in some future, and even non-religious Westerners seem to believe the dead to be something that needs to be revered.  I just never have shared that.  I've seen enough dead people including my own daughter.  The dead are gone. There bodies are relics of what has been but which is no more.  There is nothing there to be revered. 

Apologies.   

1 hour ago, connda said:

That wasn't aimed at you personally.  It's just my observation of how many if not most people from Western cultures that I've met over a lifetime.  I can't explain it other than I've never really have understood that sort of shared conception in Western culture that puts so much value on the bodies of the dead. I find it morbid, and I've thought this way since I was a kid.  I never understood it.  A lot Westerners whether Christians or not seem to hold a belief in the resurrection of the dead in some future, and even non-religious Westerners seem to believe the dead to be something that needs to be revered.  I just never have shared that.  I've seen enough dead people including my own daughter.  The dead are gone. There bodies are relics of what has been but which is no more.  There is nothing there to be revered. 

Apologies.   

 

 

Well you're entitled to your beliefs.

 

I believe in respecting the dead and especially where they have contributed much value their family / society.

 

I saw acive combat service in the war in Vietnam. I was a platoon leader (50 men split into 5 sections of 10 men). Several times soldiers in my platioon were killed and several were ripped apart. 

 

When that happened they were more than just dead bodies, I experienced severe grief because I could never see them alive again nor talk with them. Or apoogize to them.

 

Plus in these circumstances a man / a respected friend was lying close to me / or a few metres way frome me and:

 

- I could not get to him / them, I would have been a sitting duck even crawling close to the ground. And that would have meant my platoon had no leader.

 

- I had to keep my thoughts focused. I was in severe grief but I had to very quickly analyse the situation and decide next steps to work towards our combat objective, in other words be a leader.  

 

- In these circumstances the platoon leader always had instant thoughts 'did I do something wrong / did I wrongly order the men / some of the men to move into a closer / different situation / take a specific action that was just not appropriate  and expose this dead young man / these men and they died. 

 

- And at the same time make a plan how to get the dead body quickly returned to our base. Leaving the body there was not an option, there was always the possibility the enemy soldiers would find the body, mutilate it in some way and perhaps we would never see the body again and that meant documents to go home to the family 'we have no knowledge what happpned to your son's dead body'. More grief.

 

- More than just a dead body, extreme grief. 

 

 

15 hours ago, mran66 said:

The pending issue is cremation. She was told she need to keep the coffin in her house with the freezer box running (lights on 24hr a day and incense too) until embassy gives permission to cremate it. Creepy. 

Bodies are normally embalmed before going home or to the temple, not sure if done by the hospital or a third party.

My father in law was on the verandah for a week before being interred.

15 hours ago, mran66 said:

As we speak, the body is in a refrigerated coffin in his house in sakhon Nakhon. He died of cancer complications in a local hospital there, and the body was released to his gf. She has the death certificate. He has various cancers for a decade or so, finally internal organs gave up. Only a super paranoid would have concerns about reason of death in his situation.

Quite.  If the death certificate has been issued then there will be no further police or medical intervention. 

Dealing with the embassy and getting permission to cremate is more to do with family issues. Should be fairly straightforward if family co-operative and little money involved.

@mran66 I´ve had a few people I knew that died during my time here. However, that has been a few Swedes, some German´s, a Canadian and 2 Australians. Probably more, but no one from UK. However, I don´t recall it was anything that was difficult, if the UK don´t have special rules and regulations. What we or the dead persons wife did was:

 

As long as embassy papers was not shown, the bodies were not released from the hospital. When papers shown, the body was moved to the home in a refrigerated coffin.

 

But here it seems like you already have the body released, and to me, that tells the papers are already shown. To me, that means you only have left to deal with the temple and arrange the burning of the body.