Trump under investigation for potential violations of Espionage Act

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

Best case, Trump was just so arrogant he thought he was able to ignore his own laws.

Middle of the road, there is information in the purloined documents he would prefer no-one else sees.

Worst case, the documents had value, and he was going to sell them. Take your pick.

 

The pro-Trumpers on this thread all refuse to say if they have kicked in $45. If one actually did, the laugh emojis would stretch from here to the moon.

Not only ignore but obstruct. He declared via one of his lawyers there were no classified documents anymore, hence the mess now.

[Bkk Brian]

Any claim by Trump that he declassified the documents is irrelevant.

 

Files Seized From Trump Are Part of Espionage Act Inquiry

 

The results of the search showed that material designated as closely guarded national secrets was being held at an unsecured resort club, Mar-a-Lago, owned and occupied by a former president who has long shown a disdain for careful handling of classified information.

 

even if Mr. Trump declassified the information before he left office, none of the three potential crimes cited by the department in seeking the warrant depend on whether a mishandled document has been deemed classified.

 

The warrant said the agents would be searching for material as they investigated potential violations of the Espionage Act, which outlaws the unauthorized retention of defense-related information that could harm the United States or aid a foreign adversary — a standard that was written by Congress before the creation of the modern classification system.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/12/us/trump-espionage-act-laws-fbi.html

No paywall: https://web.archive.org/web/20220814003119/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/12/us/trump-espionage-act-laws-fbi.html

[Bkk Brian]

New info coming out daily and its not looking good for Trump, more lies being revealed.

 

Trump Lawyer Told Justice Dept. That Classified Material Had Been Returned

 

The lawyer signed a statement in June that all documents marked as classified and held in boxes in storage at Mar-a-Lago had been given back. The search at the former president’s home on Monday turned up more.

 

The written declaration was made after a visit on June 3 to Mar-a-Lago by Jay I. Bratt, the top counterintelligence official in the Justice Department’s national security division.

 

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/13/us/politics/trump-classified-material-fbi.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20220814002950/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/13/us/politics/trump-classified-material-fbi.html

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Not only ignore but obstruct. He declared via one of his lawyers there were no classified documents anymore, hence the mess now.

Which comes back to the question of why he was so keen to hang on to them.

It's a mess of his own making, as Garland probably would not have prosecuted under the Espionage Act if Trump had simply given them back. Now, the DOJ has ample ammunition.

Trump has previous form in obstructing access to his tax records, it's not hard to understand why.

[Eric Loh]

29 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Which comes back to the question of why he was so keen to hang on to them.

It's a mess of his own making, as Garland probably would not have prosecuted under the Espionage Act if Trump had simply given them back. Now, the DOJ has ample ammunition.

Trump has previous form in obstructing access to his tax records, it's not hard to understand why.

The irony or perhaps sweet karma is that Trump signed the federal law in 2018 for violation in removing and retaining classified information without authorization. He signed that law to attack Hillary. That is punishable with a 5 years imprisonment. Of course this is just a small part of the laws he broke and we can expect more jail time hopefully. 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

An American friend. I fear you've missed the irony in my post. My fault.

 

You should look up the meaning of irony.

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

The irony or perhaps sweet karma is that Trump signed the federal law in 2018 for violation in removing and retaining classified information without authorization. He signed that law to attack Hillary. That is punishable with a 5 years imprisonment. Of course this is just a small part of the laws he broke and we can expect more jail time hopefully. 

When/if it gets to a courtroom, IMO Trump is going to take the Fifth. His rants on social media, which so impress his followers, will cut no ice with a judge. Contempt of court is a real possibility.

 

When he was on Twitter, I occasionally read his posts. What amazed me was their poor standard of literacy. Perhaps that's why he has so much appeal for the mouth breathers and knuckle draggers.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Berkshire said:

You're grasping at straws.  There's a whole process related to declassification and there's no evidence that Trump did this.

 

But let's say you're right, that a President has the ability to essentially declassify anything and everything telepathically.  If he says it's declassified, it's declassified. 

 

But this authority ends when he leaves office.  So when Biden takes office, he can telepathically reclassify everything that Trump just declassified.  So these documents are in fact, classified.  The President says so.  Game over. 

But, according to the article linked to this applies only to the cases where the President discloses something and says it's declassified. It has nothing to do with whether the President can just declare en masse that documents are classified. So, sure, if he cites the info verbally, he can declare it's declassified. Not the same thing as just declaring unspecified documents are declassified.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

New info coming out daily and its not looking good for Trump, more lies being revealed.

 

Trump Lawyer Told Justice Dept. That Classified Material Had Been Returned

 

The lawyer signed a statement in June that all documents marked as classified and held in boxes in storage at Mar-a-Lago had been given back. The search at the former president’s home on Monday turned up more.

 

The written declaration was made after a visit on June 3 to Mar-a-Lago by Jay I. Bratt, the top counterintelligence official in the Justice Department’s national security division.

 

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/13/us/politics/trump-classified-material-fbi.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20220814002950/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/13/us/politics/trump-classified-material-fbi.html

I assume that lawyer is in deep.....uh, stuff right now.

