11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given that removing EU tyranny and freeing the British people from the shackles of faceless bureaucrats is the positive of Brexit, it's entirely relevant to the discussion.

It will take time to be "better off" so one should always be patient. As the saying goes "Rome wasn't built in a day"

 

Do you actually think that everything had to be "sunlit uplands" from day one? LOL.

 

Same old, same old empty meaningless rhetoric devoid of any factual content.

 

Mods, There really is an urgent need for a 'Sigh' button.

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Ray, You seem to be getting him and me mixed up again, it was me who posted the quoted bit above  ,it was me, not him 

No confusion, Mac. @Thaibeachlovers was supporting you, so the question could be posed to either of you.

 

Answer no longer necessary as we covered the topic in a previous exchange.

28 minutes ago, RayC said:

I'm not asking you to keep writing the same thing over and over again; in fact, I'd prefer it if you didn't. 

 

What I would like you to produce is something that states something along the lines of (example): "It is estimated that, to date, Covid has cost the UK economy £150bn; the war in Ukraine, £125bn and Brexit £50bn" (Source: The Daily Fact).

 

Oh I see .

I thought that it was common knowledge and everyone knew ;

Brexit cost : 33 Billion 

Covid cost : 400 Billion

Ukraine cost  : 90 Billion

Google cost : Free 

 

 

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-cost-uk-gdp-economy-failure-b2246610.html

 

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9309/

 

https://www.cityam.com/russia-ukraine-war-to-deliver-90bn-blow-to-uk-economy/

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Immigration has added to the UK population every year since 1977.

 

Would you expect house building to increase?

Well house building has not increased, I’ve given my thoughts on why not above.

 

In the chart (net dwellings) below we can see an improvement after your posted cut-off at 2013.

 

Pre 2008 (GFC) there was catch-up happening too but after that there were a few years of limited investment due to the GFC. Net immigration after 1997 rose so quickly that good planning and effective catch-up was impossible. In any event, the whole building process slowed as building permissions become more limited and longer to obtain because suitable available sites decreased in number.  

 

The tail-off at the right is due  to the recent pandemic.

 

13 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Same old, same old empty meaningless rhetoric devoid of any factual content.

 

Mods, There really is an urgent need for a 'Sigh' button.

You mean a sigh button for the depressed <deleted> whom , it would seem , like to condemn the new found freedom , won from Brexit vote . Gone are the masses of foreign workers / benefit claimers , enabling the true Brit to be employed once more . The UK can retain its identity and culture , unlike many E.U. countries that live with a diluted traditional way of life . Of course Brexit has had an impact on the UK economy which was expected by realists but there will be an improvement .

Xenophobia or racism may have effected the Brexit vote but for the majority of voters it was all about having back the control of our country and having consideration for UK indigenous workers to be employed at the UK market rates as opposed to cheap , undercutting and sometimes unqualified foreign labour that were often a sub-contractor company made up of 100% of a certain foreign country labour . 

 How the Brit <deleted> on this topic continue to criticise , condemn and show disloyalty to their country is to say the least disappointing .  So I say again the UK is not suffering more than other countries . The downturn has come from the covid pandemic , the Ukraine war and Brexit .   All of them are solvable .   

3 hours ago, RayC said:

Racism is an incorrect word. Xenophobia is more accurate. 

 

If you want some evidence that some Brexiters you need look no further than this thread (go back +/-20 pages, work your way forward and I think that you find examples)

 

".. losing an argument.." ???? Were all the jokes in your box of Christmas crackers that good?

More of this go back 20 pages nonsense.  

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Oh I see .

I thought that it was common knowledge and everyone knew ;

Brexit cost : 33 Billion 

Covid cost : 400 Billion

Ukraine cost  : 90 Billion

Google cost : Free 

 

 

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-cost-uk-gdp-economy-failure-b2246610.html

 

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9309/

 

https://www.cityam.com/russia-ukraine-war-to-deliver-90bn-blow-to-uk-economy/

From the CER report cited in the Independent, the 33 billion figure is not cumulative (unlike your Covid figure), 

 

From what I understand, in it also in constant 2009 prices.

