Rouge is what your maiden aunt colored her cheeks with.  Think you mean Rogue as in the Nissan SUV and other miscreants.

 

3 hours ago, mudcat said:

Rouge is what your maiden aunt colored her cheeks with.  Think you mean Rogue as in the Nissan SUV and other miscreants.

 

Or the third opus of Kieślowski's trilogy, 100% on rotten tomatoes.

3 hours ago, mudcat said:

Rouge is what your maiden aunt colored her cheeks with.  Think you mean Rogue as in the Nissan SUV and other miscreants.

Thank goodness BoI didn't require a spelling certificate as a requirement; otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten my LTR visa.   ????

 

Below is an 16 Nov 2022 article from the Australian-Thai Chamber of Commerce blog webpage....lists various ways to stay long term in Thailand ordered from the most familiar to more unconventional options.  The article lists the LTR visa as #3.   #2 is a Non-O Marriage visa and #1 a Non-O Retirement visa.  Of course what each individual sees as best suiting their needs & desires will vary from individual-to-individual.

 

https://www.austchamthailand.com/6-ways-to-stay-in-thailand-for-the-long-term-and-how-to-decide-which-is-best-for-you/#

 

On 12/31/2022 at 3:43 PM, Pib said:

  And also where the guy says buying Thai govt bonds "is a snap"....easy....etc., which is completely wrong as it's hard for the typical foreigner to buy Thai govt bonds.....easy for a Thai citizen but not for a farang.

 

I tend to agree with that, although it is doable.

 

Late last month (December-2022), during a recent new series of Thai government bond offerings, I purchased 2-million THB in Government bonds (10 year term), which I will use to contribute to part of my investment in Thailand (the remainder amount will come from the purchase-price/value of my condo in Thailand) for an LTR.  

 

(For the investment Guru's who totally hate this bond purchase idea and want to use every last penny to earn an extra 5% interest or so above and beyond bond interest ...  let me just say this is NOT a large amount of money for myself, and further, I have no bonds at present in my portfolio, so I thought why not buy some bonds??  The LTR is for a wealthy pensioner , perhaps I will put emphasis on wealthy where one doesn't mind such an investment )

 

I did spend a long time at a Bangkok Bank branch to do this purchase, as they were not used to foreigners trying to buy Thai government bonds. The bank staff consulted with the branch manager, who stated if I had a "yellow book" and "pink Thai ID card",  it was doable ... If I didn't have such, he did not think his branch could do it. ...   I have no idea if that is a real requirement, but it was for that bank branch manager (and please, for the yellow book/pink-ID haters, please don't shoot the messenger).

 

The biggest issue the bank had was to figure out what to put in the computer for my Thai tax number, as that is a required field in the computer.   I have NO Thai income, so typically I don't have to file a Thai tax return. To my knowledge I have no Thai tax number.

 

 My Thai wife was with me, and she noted to the Bank staff, that the Tax-ID for Thai people, is typically also the same # on their Thai ID card.  So why not insert the ID-# from my "pink Thai ID card" into the computer?  The Bangkok Bank staff did that, and to their pleasant surprise my pink Thai ID card number was accepted by the computer.  

 

I also had to have the 2-million baht in my bank account prior to applying for the bond. After a LOT of paperwork and time at the counter, all was done, and it was a matter of waiting to see if I succeeded to buy the bonds.

 

Some days later, after the bond issue date, I received an SMS that I was to report to the Bank re: my application to purchase 2-million baht in bonds.  So I showed up the next day, and the bank confirmed I had successfully purchased 2-million Thai baht in government bonds. BUT they were out of 'bond bank books' and could not print out the proof for a week, so they requested I come back a week later (which I did) at which point they were able to give me the Thai government 'bond bank book' which was my proof of a bond purchase in my name.

 

So its doable - but even the banks struggle doing something they are not used to doing.

@oldcpu

Based on your govt bond purchase and previous 7 Dec post (at bottom) talking condo deed ownership change (i.e., putting the condo in your name only vs your "and" the wife's names) do you still plan to go thru with the deed change in order to qualify for a LTR.....Or, maybe you already have?