 

Of course we've know for some time that good lawyers don't want to work for Trump.

[heybruce]

14 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

He's already made a statement on Friday.

Trump himself said on his Truth Social platform Friday, "It was all declassified."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-allies-say-declassified-mar-lago-documents-experts-say-unclear-w-rcna42311

Pity that he didn't go to the trouble of documenting this action or telling anyone while he was still President.

 

However even if that nonsense holds up, it does not make taking the documents legal, and it certainly doesn't explain what he was doing with them.

[heybruce]

14 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

The MSM sure can sound convincing.  Especially if you're prone to believe everything they write is gospel.  Not all of us suck it up without questioning and willingly ignore so many unaddressed missing pieces.

No thanks.  I'll wait for the real story.  Not the goal sought one-sided version.  Most on the left with extreme bias towards Trump have already made up their minds as to the "truth."

I'm sure this story will be revisited as more facts come out.

You'll wait for the real story?  Really?  Do you mean the Breitbart version, or will you hold out for a Qanon take on it?

[heybruce]

15 hours ago, connda said:

I'm not a Trump supporter.  I don't like him.
But this move is the move of a tin-pot, banana-republic.  The justice department has been weaponize against certain classes of Americans.  I don't believe this will get better.   And it bodes not well. 

No, making ex-Presidents above the law is the move of a "tin-pot, banana-republic".

[heybruce]

16 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Do you think that there's any connection at all between Donald being investigated and him possibly running for POTUS in 2024 or is just a coincidence ?

One and a half years after the last election, two and a half years before the next Presidential election, how is this suspicious?

 

Should they have let Trump keep these documents until after the 2024 election?  What if there were the possibility of him or one of his kids running in 2028; should they have held off until after then?

 

Is everyone who might run for President exempt from criminal investigations, or only Trump?

[heybruce]

16 hours ago, michael87 said:

After the smoke clears, maybe someone at NARA or the transition office handling, managing the doc transfers, actually packing the boxes with docs, photos, etc may get a process charge out of this "trump has nuclear docs" debacle. Trump will win AGAIN, the left wing deep state has NOTHING, ie., J6, Raffensperger/Fulton Co. g-jury. 

Big distraction to the real issue plaguing the country: the daily and EPIC failures of the Biden administration AND certainly due to the left's inherent and crippling, mind altering fear of all things MAGA and Trump, soon to be presidential candidate and indubitably the 47th POTUS.

 

I should mention that AG Garland will/should be impeached and that's a likely scenario after a GOP mid-term win. 

 

Your new, it's obvious you're still learning how to troll.

[heybruce]

16 hours ago, Wrwest said:

I think all need to recognize that “The Donald” should have the boom lowered and be called to account without question but … no one should miss the fact that he gained support because he gave voice to the pent up justified frustration/anger within the American working class. Unless/until the underlying cause of that frustration/anger is addressed, the madness continues. I escaped to live a comfortable working middle class retirement in a lower cost country. How many of my “Baby Boomer” generation are in or face a retirement under the reality of economic stress. They join my childrens’ generation who are working middle class and economically stressed. Lose belief in the fairness of a system and you have lost the USA.

"justified frustration/anger within the American working class."

 

May be off-topic, but I am genuinely curious as to what this justified frustration/anger is and how anyone imagined Trump could or would make it better.

 

 

[heybruce]

16 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Why hasn't Trump already been arrested? If he had in his procession all the top secret papers with nuclear info and such why isn't he behind bars already? Surely the FBI and others have had enough time to take inventory of docs retrieved  from Trump's pad. We can't let such a criminal roam free who's a menace. 

I'm no expert in the criminal justice system, but I'm pretty sure the order of events is:

 

First build a case that will hold up in court.

 

Then arrest the person being charged.

 

Trump is unlikely to run, it would confirm his guilt (though not to his cult followers).  So the FBI and Justice Department can continue to move in a careful and thorough manner.

[heybruce]

16 hours ago, vandeventer said:

2000 mules movie have a look at it.

Do you think that a propaganda movie is more credible than the Republican governors and election officials who called the election fair, the judges who rejected the election challenges, the audits and recounts that confirmed the election results, and Trump's own head of Homeland Security, who called the election the most secure in American history? 

 

If the evidence in that silly movie was so credible, why didn't any of Trump's election challenges use it in court?

 

 

[heybruce]

19 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

I highlighted the important part of your post.  Why is there no mention of the fact that Trump was fully cooperating with the National Archives and therefore why a raid was necessary?  Any takers on answering that question?

Fully cooperated?  Really?

 

Do you have a source other than the Trump family for that information?

[heybruce]

20 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

What do you have in the form of evidence or proof?  Short answer:  Nothing.

He had insecurely stored highly classified documents he had no right to have.  That is a crime and the documents are proof of the crime.

[heybruce]

20 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

The question isn't whether or not a search warrant requires a predicate but since there is none given anywhere or by anyone then I'm correct in saying that the search warrant sheds no light on the reason for the raid.  Knowing what they were looking for and giving a useless inventory of items taken doesn't indicate why they were looking for whatever they were looking for.  All reasons for the raid here and elsewhere are nothing more than speculation.