 

https://www.cer.eu/insights/cost-brexit-june-2022

30 minutes ago, nauseus said:

In the chart (net dwellings) below we can see an improvement after your posted cut-off at 2013.

 

Pre 2008 (GFC) there was catch-up happening too but after that there were a few years of limited investment due to the GFC. Net immigration after 1997 rose so quickly that good planning and effective catch-up was impossible. In any event, the whole building process slowed as building permissions become more limited and longer to obtain because suitable available sites decreased in number.  

 

The tail-off at the right is due  to the recent pandemic.

 

The graph I posted indicates four decades of declining house building.

 

A period that aligns with the same four decades of rampant House price inflation 

 

Four decades of public policy failing to build the houses the nation needs while propping up house price inflation.

 

But along you come to blame it on immigration.

15 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The graph I posted indicates four decades of declining house building.

 

A period that aligns with the same four decades of rampant House price inflation 

 

Four decades of public policy failing to build the houses the nation needs while propping up house price inflation.

 

But along you come to blame it on immigration.

Playing the immigration card…

18 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Oh I see .

I thought that it was common knowledge and everyone knew ;

Brexit cost : 33 Billion 

Covid cost : 400 Billion

Ukraine cost  : 90 Billion

Google cost : Free 

 

 

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-cost-uk-gdp-economy-failure-b2246610.html

 

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9309/

 

https://www.cityam.com/russia-ukraine-war-to-deliver-90bn-blow-to-uk-economy/

Why would you assume that and why was it so difficult to get you to post this information in the first place? Anyway ...

 

The figure for Brexit is estimated by the OBR @ £100bn PER YEAR, based on a reduction in GDP of 4%/year.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/e39d0315-fd5b-47c8-8560-04bb786f2c13

 

(The Springford report - which 'The Independent' refers to - estimates a contraction of 5.5%/year in GDP. The cost - using Springford's calculations - would be higher than £100bn/year. Those "silly billys" at 'The Independent' got their arithmetic wrong).

 

The Cebr report does indeed estimate the cost of the Ukraine war to the UK @£90bn.  This is the TOTAL estimated figure to end 2023.

 

https://cebr.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Cost-of-Russian-invasion-of-Ukraine-for-the-UK-economy.pdf

 

The parliamentary report estimates the cost of Covid measures @ £310bn - £410bn. Given that Covid is, hopefully, behind us these costs should not increase significantly in the future.

 

So what have we?

 

Covid total cost £410bn (and stabilising)

Brexit £100bn (and rising)

Ukraine £90bn (£45bn to date and hopefully diminishing)

 

No Remainer, to my knowledge, has attempted to downplay the effects of Covid and/or the war in Ukraine. However, you have continually refused to acknowledge the significant detrimental economic effect of Brexit stating that Covid (correct) and Ukraine (incorrect) were more significant.

 

Are you ready to change your mind and admit you were wrong?

49 minutes ago, superal said:

You mean a sigh button for the depressed <deleted> whom , it would seem , like to condemn the new found freedom , won from Brexit vote . Gone are the masses of foreign workers / benefit claimers , enabling the true Brit to be employed once more . The UK can retain its identity and culture , unlike many E.U. countries that live with a diluted traditional way of life . Of course Brexit has had an impact on the UK economy which was expected by realists but there will be an improvement .

Xenophobia or racism may have effected the Brexit vote but for the majority of voters it was all about having back the control of our country and having consideration for UK indigenous workers to be employed at the UK market rates as opposed to cheap , undercutting and sometimes unqualified foreign labour that were often a sub-contractor company made up of 100% of a certain foreign country labour . 

