Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[Hellfire]

16 minutes ago, tgw said:

the most disgusting is that Putin's 4 children with his girlfriend Alina Kabajewa are Swiss citizens.

 

 

As I wrote above, this is a typical behaviour of the Russian elite as a whole. They sell anti-westernism and anti-americanism to the masses. But all their own actions signals the opposite.  They love and worship the West. All those "anti" rhetorics are simply used to control the population which is INDEED poisoned by the anti-western propaganda (stemming and supported by the 70 years old Soviet time propaganda).

I would like people in the West got rid of the illusion that there is Putin and there are people. Just think about the Gitler's Germany and you will get , more or less, a true picture. There would not be any kind of Putin if there would not be a true request for his policy in the minds of millions and millions Russian people. This is a deeply ill society that needs to be treated. 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Hellfire

[Chris.B]

4 minutes ago, tgw said:

the most disgusting is that Putin's 4 children with his girlfriend Alina Kabajewa are Swiss citizens.

 

Didn't bother the Swiss who they dealt with 77 years ago as well.

 

[Bkk Brian]

9 hours ago, tgw said:

now it's 50.

https://kyivindependent.com/national/at-least-39-killed-by-russian-strike-on-train-station-with-evacuating-civilians/

 

these sick Russians play the game that they don't know about what the separatists are doing.

so they swear the Russian forces didn't do it.

in fact, technically, the "Russian" forces don't have the Tochka-U missile in their arsenal.

 

in reality, the separatists have received the Russian missiles and launched that attack on Kramatorsk.

 

the launch was even documented on video.

 

but LPR, DPR, are all in the same boat with war criminal Putin and his accomplices.

 

the separatists also downed MH17 using a Russian air defense system. Russia: "oops, hey, it wasn't us !!!"

 

they just shoot on anything like the barbarians they are.

 

 

When the missiles first struck the Russians were jumping for joy on the success.

 

Russia's defense ministry initially said it used high-precision rockets on three railway stations in the Donbas today. But after the scale of the casualties in Kramatorsk became clear, it claimed the strike was a "provocation" that "has nothing to do with reality."

 

Kremlin affiliated media first proudly reported the #Kramatorsk massacre, claiming their missile hit an ammunition train that arrived yesterday evening. After the appearance of civilian casualties, they started blaming Ukraine.

 

Then they started to muddy the waters claiming that they do not have any Tochka missiles. Yet they forgot they were bragging about them recently.

 

"Russia’s defense ministry claims it doesn’t have the Tochka-U missiles used in the horrific rocket attack on Kramatorsk today. But just weeks ago they were boasting about using them in exercises just before the war. Not even bothering to find a good excuse"

 

This from a Reuters report on the 28th Feb: just after they invaded

"There also appears to be evidence that Russia has used the OTR-21 Tochka SRBM, which was believed to have been retired, he said. "If these were in storage, Russia may have decided to put them to use, rather than scrap them."

 

This video from and information from the 5th March confirming delivery in Ukraine of Tochka missle systems:

"Russia is running out of missiles for the Iskander missile systems. Today at 15:20 (Minsk time) about 30 Tochka-U tactical missile systems departed from the military airfield in Machulishchy. There were no license plates or marks on the vehicles. 1/5"

 

Another video of them being transported here with the V sign on them:

Pentagon has stated that they have been able to confirm that the Russians have used them to supplement the launches of the Iskanders, since the Tochka-U are way cheaper and they have a lot in storage. here Is a trainload of Russian Tochka-U TEL with russian camos and markings

 

They are lying <deleted> and the apologists who read and believe this propaganda <deleted> on TASS and the likes are no better.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Bodies of 132 civilians shot by Russian troops found in Makariv, Kyiv region

 

"We have seen their [Russian troops’] atrocities in the liberated territories. As of yesterday, we found 132 civilians who had been shot dead by Russian orcs, I can't call them people," Makariv village head Vadym Tokar said during the nationwide telethon, an Ukrinform correspondent reports.

He said that houses in the village were bombed, a hospital, kindergartens and almost all infrastructure were destroyed.

[CatCage]

Slovakia sends S-300 air defence system to Ukraine

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNEStBdM7EI

 

[tgw]

3 minutes ago, CatCage said:

Slovakia sends S-300 air defence system to Ukraine

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNEStBdM7EI

 

just one, sadly

 

meanwhile:

UK and Germany won’t send tanks to Ukraine

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-germany-rule-out-send-tanks-ukraine/

 

what are they thinking ?  

????

Edited April 9, 2022 by tgw

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

just one, sadly

 

meanwhile:

UK and Germany won’t send tanks to Ukraine

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-germany-rule-out-send-tanks-ukraine/

 

what are they thinking ?  