 

And when I read your bond post today your previous 7 Dec deed ownership post immediately came to mind.  I thought that oldcpu is kinda like Shelton on the American Big Bang TV show series and where Shelton sometimes goes to talk to a neighbor across the hall and he will just keep knocking on the door until let in.   I see the door as BoI and you as Shelton....just ain't going to give up until BoI opens the door by issuing you a LTR visa.   Keep knocking....I salute you!

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Pib said:

@oldcpu

Based on your govt bond purchase and previous 7 Dec post (at bottom) talking condo deed ownership change (i.e., putting the condo in your name only vs your "and" the wife's names) do you still plan to go thru with the deed change in order to qualify for a LTR.....Or, maybe you already have?

No - after some more investigation I dropped that idea of changing the deed ownership of my condo from 50% (where 1/2 in my name and 1/2 in my wife's name) to 100%.

 

Why?

 

Turns out in doing the transfer, it is considered by the Land Office as being like a sale , and I would need to pay 2% tax on my wife's 50% ownership at an appraised value.  That would be some number over 150,000 THB tax (probably closer to 200,000 THB).  .... Ok ... I confess its not that much, but a quick back of the envelope calculation convinced me it made more financial sense to just buy 2-million Thai government bonds, despite their relatively low return. 

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

And when I read your bond post today your previous 7 Dec deed ownership post immediately came to mind.  I thought that oldcpu is kinda like Shelton on the American Big Bang TV show series and where Shelton sometimes goes to talk to a neighbor across the hall and he will just keep knocking on the door until let in.   I see the door as BoI and you as Shelton....just ain't going to give up until BoI opens the door by issuing you a LTR visa.   Keep knocking....I salute you!

 

lol !  ... I guess .... I haven't watched TV for more than a few decades ... so I am not familiar with the Big Bang TV show.

 

As for my persistence ... honestly ?  I thought the LTR was not a good idea ...

 

..  but I have friends in Canada and in Europe who have Thai spouse, who are considering such.  They kept asking for my opinion, and initially I replied the 1-year extension approach (every year on a Type-O visa retirement or marriage extension) was far FAR superior.

 

So they started debating it with me, and as we started to dig into the details, I came to the conclusion that I possibly misjudged the LTR Visa's merits and benefits.

 

I may not apply thou until February or March thou.   Don't laugh, but my fear is if I apply now, it will get approved possibly as early as mid-February, which might complicate my life.  I want to fly to Canada from 13-to-24-Feb-2023, and the last thing I want at that time is Visa complications.   I read that as soon as the LTR is approved (??) one's current Visa is made void.  .... I don't want to be about to leave for Canada, or in Canada, and find out the extension on my Type-O Visa's permission to stay in Thailand (with re-entry permit) is void, but to get my new Visa I need to somehow get to Bangkok to pickup the LTR.

 

Crazy thinking on my part?  Possibly ... but why stress over this.  After all, this is Thailand and one never knows.

 

Likely I will wait to February and then apply, that way the approval is likely to come sometime in the April to May timeframe when I will be in Thailand, with no chance of complications with my current permission to stay in Thailand.

How do one obtain information , i.e. interest yield / maturity of 

recent new series of Thai government bond offering ,

I want to purchase THB Government bonds 

In Bangkok bank ? Thanks 
 

 

39 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I've read that as soon as the LTR is approved (??) one's current Visa is made void.  

 

Not true.  Your old visa is not cancelled until the LTR visa is issued to your passport which you have 60 days to do after you get notification from BoI your LTR application has been approved...pay the Bt50K...."take the final step to have the LTR visa actually issued."

 

If you don't take action within 60 days of that approval letter then that approval is void....kinda like running a marathon but never taking the final step to cross the finish line.  Your then have to start all over with a new application.

 

Assuming you want the LTR visa inked into your passport at BoI Immigration in Bangkok on the day you have your appt to do such Immigration will first cancel your old visa and then issue/link your LTR visa to your passport....all of this just takes minutes.

 

If using a Thai embassy the cancellation of your old visa would happen in the background as they issue you the LTR visa.

 

1 hour ago, Alotoftravel said:

How do one obtain information , i.e. interest yield / maturity of 

recent new series of Thai government bond offering ,

I want to purchase THB Government bonds 

In Bangkok bank ? Thanks 
 

 

As noted in this thread ... buying Thai government bonds is not easy.  At least it was not easy for me.

