The logic of masking

[thaibeachlovers]

On 7/16/2020 at 3:35 PM, Logosone said:

I do actually.

 

Since 0.8% of the population have the virus and 0.43% are asymptomatic you can estimate that around 99.2% people do not have the virus.

 

And of course you will know if someone is sick, sick people tend to have symptoms, in the very vast majority of cases. Asymptomatic transmission is so rare, 0-2.3% that you can discount that possibility really.

 

 

It's also possible that many people had such slight symptoms that they had the virus and recovered without knowing that they were infected. Many, apparently, never know they are infected till they have a test.

Therefore, given that many have not been tested, the number of people that had the virus and are no longer infectious could, IMO, be way higher than assumed.

[Trujillo]

True. 

 

The fact is we should be concerned about the numbers of people requiring a visit to the doctor, not people who may have been infected but have either no illness or negligible effects. 

 

I met an Englishman who was opening a doomed restaurant venture who not only refused to shake hands, but backed away (no one in the restaurant had masks -- there were no customers) at the thought. I said, "But Thailand has not had a case in months," to which he replied that the Thai government was lying and that there was no massive random testing here (meaning I suppose that cases equal DANGER). I asked him what benefit the government would obtain from lying and he said something along the lines of, "This is Thailand," by way of some blanket explanation. 

 

I thought, "Jesus Christ, this guy is probably missing England with all their re-lockdowns and masking hysteria about now." And followed closely by: "If he's really so terrified of a virus, being in a restaurant all day is not the best place to be, what with people not masking up (eating) and touching utensils with their hands and mouths, and plates and uneaten food...like a golldarn petri dish!"

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, Trujillo said:

True. 

 

The fact is we should be concerned about the numbers of people requiring a visit to the doctor, not people who may have been infected but have either no illness or negligible effects. 

 

I met an Englishman who was opening a doomed restaurant venture who not only refused to shake hands, but backed away (no one in the restaurant had masks -- there were no customers) at the thought. I said, "But Thailand has not had a case in months," to which he replied that the Thai government was lying and that there was no massive random testing here (meaning I suppose that cases equal DANGER). I asked him what benefit the government would obtain from lying and he said something along the lines of, "This is Thailand," by way of some blanket explanation. 

 

I thought, "Jesus Christ, this guy is probably missing England with all their re-lockdowns and masking hysteria about now." And followed closely by: "If he's really so terrified of a virus, being in a restaurant all day is not the best place to be, what with people not masking up (eating) and touching utensils with their hands and mouths, and plates and uneaten food...like a golldarn petri dish!"

 

 

The fact is we should be concerned about the numbers of people requiring a visit to the doctor,

 

Surely, as it's a virus and like flu not treatable with medication other than for the symptoms, like the flu, one should stay home and not potentially infect Drs and nurses till, and if, one is sick enough to need hospital care.

The NZ government says to stay home if infected, and NZ GPs won't allow anyone with potential corona inside their clinics.

 

Other than that I agree with you.

[Captain Monday]

Over the next few months the country will be opening up more. The virus will persist for years to come whether there is a vaccine or not the need for masks  and social distancing will be thus MORE important. Everything has changed, no more glad-handing and blowing spittle on each other. What's wrong with a way <wai>  or bow? Masks today, masks tomorrow masks forever.

 

Will you wear a mask?

[Trujillo]

I think it's safe to say that every single person who has recently tested positive for covid in the Samut Sakhon incident were wearing masks, since everyone is.

Funny, since we are all told how necessary and how protective they are. Oh, wait...right....

 

"A study conducted in the United States in July found that when they compared 154 “case-patients,” who tested positive for COVID-19, to a control group of 160 participants from health care facilities who were symptomatic but tested negative, over 70 percent of the case-patients were contaminated with the virus and fell ill despite “always” wearing a mask."

 

But the CDC still says they are worth wearing...

 

"Hey, buy this car. The brakes only work 70 percent of the time, but otherwise it's a gem...."

 

-- CDC-study-finds-overwhelming-majority-of-people-getting-coronavirus-wore-masks

 

Oops...

 

But that's doesn't dovetail in to the narrative, does it? Same for the Dutch study. 

 

"'Our trial of more than 6,000 participants here in Denmark found similar rates of SARS-CoV-2 infection in those who did and those who did not receive a recommendation to wear a surgical face mask when outside the home,' said Henning Bundgaard, the study’s lead author and University of Copenhagen, in a video.

He cautioned that, 'Our study does not address the effectiveness of widespread mask use for preventing the spread of infection from those infected with SARS-CoV-2.""

 

-- Mask-effectiveness-study-denmark-counter-cdc-recom

 

Oh well, at least we will be able to find out, in time, how rebreathing your own carbon dioxide will affect one's health (and the health of [small] children) by wearing masks all the time. Just breathing out we expel about 4% CO2....