????

I think that if these are delivered in sufficient quantities:

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10697657/Britain-send-anti-ship-missiles-armoured-vehicles-Ukraine-Putins-offensive-ramps-up.html

 

they will be far more useful to Ukraine than tanks.

[rudi49jr]

4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

He said that houses in the village were bombed, a hospital, kindergartens and almost all infrastructure were destroyed.

Nearly 100 health facilities in Ukraine have been attacked by Russian forces since the war started, according to the World Health Organization. 
 

The Russians are fighting an increasingly dirty war. Hope those responsible for all the atrocities will get their comeuppance some day soon.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/dozens-of-ukrainian-hospitals-hit-by-russian-forces/av-61390201

[Chris.B]

3 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

The Russians are fighting an increasingly dirty war.

The Russians are fighting an increasingly dirty desperate war.

[rudi49jr]

20 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

The Russians are fighting an increasingly dirty desperate war.

 

The more desperate you get, the dirtier you start to fight. Judging by how dirty the Russians fight right now, they must be very desperate. Although I do believe it was ordered by the Kremlin from the get go - or at least after a few days, when it became clear that the Ukrainians were fighting back hard - to use terror as a weapon. It has been their MO for a long time now, in Chechnya, in Georgia, in Syria: they really don’t care how many civilians they have to kill, and in what way, and the kind of destruction they cause, to achieve their goals. 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

The more desperate you get, the dirtier you start to fight. Judging by how dirty the Russians fight right now, they must be very desperate. Although I do believe it was ordered by the Kremlin from the get go - or at least after a few days, when it became clear that the Ukrainians were fighting back hard - to use terror as a weapon. It has been their MO for a long time now, in Chechnya, in Georgia, in Syria: they really don’t care how many civilians they have to kill, and in what way, and the kind of destruction they cause, to achieve their goals. 

Yes and Putin doesn't care about the lives of his own troops either.

There is no existential threat to Russia from Ukraine but there is an existential threat to Putin if he badly loses. So he will do anything to win. To Putin he IS the state. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Jingthing

[rudi49jr]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes and Putin doesn't care about the lives of his own troops either.

That’s the hallmark of the megalomaniacal narcissistic dictator, they don’t care about anything or anyone but themselves. They use all kinds of bombastic rhetoric about god and country and whatnot, but in the end it’s all about ego and power. What always puzzles me no end is how many people keep blindly following these ‘leaders’, time and time again, like lemmings off a cliff, it just boggles the mind.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

That’s the hallmark of the megalomaniacal narcissistic dictator, they don’t care about anything or anyone but themselves. They use all kinds of bombastic rhetoric about god and country and whatnot, but in the end it’s all about ego and power. What always puzzles me no end is how many people keep blindly following these ‘leaders’, time and time again, like lemmings off a cliff, it just boggles the mind.

Russians feel they need a strong man leader. Its deeply cultural and arguably related to the fundamentals of such a vast nation.

[Chris.B]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Russians feel they need a strong man leader. Its deeply cultural and arguably related to the fundamentals of such a vast nation.

In that case then, they are all to blame.

 

[rudi49jr]

This is very interesting:

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/chairman-russias-rusal-calls-investigation-bucha-killings-2022-04-08/

“April 8 (Reuters) - The chairman of Russian aluminium giant Rusal called on Thursday for an impartial investigation into the killing of civilians in the Ukrainian town of Bucha, which he described as a crime, and urged an end to the "fratricidal" conflict.

While the statement from Chairman Bernard Zonneveld, a Dutch national, did not touch on who was to blame for the deaths of civilians in the town, it is unusual for a large Russian company to comment publicly on the conflict.”

 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, Chris.B said:

In that case then, they are all to blame.

 

I don't think that's fair.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I don't think that's fair.

I totally agree but it's also not fair to suggest only a small percentage of Russian people share complicity in this disaster. 

[tgw]

6 hours ago, Chris.B said:

In that case then, they are all to blame.

 

nah.

strong leader doesn't automatically imply war-mongering butcher.

Churchill

De Gaulle

Roosevelt

Ataturk

Eisenhower

...

 

but those of Russians who condone Putin's current actions are certainly to blame. I don't wish them well.

 

like those pieces of trash:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/05/motorcade-of-shame-outrage-over-pro-russia-displays-at-berlin-rally

 

and it is also important to not demonize all Russians.

there are scores of Russians now doing prison time for protesting the war.

 

after this is all over, a good purge is in order - they are used to it - and then we should be prepared to welcome a democratic Russia back into civilization. minus maybe some hundred thousand criminals.