 

Initially I investigated to see if I could purchase Thai governments on a secondary market, but I could not find an institute via which I could so such.

 

Then in early December last year my Thai wife and I learned of a new Thai Government bond offering being available soon.   We saw this advertised on the Internet and I received email/notifications from Bangkok Bank.

 

I have accounts with Bangkok Bank and Krungsri Bank and we went to both banks to see if I could participate in the new offering and try to buy bonds there.  My Krungsri bank branch had nothing setup (yet) for a foreigner to buy Thai government bonds in a new issue, but we were advised by our Bangkok bank branch it was possible, if I could prove my residency (specifically via a yellow book) and if I had a pink-Thai-ID card. 

 

Honestly?  I am not convinced that is necessary (as I do NOT think it needed), but in my case, it satisfied the Bank branch manager and I had no further need to research this further to satisfy the yellow-book/pink-ID detractors.  I am confident one of them will research this far better than myself, and show how this can be done without needing such (ie not needing yellow-book/pink-ID) ... so maybe just stay tuned until one of them does so.

 

When talking to the Bangkok Bank staff, we learned that this Bond issue would be handled differently than the past (and I posted on this previous) where instead of the big financial institutes getting 'first dibs' on the bonds, and hence none left for the 'little guy' / small buyer ... We were advised that for the 10-year term bond, priority would be given to the small bond purchaser (where 2-million Thai baht bond purchase is small compared to the big financial institutes that purchase such).  .... We were thou told that the 7-year term was only available for financial institutes ... we did not try to verify if that was correct.

 

Still - I see it was a gamble in saying I wanted to buy 2-million Thai baht of government bonds, as it was entirely possible I would have ended up with only 500,000 THB of Thai government bonds, which would have been problematic to prove I had the appropriate investment in Thailand (when combined with the value of my Thai real estate purchases).  Fortunately, I obtained the amount of bonds that I requested .... likely because interest rates are expected to go up, at which time the face value of the bonds will decrease and only come back to par at maturity - hence less people are interested to buy bonds at present time.

Mrs Zuman and I had our appointment today at the BOI/OSS in Bangkok. We each received our 10 year LTR visa stamp (wealthy pensioner), 5 year permission to stay stamp and 5 year re-entry permit stamp. Total time spent was 2 hours and 20 minutes. We were told there was only one person working at the LTR section in the OSS and that was the reason for the long wait.
 

Below are a few items that may help others going through the process.

 

If possible you want to apply for the LTR visa in your country and receive it from your embassy prior to departure or apply in Thailand and pick it up in Thailand. We applied while in our home country and picked it up in Bangkok. The entry stamp from our initial entry into Thailand and the 30 day extension stamp required additional copies of the passport pages to be sent to the BOI/OSS for each instance. This led to phone calls and considerable delay.

 

As the main LTR visa holder I received requests for additional information (see previous item) via my account on the BOI website and was able to attach the information requested. This feature is not available for dependents. You are not notified of additional information needed and what is needed has to be submitted via email. This led to additional phone calls and delays. 
 

We used our iPads for our initial applications and document submittals with no issues. For opening and printing approval documents the iPad did not work. We had to use the Google Chrome browser to view and print all documents. 
 

Good luck to everyone.

 

Mr Zuman

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

As for my persistence ... honestly ?  I thought the LTR was not a good idea ...

 

..  but I have friends in Canada and in Europe who have Thai spouse, who are considering such.  They kept asking for my opinion, and initially I replied the 1-year extension approach (every year on a Type-O visa retirement or marriage extension) was far FAR superior.

 

So they started debating it with me, and as we started to dig into the details, I came to the conclusion that I possibly misjudged the LTR Visa's merits and benefits.

 

Purely from an "annual fee standpoint" a Non O retirement or marriage extension of stay is better (cheaper) unless you get a multi-entry permit each year to go along with the Non O.  Then a Non O + multi reentry permit costs more over a 10 year period than an LTR visa.   See below Cost/Fee Comparison Chart where a 1 year Non-O extension of stay is compared to a 10 year LTR visa. 

 

Not included in the cost comparison is agent fees for those also paying an agent fee to assist them each year to renew their extension....agent fees that can cost far more than the visa govt fees.  Then those annual agent fees over 10 years can make an LTR visa look even better.  Also not included in the chart is LTR medical coverage requirement if you don't have an acceptable foreign/Thai insurance policy, Thai social security, or can self-insure.  The chart is just comparing the core fees.