 

(The gas exhaled is 4% to 5% by volume of carbon dioxide, about a 100 fold increase over the inhaled amount. -- Wiki)

 

"Concentrations of CO2 >10% may cause convulsions, coma and death."

-- Carbon dioxide poisoning abstract

 

....to be continued....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Trujillo said:

I think it's safe to say that every single person who has recently tested positive for covid in the Samut Sakhon incident were wearing masks, since everyone is.

Funny, since we are all told how necessary and how protective they are. Oh, wait...right....

 

"A study conducted in the United States in July found that when they compared 154 “case-patients,” who tested positive for COVID-19, to a control group of 160 participants from health care facilities who were symptomatic but tested negative, over 70 percent of the case-patients were contaminated with the virus and fell ill despite “always” wearing a mask."

 

But the CDC still says they are worth wearing...

 

"Hey, buy this car. The brakes only work 70 percent of the time, but otherwise it's a gem...."

 

-- CDC-study-finds-overwhelming-majority-of-people-getting-coronavirus-wore-masks

 

Oops...

 

But that's doesn't dovetail in to the narrative, does it? Same for the Dutch study. 

 

"'Our trial of more than 6,000 participants here in Denmark found similar rates of SARS-CoV-2 infection in those who did and those who did not receive a recommendation to wear a surgical face mask when outside the home,' said Henning Bundgaard, the study’s lead author and University of Copenhagen, in a video.

He cautioned that, 'Our study does not address the effectiveness of widespread mask use for preventing the spread of infection from those infected with SARS-CoV-2.""

 

-- Mask-effectiveness-study-denmark-counter-cdc-recom

 

Oh well, at least we will be able to find out, in time, how rebreathing your own carbon dioxide will affect one's health (and the health of [small] children) by wearing masks all the time. Just breathing out we expel about 4% CO2....

 

(The gas exhaled is 4% to 5% by volume of carbon dioxide, about a 100 fold increase over the inhaled amount. -- Wiki)

 

"Concentrations of CO2 >10% may cause convulsions, coma and death."

-- Carbon dioxide poisoning abstract

 

....to be continued....

 

The CDC study, found here https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6936a5-H.pdf  , shows the risk of infection from crowds, not masks.  The study group of mask wearers were almost three times as likely to report close contact with someone known to have Covid 19 than the control group (42.2% vs 14.5%); one expects a much higher infection rate among those who have been in contact with someone known to have Covid 19.  The CDC study also did not address the benefits of preventing disease transfer by having infected people wear a mask.  Thank you for the fine example of blatantly cherry picking data to reach an erroneous result.

 

Regarding the Danish study:  Why didn't you link directly to the Danish study, which compares results between study participants who received a recommendation to wear a mask vs those who didn't receive such a recommendation?

 

"Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others."   https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

 

A better summary of the study of the study results:

 

"The study found that face masks did not have a large protective effect for wearers — not that masks provide no protection at all or don’t offer benefits to others. "   https://www.factcheck.org/2020/11/danish-study-doesnt-prove-masks-dont-work-against-the-coronavirus/

 

Funny that the Washington Times published their story the day after Russia Today published a similar story titled "Landmark Danish study casts doubt on effectiveness of mask-wearing alone as effective Covid-19 strategy".  I won't give the link since TV frowns on using RT as a source.

 

Yes, we know breathing too much carbon dioxide is bad.  Any studies showing that wearing masks pushes the inhalation to dangerous levels?

 

 

[cdemundo]

On 6/30/2020 at 8:05 PM, wwest5829 said:

Just a friendly note. The bubonic plague is caused by a bacteria and is still with us. It is treatable now unlike in earlier mass outbreaks.

 

I noticed that as well.  The problem with a lot of these discussions about the pandemic is that they are an exercise in "pooling ignorance" rather than "pooling knowledge".  I studied biology at uni and complained in grad school about all the cell biology we were required to study that I thought was irrelevant.  Still I am overwhelmed with what I don't know about the science related to the pandemic.  Some posters here are very knowledgeable, but I am not always sure about who knows their stuff and who just sounds plausible.

[dingdongrb]

"So then you're confident that there has been no illegal border crossings occurring and someone hasn't carried the virus into the country unknowingly?"

 

Hmmmmm...... I wonder who posted that back in July?

[canthai55]

3 hours ago, cdemundo said:

 

The problem with a lot of these discussions about the pandemic is that they are an exercise in "pooling ignorance" rather than "pooling knowledge".

Nice one - like that !

I call them Covidiots

[dingdongrb]

On 12/26/2020 at 5:48 AM, dingdongrb said:

"So then you're confident that there has been no illegal border crossings occurring and someone hasn't carried the virus into the country unknowingly?"