 

Russia will need a de-fascisation programme, similar to Germany after WW2

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by tgw

[rudi49jr]

10 minutes ago, tgw said:

don't the Russians have any shame ?

After what we have seen so far from them (and definitely will see more of in the future): silly question. There is literally no limit to the depths the Russians will stoop to, I am quite sure of that. Shame is not a word that you will find in their dictionary.

[tgw]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

after this is all over, a good purge is in order - they are used to it - and then we should be prepared to welcome a democratic Russia back into civilization. minus maybe some hundred thousand criminals.

 

Russia will need a de-fascisation programme, similar to Germany after WW2

 

I'm thinking again about what I wrote.

 

This looks almost impossible to achieve.

Chances are, Putin will be taken down by his own and then replaced by the next dictator.

 

This is not Germany in WW2, the world is not out to bring down Putin.

 

Without Russian capitulation, there can't be victors' justice.

It will probably be impossible to eliminate Russian fascism for generations, plus they will have been humiliated and will seek revenge ????

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

I'm thinking again about what I wrote.

 

This looks almost impossible to achieve.

Chances are, Putin will be taken down by his own and then replaced by the next dictator.

 

This is not Germany in WW2, the world is not out to bring down Putin.

 

Without Russian capitulation, there can't be victors' justice.

It will probably be impossible to eliminate Russian fascism for generations, plus they will have been humiliated and will seek revenge ????

Yeah I also don't think Russia has a path to recovering from this. The hundreds of thousands of younger / brain drainers / dissident Russians that have gone splitsville may have inadvertently made a permanent move. Russia as we knew it is basically over.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Jingthing

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/6/2022 at 3:48 AM, tgw said:

This is could be a Nazi propaganda text (of the real Nazis I mean), just replace words with others in a historical context and it fits perfectly.

 

Putin is an imperialist fascist dictator war criminal with nukes who started a war of aggression in Europe.

 

Must be stopped.

Your suggestion as to how it can be stopped without loads of dead Europeans is...................................?

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, tgw said:

Russia will need a de-fascisation programme, similar to Germany after WW2

and just which nations are willing to be nuked to bring about the destruction of Russia to the point that such a programme can be carried out? It took many years and the deaths of millions upon millions to bring Germany down.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, tgw said:

strong leader doesn't automatically imply war-mongering butcher.

Churchill

De Gaulle

Roosevelt

Ataturk

Eisenhower

Sadly, IMO we don't have any strong leaders around any more. There's not one current leader I'd willingly follow into war.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and just which nations are willing to be nuked to bring about the destruction of Russia to the point that such a programme can be carried out? It took many years and the deaths of millions upon millions to bring Germany down.

Nobody is willing to be nuked. If Putin even drops a mini nuke which is possible but very unlikely the chances of that sparking an escalation to global nuclear winter is likely. My understanding is that while Putin may be insane enough there are others that have the capability to abort.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sadly, IMO we don't have any strong leaders around any more. There's not one current leader I'd willingly follow into war.

Zelinsky ain't chopped liver.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Nobody is willing to be nuked. If Putin even drops a mini nuke which is possible but very unlikely the chances of that sparking an escalation to global nuclear winter is likely. My understanding is that while Putin may be insane enough there are others that have the capability to abort.

and how many European leaders would be willing to bet on your "understanding"?

Edited April 9, 2022 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Zelinsky ain't chopped liver.

If you mean the Ukrainian president, I've seen him on tv news, and while I know nothing about him, I wouldn't willingly follow him into a brewery if they were giving away free beer.

 

PS IMO it's easy to be a strong man far away from the fighting, so long as other people are dying. Perhaps if he'd been more willing to negotiate, no one would have had to die and cities would not be in ruins.

[rudi49jr]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Perhaps if he'd been more willing to negotiate, no one would have had to die and cities would not be in ruins.

Seriously? So Zelensky is partly to blame? Or maybe Zelensky should have capitulated right away to avoid further bloodshed, like some other posters here suggested? The way I see it, Russia invaded Ukraine without any provocation and is committing one war crime after the other. Ukrainians have every right to fight for their freedom and their very existence. If it were up to Russia, many Ukrainians would end up dead or enslaved, or maybe second-rate citizens at best. 

[tgw]

28 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Your suggestion as to how it can be stopped without loads of dead Europeans is...................................?

there already are a lot of Europeans dead.

 

"must be stopped" is an imperative.

 

the number of dead must be as low as possible of course, but the goal has to be achieved: Putin will be stopped. this will take the necessary number of lives, plus probably many more, but he must be stopped.

 

at the moment, Ukrainians are paying the price, but make no mistake, they are defending the whole of Europe against Putin.