 

   

 

But of course with an one year extension you have the "annual" approval process to prove you still meet visa requirements.   That "every year" process combined with the concern over a change in requirements is what many consider a pain in the rear accompanied by stress that they would prefer to avoid.  And it seems one year flies by so fast!   How much is it worth to avoid that pain and stress "each" year.....what's it's worth over 10 years.  With a 10 year LTR visa a person only has the mid point/5 year review process since the LTR visa is really a 5+5 visa.

 

41 minutes ago, Pib said:

Purely from an "annual fee standpoint" a Non O retirement or marriage extension of stay is better (cheaper) unless you get a multi-entry permit each year to go along with the Non O.  Then a Non O + multi reentry permit costs more over a 10 year period than an LTR visa.   See below Cost/Fee Comparison Chart where a 1 year Non-O extension of stay is compared to a 10 year LTR visa. 

 

Not included in the cost comparison is agent fees for those also paying an agent fee to assist them each year to renew their extension....agent fees that can cost far more than the visa govt fees.  Then those annual agent fees over 10 years can make an LTR visa look even better.  Also not included in the chart is LTR medical coverage requirement if you don't have an acceptable foreign/Thai insurance policy, Thai social security, or can self-insure.  The chart is just comparing the core fees.

 

   

 

But of course with an one year extension you have the "annual" approval process to prove you still meet visa requirements.   That "every year" process combined with the concern over a change in requirements is what many consider a pain in the rear accompanied by stress that they would prefer to avoid.  And it seems one year flies by so fast!   How much is it worth to avoid that pain and stress "each" year.....what's it's worth over 10 years.  With a 10 year LTR visa a person only has the mid point/5 year review process since the LTR visa is really a 5+5 visa.

 

The above post by @Pibis exactly why I jumped at it when they went live with the LTR program. In the early days the cost was supposed to be 100k Thb, but they halved it to draw in more folks and the cost makes it a great deal for those that can qualify.  Wishing everyone who is thinking of applying the best of luck.

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Not included in the cost comparison is agent fees for those also paying an agent fee to assist them each year to renew their extension....agent fees that can cost far more than the visa govt fees.  Then those annual agent fees over 10 years can make an LTR visa look even better. 

Another advantage of the LTR-WP visa is that assuming you have the income you have no requirement for a security deposit in a Thai bank or the pain and expense of monthly money transfers like with a Non-O.  And those who use agents to circumvent this will pay even higher agent fees

1 hour ago, Pib said:

How much is it worth to avoid that pain and stress "each" year.....what's it's worth over 10 years. 

Not to mention the time and cost to get back and forth to Chaeng Watthana at least once a year for those of us living in Bangkok, and the pages and pages of annual stamps gradually filling up your passport... 

 

But yes, it's really the mental stress that I'm most glad to get rid of - no more worrying about my bank balance, or 90 day report schedules, or remembering to get a reentry permit. And for those among us who travel regularly, the LTR also has airport Fast Track access. To me, it was a no-brainer, but of course everyone's situation is different, so not everyone will reach the same conclusion. 

 

Quick update:

Went to thai embassy Sydney to do my visa today.

Steps:

1) get letter from BOI and print out

2) Fill in this form (https://image.mfa.go.th/mfa/0/mEsUwBHzx5/เอกสาร/Visa_application_form_as_of_4_April_2022.pdf) and print out

3) Go to thai embassy (no booking required for LTR) with BOI Form, visa form (No input for LTR but leave blank) and passport.

4) Go to information, tell them LTR and get ticket to wait in line

4) Give paper to agent and pay fee ($3045 INC Fees)

5) Get slip to pick up in under a week

6) Go to thailand

6 minutes ago, lextsy said:

Quick update:

Went to thai embassy Sydney to do my visa today.

Steps:

1) get letter from BOI and print out

2) Fill in this form (https://image.mfa.go.th/mfa/0/mEsUwBHzx5/เอกสาร/Visa_application_form_as_of_4_April_2022.pdf) and print out

3) Go to thai embassy (no booking required for LTR) with BOI Form, visa form (No input for LTR but leave blank) and passport.