 

Hmmmmm...... I wonder who posted that back in July?

It appears that all the naysayers have broken keypads or are still on holiday.....  LOL

[Mavideol]

2 minutes ago, dingdongrb said:

It appears that all the naysayers have broken keypads or are still on holiday.....  LOL

names please, links please 555

[Trujillo]

I am particularly interested in seeing numerous adults putting baby masks on young children and toddlers. Just an hour ago I saw a kid -- probably about 18 months old -- wearing a little custom baby mask (the child did not look quite at the age to walk yet).

These parents fit into the "....then you are an idiot" category. Aside from totally unnecessary, I can't help but wonder how the physical and -- more importantly -- the mental progress of the child will be as it rebreathes its air/carbon dioxide (when outside the house [I hope they don't do this at home, but then another "...then you are an idiot" act I always see is people driving alone wearing a mask....subcategory: Brainwashing complete. So the Idiocracy is already well developed and gaining strength].)

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, Trujillo said:

I am particularly interested in seeing numerous adults putting baby masks on young children and toddlers. Just an hour ago I saw a kid -- probably about 18 months old -- wearing a little custom baby mask (the child did not look quite at the age to walk yet).

These parents fit into the "....then you are an idiot" category. Aside from totally unnecessary, I can't help but wonder how the physical and -- more importantly -- the mental progress of the child will be as it rebreathes its air/carbon dioxide (when outside the house [I hope they don't do this at home, but then another "...then you are an idiot" act I always see is people driving alone wearing a mask....subcategory: Brainwashing complete. So the Idiocracy is already well developed and gaining strength].)

We're still waiting for credible evidence that wearing a mask causes harmful levels of carbon dioxide inhalation.

[heybruce]

17 hours ago, Trujillo said:

I am particularly interested in seeing numerous adults putting baby masks on young children and toddlers. Just an hour ago I saw a kid -- probably about 18 months old -- wearing a little custom baby mask (the child did not look quite at the age to walk yet).

These parents fit into the "....then you are an idiot" category. Aside from totally unnecessary, I can't help but wonder how the physical and -- more importantly -- the mental progress of the child will be as it rebreathes its air/carbon dioxide (when outside the house [I hope they don't do this at home, but then another "...then you are an idiot" act I always see is people driving alone wearing a mask....subcategory: Brainwashing complete. So the Idiocracy is already well developed and gaining strength].)

"I can't help but wonder how the physical and -- more importantly -- the mental progress of the child will be as it rebreathes its air/carbon dioxide"

 

You could do more than wonder; you could look for credible evidence that this is a problem.  But it's more fun to cause unfounded fear, isn't it?

[heybruce]

17 hours ago, Trujillo said:

I am particularly interested in seeing numerous adults putting baby masks on young children and toddlers. Just an hour ago I saw a kid -- probably about 18 months old -- wearing a little custom baby mask (the child did not look quite at the age to walk yet).

These parents fit into the "....then you are an idiot" category. Aside from totally unnecessary, I can't help but wonder how the physical and -- more importantly -- the mental progress of the child will be as it rebreathes its air/carbon dioxide (when outside the house [I hope they don't do this at home, but then another "...then you are an idiot" act I always see is people driving alone wearing a mask....subcategory: Brainwashing complete. So the Idiocracy is already well developed and gaining strength].)

"I can't help but wonder how the physical and -- more importantly -- the mental progress of the child will be as it rebreathes its air/carbon dioxide"

 

You could do more than wonder; you could look for credible evidence that this is a problem.  But it's more fun to cause unfounded fear, isn't it?

[TheAppletons]

"A new study found that masks are 99.9% effective in reducing the spread of large virus droplets that can increase the transmission of COVID-19. The study, which was published in the journal Royal Society Open Science, found that a person standing two yards away from a masked individual who is coughing would be exposed to 10,000 times more of these droplets if that individual was not wearing a mask."

 

https://www.kmjnow.com/news/new-study-masks-block-99-9-percent-of-large-covid-19-droplets/

[lannarebirth]

My wife will be travelling from Thailand back to the states in the next few weeks. 2 legs and a fairly long layover. Can someone tell me please where she can buy an N-95 mask there in Chiang Mai?  Thank You!

[Dante99]

27 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

My wife will be travelling from Thailand back to the states in the next few weeks. 2 legs and a fairly long layover. Can someone tell me please where she can buy an N-95 mask there in Chiang Mai?  Thank You!

CMU Pharmacy on Suthep Road has had them is stock often but no guarantee that they have them right now.  You could call and ask, they have a lot of English speakers.

[lannarebirth]

51 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

CMU Pharmacy on Suthep Road has had them is stock often but no guarantee that they have them right now.  You could call and ask, they have a lot of English speakers.