Caution--smoke and diversions ahead!

 

The reasons for the raid--Trump's removal of documents he had no right to, attempts to retrieve the documents, negotiations and requests regarding missing documents--has been widely reported.  That is the predicate.

[Tropposurfer]

On 8/13/2022 at 12:38 PM, Bkk Brian said:

I bet the "President of France" would also like to know why Trump had information on him in a document at his private residence.

He might have a secret crush on Monsieur Macron and want to 'grab him on the ....' hahahaha ???? 

[Excel]

1 minute ago, Tropposurfer said:

He might have a secret crush on Monsieur Macron and want to 'grab him on the ....' hahahaha ???? 

Maybe they both share a liking for water sports ?

[stevenl]

9 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Fully cooperated?  Really?

 

Do you have a source other than the Trump family for that information?

 

6 minutes ago, heybruce said:

He had insecurely stored highly classified documents he had no right to have.  That is a crime and the documents are proof of the crime.

Yes, he was fully cooperating, that's why his lawyer signed a statement there were no more classified documents in his possession.

Lol 

[mikeymike100]

10 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Innocent of what? Innocent is not an adjective that comes to mind when discussing Trump. 

 

I see, so like many others on this Forum , you seem to have your mind made up, that he is guilty, of what?

So you don't believe in Due Process?

 

[Walker88]

2 hours ago, Walker88 said:

45 seems to think---perhaps that's hope---that ALL the American people plus the courts are as willfully ignorant and naive as his cult members.

 

His latest patently silly defense---besides being an outright lie---makes zero sense except to the pathologically brain addled Drooling Goober demographic.

 

In essence, he is trying to claim he took work home at night to prepare for the next day and had a standing order to declassify everything he took outside of the Oval Office.

 

BS.

 

1) There is no record of this 'standing order'

2) If he had unilaterally declassified everything:

 

2a) There would be a paper trail and all docs would have had TS, TS/SCI, SAP, etc. heading removed and a stamp saying DECLASSIFIED would be on each page, and stacks of memos would all have the signature of the White House counsel plus most would be initialed by various agency heads such as DCI, DNI, DirFBI, DirNSA, etc.

 

2b) All of those now declassified docs could then be posted in the NYTs or handed out at Union Station in DC, since they were no longer classified. This would include things like CIA asset names, covert action operations, data on russian weapons system, the political intentions of guys like putin and xi, the whereabouts of terrorists like then-alive Ayman al-Zawahiri, new US Mil weapons systems under development

 

I can see a typical breakfast chat in the US..."Hey, honey, did you know the CIA has listening devices in putin's bedroom? Those guys are good ! Hope nobody tells little vladdy !"

 

What great reading that would have been !  For the FSB/SVR/GRU.

 

In any event, his statement---issued through Fox---is simply a lie. Not even a bald faced lie...it is a lie even a child would not believe. The flailing, bloated, repulsive, anti-American dollop of garbage is trying to save spending his remaining useless years above ground out of Leavenworth.

 

Sorry, fat boy. It's Leavenworth, then worm food.

It took 5 days for 45's "Brain Trust" (sic) to come up with that ludicrous excuse? That is the best they can do?

 

One would have to have the IQ of a turnip to believe it, though I guess that means around 80% of his cult is on board.

[Bkk Brian]

14 minutes ago, Tropposurfer said:

He might have a secret crush on Monsieur Macron and want to 'grab him on the ....' hahahaha ???? 

Before visits, leaders get in-depth/confidential assessments on foreign leaders from the intel community. Those reports can be “juicy” & need to be kept very “close hold.”

 

But maybe it was a touch of jealousy   .....lol 

 

source

 

 

 

[owl sees all]

The Dems could have shot themselves in the foot with all this smokescreening.

 

Trump out - Ron DeSantis in. 65% approval rating. More election shenanigans on the way.

 

[ThailandRyan]

17 minutes ago, mikeymike100 said:

 

I see, so like many others on this Forum , you seem to have your mind made up, that he is guilty, of what?

So you don't believe in Due Process?

 

The case is being built and will be iron clad when he is arrested and then charged. Not guilty as of yet but damning evidence of guilt is being obtained daily. Or do you Trump defenders think it's all politics.....

[placeholder]

19 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

It took 5 days for 45's "Brain Trust" (sic) to come up with that ludicrous excuse? That is the best they can do?

 

One would have to have the IQ of a turnip to believe it, though I guess that means around 80% of his cult is on board.

It would be interesting to see if his lawyers had previously invoked the "standing order" defense. If not, why not? 

[Eric Loh]

11 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

The Dems could have shot themselves in the foot with all this smokescreening.

 

Trump out - Ron DeSantis in. 65% approval rating. More election shenanigans on the way.

 

Nothing to do with the Dems. Why court controversy while they are celebrating their big win.

 

DeSantis approval rating in Florida on top but nationwide Trump still much ahead. That’s the GOP dilemma going into the mid term.