4) Go to information, tell them LTR and get ticket to wait in line

4) Give paper to agent and pay fee ($3045 INC Fees)

5) Get slip to pick up in under a week

6) Go to thailand

A little more than 50k THB it appears for out of the country attainment. Wonder why when your just dealing with a consulate or embassy which is linked to Thailand.

For myself, the benefits of a LTR visa far outweighed the modest costs.

 

Known Costs: Submit Agency Pension letter, Social Security Benefit Verification, and Brokerage IRA statement.

                        Pay one-time 50,000 Thai Baht fee.

                       Two trips to Bangkok (initial and at 5-years)

                        Sign, date, and submit TM95 annual address report (assume they get yearly addresses by mail set up)

                        As I am 74-years old possibility for an agent to do annual notifications and/or extension at five-years.

                         

Benefits:  No more 100 km round trip to the immigration office to extend my Non-IMM O stay with all that entailed.

                 No more keeping track of 90-day reports and wondering if the application is working today.

                 No more running to the local immigration office for a re-entry permits or hoping the airport office is open.

                 Cash out the 800,000 Thai Baht Bangkok Bank account term account and buy a new car.

                 Adjust my health insurance to protect my assets rather than any future immigration requirements.

 

 

I am assuming that use of an agent for those with 'simple' cases will be at a reasonable cost for reporting and extensions.

 

 

                                 

56 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

A little more than 50k THB it appears for out of the country attainment. Wonder why when your just dealing with a consulate or embassy which is linked to Thailand.

Yea, $3045 AUD works out to about Bt70K THB.   But I expect Thai embassies/consulate have to cover a major part of cost of operations in foreign countries based on fees vs the Thai govt covering all costs.  And cost of operations/living in each country can vary a lot. 

 

Like U.S. Embassies/Consulates around the world "by U.S. law" must cover a major portion of certain services like many services to U.S. citizens and foreigners based on fees and not funding direct from the U.S. govt.   Like charging $50 USD for each document you need notarized.....you are basically helping to pay for that manpower position, salary of that person, benefits, housing, etc.....and all of that does get expensive.   

 

I expect the Thai govt follows a similar policy in ensuring people needing service at a Thai embassy/consulate foot a lot of the bill to keep that embassy/consulate running for various services.

 

 

I did consider doing the visa in thailand for 50k baht but when my 50kg on luggage i usually hop into a car for 1000b to my condo in pattaya i would need to get a taxi to a hotel for a night or 2, a night out in cowboy / nana and then a taxi down to pattaya would end up costing me 10k. Happy to seal the deal and get my visa ASAP.

I can also see when the AUD Drops, the value becomes better to do it at home.

10 minutes ago, Pib said:

Yea, $3045 AUD works out to about Bt70K THB.   But I expect Thai embassies/consulate have to cover a major part of cost of operations in foreign countries based on fees vs the Thai govt covering all costs.  And cost of operations/living in each country can vary a lot. 

 

Like U.S. Embassies/Consulates around the world "by U.S. law" must cover a major portion of certain services like many services to U.S. citizens and foreigners based on fees and not funding direct from the U.S. govt.   Like charging $50 USD for each document you need notarized.....you are basically helping to pay for that manpower position, salary of that person, benefits, housing, etc.....and all of that does get expensive.   

 

I expect the Thai govt follows a similar policy in ensuring people needing service at a Thai embassy/consulate foot a lot of the bill to keep that embassy/consulate running for various services.

 

 

Makes sense. When I visited the US this past February I had to have documents notarized and it was onoyb$25 in country while here, before I left it was $50 per document as you said. I forgot that the embassies and consulates need to make money in order to keep operating. It's no wonder they stopped some services.

 

I see the LTR issue fee for the Thai Embassy in London is 1,500 pounds/approx Bt60K. (1st snapshot below)

And the LTR issue fee for the Thai Consulate in New York City is 1,600 USD/approx Bt54K. (2nd snapshot)

And per lextsy's post posts above the Thai Consulate in Sydney is 3045 AUD/approx Bt70K.

 

Yeap, governments all too often use fees to fund a major part of embassy/consulate operations & services in other countries....and those fees can vary form country-to-country vs being a standard fee.