 

Thanks very much. I'm in the states but I'll have my wife give them a call. She's not far from there.

[Trujillo]

Given that for the past months Thais have been wearing masks like members of a zealous religious cult, and given that there has been a recent uptick in "cases," (which are distinct from actual illness), one could conclude that a virus is not stopped by virtually the entire population wearing masks. 

[Dante99]

10 minutes ago, Trujillo said:

one could conclude that a virus is not stopped by virtually the entire population wearing masks. 

Where did anyone expect or suggest it would be stopped by mask wearing?

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

Where did anyone expect or suggest it would be stopped by mask wearing?

Some people have been claiming that they do, for at least a year, on this forum and on the media.

Telling me that I'm going to kill other people if I don't wear one would imply that they think masks stop the virus transmission.

[Dante99]

34 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Some people have been claiming that they do, for at least a year, on this forum and on the media.

Telling me that I'm going to kill other people if I don't wear one would imply that they think masks stop the virus transmission.

Perhaps so.  Masks seem to have been recommended as a way to reduce the problem, can not recall them stated to eliminate it but undoubtedly somebody did.

[BritManToo]

55 minutes ago, Trujillo said:

Given that for the past months Thais have been wearing masks like members of a zealous religious cult, and given that there has been a recent uptick in "cases," (which are distinct from actual illness), one could conclude that a virus is not stopped by virtually the entire population wearing masks. 

Maybe where you live, but not where i live outside Chiang Mai.

almost nobody in the village wearing a mask (over their mouth and nose), just for entering 7-11/banks.

[VocalNeal]

On 12/25/2020 at 9:18 PM, Trujillo said:

Oh well, at least we will be able to find out, in time, how rebreathing your own carbon dioxide will affect one's health

 

Last year the Thai Minister of Health advised not wearing a mask whilst running. I assume for the CO2 reason.

[JAS21]

1 hour ago, Trujillo said:

Given that for the past months Thais have been wearing masks like members of a zealous religious cult, and given that there has been a recent uptick in "cases," (which are distinct from actual illness), one could conclude that a virus is not stopped by virtually the entire population wearing masks. 

We have stayed at six different hotels in the last three weeks. At only two of them did I see every person wearing a mask when they went to choose their food at breakfast. Of course many had their mask dangling around their neck.....

 

Given that for the past months Thais have been wearing masks like members of a zealous religious cult ... I wonder if this has been the case recently  at certain entertainment venues and night clubs ....  

[Salerno]

1 hour ago, Trujillo said:

Given that for the past months Thais have been wearing masks like members of a zealous religious cult

 

Which alternative Thailand do you live in?

[Trujillo]

"Which alternative Thailand do you live in?"

 

I live in Chiang Mai. 

 

“Face masks should not be worn by healthy individuals to protect themselves from acquiring respiratory infection because there is no evidence to suggest that face masks worn by healthy individuals are effective in preventing people from becoming ill.”

-- JAMA (The Journal of the American Medical Association)

 

Masking: A Careful Review of the Evidence

-- American Institute for Economic Research

 

"While the evidence may seem conflicted, the evidence (including the peer-reviewed evidence) actually does not support its use (a mask) and leans heavily toward masks having no significant impact in stopping spread of the Covid virus."

 

 

Masking Children: Tragic, Unscientific, and Damaging

-- American Institute for Economic Research

 

"Children do not readily acquire SARS-CoV-2 (very low risk), spread it to other children or teachers, or endanger parents or others at home. This is the settled science. In the rare cases where a child contracts Covid virus it is very unusual for the child to get severely ill or die. Masking can do positive harm to children – as it can to some adults. But the cost benefit analysis is entirely different for adults and children – particularly younger children. Whatever arguments there may be for consenting adults – children should not be required to wear masks to prevent the spread of Covid-19."

 

And finally, Oh Canada:

 

Health Canada ….“discovered during a preliminary risk assessment that the masks contain microscopic graphene particles that, when inhaled, could cause severe lung damage.”

 

"Radio-Canada has obtained documents showing Health Canada warned of the potential for "early pulmonary toxicity" from the SNN200642 masks which are made in China and sold and distributed by Métallifer, a Quebec-based manufacturer."

-- edit: these are the ubiquitous blue "paper" masks that people seem to think have some efficacy. 

 

-- CBC News

 

 

 

 

[Salerno]

What relevance are those links to your claim which I responded to:

  

5 hours ago, Trujillo said:

Given that for the past months Thais have been wearing masks like members of a zealous religious cult,

 

[Trujillo]

Let's put this in another, less politized context. 

 

If the SARS-CoV-2 virus were dengue fever-carrying mosquitoes and masks were mosquito repellent, you can be absolutely sure that by now pretty much everyone would be saying that this insect spray doesn't work.