How long do high-rise concrete structures last?

[userabcd]

Deleted

Edited September 19, 2021 by userabcd

[Liverpool Lou]

12 hours ago, Delight said:

21 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

The weight of my initial comment was tongue-in-cheek, as I have stated, but, as you want to carry on with serious allegations about this, and you say that it has happened here in Thailand, I imagine you also have an example of what is being discussed in this thread actually happening, yes?  

 Yes -for certain

 

I also know how they fixed it.

Drain the pool. It worked

But, as I expected, not one specific example, so far, of the "sub-standard construction" being reported that so many posters are claiming has happened here.  Well done.   

Edited September 19, 2021 by Liverpool Lou

[digger70]

21 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I'm not twisting your words; this is what you posted...

"Probable would've been on the Plan but that doesn't say they've Built the Building strong enough to carry that extra weight"

If that is not suggesting that there is a real danger that the building is not strong enough to support it's own weight or that it is something that is known to happen here, I'm not sure what is.

 

Perhaps you meant to post, "Probable would've been on the Plan but that doesn't say they've not Built the Building strong enough to carry that extra weight".

As I said I Never said , that is a real danger here in Thailand .

I Merely said that

On 9/18/2021 at 12:28 PM, digger70 said:

Probable would've been on the Plan but that doesn't say they've Built the Building strong enough to carry that extra weight. . 

So let it be .

[treetops]

On 9/18/2021 at 4:33 AM, mikebike said:

Apparently you have no concept of how structural engineering works.

And apparently you have no concept of how chat forums work.  You really need to read and understand before you post otherwise you look silly, as in your case here.

[zappalot]

On 9/19/2021 at 12:54 AM, bangkokbonecollector said:

Basically I would be worried about any condo or high rise building that was built between 1985 and 2000 when corruption was f'''ing rife. I mean this sort of thing can and does happen anywhere, check out Sampoong Department Store collapse, hundreds died.

My wife worked as an accountant for a big contractor for high rises in Bangkok (she quit 2011). Corruption was not at all limited to between 1985 and 2000. And it was present on all levels from top management to the lower ranks, wherever someone should keep quiet about substandard procedures applied...

[bangkokbonecollector]

On 9/24/2021 at 10:56 AM, zappalot said:

My wife worked as an accountant for a big contractor for high rises in Bangkok (she quit 2011). Corruption was not at all limited to between 1985 and 2000. And it was present on all levels from top management to the lower ranks, wherever someone should keep quiet about substandard procedures applied...

I have no doubt that it is true, very scary!

[LarrySR]

7 hours ago, bangkokbonecollector said:

I have no doubt that it is true, very scary!

Lots of opportunity for misdeeds in the construction of a concrete structure and with the financial incentives to cut corners, including the morality, ethics, greed and incompetence of the owners, designers, contractors, inspectors, laborers and management...

......what could possible go wrong?

 

A long lasting structure needs first class engineering / design. 

Then contractors need to use the specified size rebars, the correct amount and precise placement of said rebars, the precise recipe of the concrete mix,  proper installation, (not watering down the mix in a hot climate to make it easier to pump and pour), curing the concrete, weatherproofing / sealing, drainage, inspections and professional maintenance / competent management.

 

 

 

[digbeth]

One area of condo law that is in need of updating is the dissolution of condo, I think right now if a new developer were to come in and use the land for something else, they'd first have to convince every owner to sell up to get unanimous vote from all the co-owner, a better ratio of majority present for 2-3 times should do the trick, but then there's real danger of developer just gobbling up rooms to get majority 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, digbeth said:

One area of condo law that is in need of updating is the dissolution of condo, I think right now if a new developer were to come in and use the land for something else, they'd first have to convince every owner to sell up to get unanimous vote from all the co-owner, a better ratio of majority present for 2-3 times should do the trick, but then there's real danger of developer just gobbling up rooms to get majority 

    I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about a developer 'gobbling up' rooms to get a majority.  I do agree that the vote to dissolve a condo project should not be unanimous, but rather 75 or 80%.  These days you'd be hard pressed to get 100% to agree on what day of the week it is.  