 

Thai Embassy in London LTR Fee

 

 

Thai Embassy at New York City LTR Fee

 

 

40 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

I see the LTR issue fee for the Thai Embassy in London is 1,500 pounds/approx Bt60K. (1st snapshot below)

And the LTR issue fee for the Thai Consulate in New York City is 1,600 USD/approx Bt54K. (2nd snapshot)

And per lextsy's post posts above the Thai Consulate in Sydney is 3045 AUD/approx Bt70K.

 

Yeap, governments all too often use fees to fund a major part of embassy/consulate operations & services in other countries....and those fees can vary form country-to-country vs being a standard fee.

 

Thai Embassy in London LTR Fee

 

 

Thai Embassy at New York City LTR Fee

 

 

For consistency and planning, instead of having the local currency price change with currency fluctuations, I think they just set the price once in the local currency. 

 

As an example, here's the USD price translated into Thai baht on the day the program started, the day I paid for my LTR e-visa, and today:

 

 

Different currencies will have moved against the Thai baht at different rates since the program opened.

 

EDIT: Its actually $3000 aud with  1.5% credit surcharge, but you can opt to pay from your account with no fee

Approved!  For the second time...  My first application submitted early September was approved, but I got a new Passport and was unable to upload my new Passport, and BOI claimed there were technical problems and couldn't revise my approval letter with my new Passport number.  I was told to submit a new application with my new Passport information.   My second application was submitted Nov 8 and finally (after several phone calls to BOI) approved yesterday Jan 5.  Good luck to everyone still trying to get their LTR.

52 minutes ago, pepper402 said:

Approved!  For the second time...  My first application submitted early September was approved, but I got a new Passport and was unable to upload my new Passport, and BOI claimed there were technical problems and couldn't revise my approval letter with my new Passport number.  I was told to submit a new application with my new Passport information.   My second application was submitted Nov 8 and finally (after several phone calls to BOI) approved yesterday Jan 5.  Good luck to everyone still trying to get their LTR.

Excellent news. 

Still beaming from my recent LTR approval, I created an account with these guys:   https://www.thaievisa.go.th/  I had to upload Passport, drivers license and other information and proceeded to payment ($1,600).  I failed...   I tried several credit cards - all of them declined.  I talked to the fraud department at Fidelity Visa who told me that they could not override/approve this purchase because the recipient was a high risk / high fraud user.  Any suggestions on how I can pay for my e-visa?  Hopefully the website is legit and I didn't just give a fraudster all of my information.

1 hour ago, pepper402 said:

Still beaming from my recent LTR approval, I created an account with these guys:   https://www.thaievisa.go.th/  I had to upload Passport, drivers license and other information and proceeded to payment ($1,600).  I failed...   I tried several credit cards - all of them declined.  I talked to the fraud department at Fidelity Visa who told me that they could not override/approve this purchase because the recipient was a high risk / high fraud user.  Any suggestions on how I can pay for my e-visa?  Hopefully the website is legit and I didn't just give a fraudster all of my information.

Do you happen to have a debit card you could try? The e-visa payment system "World Pay" administered by KBANK is notoriously awful.  I had similar difficulty with it trying to pay for NonB e-visas in the past, and the payment problems continued when I tried to pay for the LTR e-visa.  Multiple credit cards failed due to "suspected fraud". Even a KBANK debit card failed, and you'd think KBANK would accept their own payment system. The only thing that finally would work was a USD debit card.

 

If you don't use debit cards, my best suggestion is to try contacting the LTR e-visa issuer (is it a consulate or other?) and report the problems in making payment.  I found NY consulate in the US was very helpful when communicating by FB message.   Then try calling BoI directly.

 

Sorry I don't have any better ideas.  Feel the joy in the approval, and the pain in the payment system.

 

 

This is just a curiosity question at this time, but for you LTR holders whose online acct shows Complete (like in the 1st snapshot below) because you have the LTR inked into your passport "is there any menu/selection in your online acct to "submit another application?"  Now if I click the LTR menu I get the popup message shown in the 2nd snapshot which says "Your LTR Application Is In Process."   Maybe I get this popup because I didn't request a Work Permit.  

 

Like say it was almost 5 years later and it was time for the LTR mid-point/5 year renewal process and assuming another application (maybe a full application, maybe a mini application if BoI decides such) how could a person start another application from within there current online acct?  I just don't see any place to do it.