[kwonitoy]

On 9/29/2021 at 6:36 AM, LarrySR said:

Lots of opportunity for misdeeds in the construction of a concrete structure and with the financial incentives to cut corners, including the morality, ethics, greed and incompetence of the owners, designers, contractors, inspectors, laborers and management...

......what could possible go wrong?

 

A long lasting structure needs first class engineering / design. 

Then contractors need to use the specified size rebars, the correct amount and precise placement of said rebars, the precise recipe of the concrete mix,  proper installation, (not watering down the mix in a hot climate to make it easier to pump and pour), curing the concrete, weatherproofing / sealing, drainage, inspections and professional maintenance / competent management.

 

 

 

It's not just Thailand specific for cut corners in construction.

 

In Edmonton Alberta I x-rayed the walls on some high rise structures for the purpose of counting the amount of rebar in the walls. Not one building had the amount stated on the engineering diagrams.

If there is no inspector on site verifying rebar it is a juicy spot to cut costs, or embezzle money.

In Mexico City they didn't even use rebar, just heavy gauge wire. That's always a common one in Thailand BTW

Ask a contractor to do a slump test for the concrete and see how many funny looks you get.

People just assume if its concrete it must be sound.

If there were ever a substantial earthquake, Bangkok's skyline would be drastically changed.

[bangkokbonecollector]

All very scary stuff. Thanks for all the additional information, I have always wanted to know more about building and engineering.  ????

[cooked]

23 hours ago, kwonitoy said:

It's not just Thailand specific for cut corners in construction.

 

Ask a contractor to do a slump test for the concrete and see how many funny looks you get.

People just assume if its concrete it must be sound.

If there were ever a substantial earthquake, Bangkok's skyline would be drastically changed.

As a naive engineering student on a huge building site in the UK (Scammonden dam) I was sent (once) to do a slump test. I sent the load back and so was never allowed to do another slump test. I later learned that you can cheat even a slump test with a driver and a whole work crew watching.

[jazzdog32095]

Typically when there are rust stained cracks and blow outs of concrete the cancer has taken hold and R&R is mandatory. This is usually because of inadequate cover. The amount of concrete covering rebar, varies depending on diameter of rebar. Maintaining cover is critical and difficult in areas where many pieces overlap ie: beam to column connections. Also very difficult to inspect and left to the the placement crews. This condo is not unique in that many have design flaws, oxidized rebar and deferred maintenance. Scores of condos in S. Florida should be leveled. CB C-053057 

[RubbaJohnny]

Well the Coliseum n Rome has lasted well. If you use quality material , competent labour, do not cut corners should last a lot longer than a lot of shoddy 20th century stuff.

 

https://www.sciencealert.com/why-2-000-year-old-roman-concrete-is-so-much-better-than-what-we-produce-today

[jazzdog32095]

On 9/18/2021 at 5:00 AM, LarrySR said:

The weight of the pool water will not be an issue in a properly engineered structure unless the pool has hidden leaks and the supporting floor/columns are weakened. 

The problem with the high rise pools is, the plumbing, walls and floor are hidden from view, usually only accessible from a dark, tight crawl space that may not be inspected by Somchai for decades. 

The intersection of a supporting column and slab floor could easily fail if the rebar has rusted.

 

As in the Florida condo collapse, it is speculated a column pushed thru the slab, (punching shear) instantly shifting the load on adjacent columns that also were weakened by rust, creating a chain reaction that caused the building to collapse in seconds.

 

Check the "Building Integrity" YouTube channel for an engineers viewpoint on the story of greed and incompetence, with a contractor cutting corners, developers bribing city officials, lazy inspectors & questionable maintenance resulting poorly constructing buildings sold to an unsuspecting public......in Florida.

 

 

Actually the design flaw was the fact the pool deck beams connected to an perpendicular beam that had no beams connected from the opposite direction, limiting deflection of the beam that supported the building which likely would have limited the collapse to the pool deck alone. A bonehead mistake, possibly cost cutting.

[VocalNeal]

On 9/17/2021 at 5:55 PM, jobsworth said:

 

Stonehenge was extensively rebuilt in about 1902. Many of the fallen stone pillars were set upright in concrete. So what you see today is not that old,

Greek, Roman and Egyptian structures are built of stone and suffer only minor earthquake damage.