 How the Brit <deleted> on this topic continue to criticise , condemn and show disloyalty to their country is to say the least disappointing .  So I say again the UK is not suffering more than other countries . The downturn has come from the covid pandemic , the Ukraine war and Brexit .   All of them are solvable .   

Thank you for adding weight to my argument for a 'Sigh' button to be introduced.

52 minutes ago, nauseus said:

More of this go back 20 pages nonsense.  

The truth is often inconvenient, Nauseus, especially it appears for Brexiters.

8 minutes ago, RayC said:

So what have we?

 

Covid total cost £410bn (and stabilising)

Brexit £100bn (and rising)

Ukraine £90bn (£45bn to date and hopefully diminishing)

So, bearing in mind no one can see into the future, the arguement that Brexit is/was/has been more damaging than Covid and the war in Ukraine is wrong.

 

It's taken 89 pages of denial for you to finally see that

 

Better late than never.

5 minutes ago, puchooay said:

So, bearing in mind no one can see into the future, the arguement that Brexit is/was/has been more damaging than Covid and the war in Ukraine is wrong.

 

It's taken 89 pages of denial for you to finally see that

 

Better late than never.

So given that we can't see into the future, let's just lie back and do nothing!?

 

I have never stated that Brexit was more damaging than Covid. On the basis of the figures which I quoted, Brexit has had a more significant economic effect on the UK's economy than the war in Ukraine.

 

Might be an idea to get your facts straight before posting.

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

As I said, your question doesn't even deserve any effort. Many similar links, 

Just another attempt to make things personal. You gave the information. If there something there to rebut, that's what he should do. 

35 minutes ago, puchooay said:

So, bearing in mind no one can see into the future, the arguement that Brexit is/was/has been more damaging than Covid and the war in Ukraine is wrong.

 

It's taken 89 pages of denial for you to finally see that

 

Better late than never.

Can you point out anywhere in those 89 pages where anyone has claimed Brexit has been more damaging than COVID and the war in Ukraine?

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No need to go to those extremes , it is just part of normal discussion , if you don't understand what another person says , then you ask and they explain or clarify .

   That is how normal people converse  , you may be suffering from playing too much link tennis , when you just posts links to other people and they post links back . 

It took several engagements for you to disgorge that information. Why the wait?

6 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Spain not doing so well either!

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/spains-november-retail-sales-fall-06-year-2022-12-29/

 

I keep asking which countries are doing better than the UK, but nobody ever gives an actual answer.

Well, you previously claimed that the inflation situation in the USA was just as bad as in the UK. Which was false.

5 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I posted facts and it isn't my opinion .

If you feel something wasn't factual, then please reply to the point I made  and give your reasons why you think it wasn't factual 

"Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source."

https://aseannow.com/forum/158-world-news/

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Oh I see .

I thought that it was common knowledge and everyone knew ;

Brexit cost : 33 Billion 

Covid cost : 400 Billion

Ukraine cost  : 90 Billion

Google cost : Free 

 

 

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-cost-uk-gdp-economy-failure-b2246610.html

 

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9309/

 

https://www.cityam.com/russia-ukraine-war-to-deliver-90bn-blow-to-uk-economy/

Brexit is costing considerably more than stated in the link you have provided 

 

“Put another way, between April and June economic output was £33 billion lower than it would have been had the UK voted to stay in the EU, costing the government around £12 billion in lost tax revenues.In the year to the end of June 2022, Mr Springford estimates the tax loss at around £40 billion.”

 

The BREXIT costs are continuing.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-12-20/brexit-costs-government-40-billion-a-year-in-lost-tax-revenue

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexit is costing considerably more than stated in the link you have provided 

 

“Put another way, between April and June economic output was £33 billion lower than it would have been had the UK voted to stay in the EU, costing the government around £12 billion in lost tax revenues.In the year to the end of June 2022, Mr Springford estimates the tax loss at around £40 billion.”

 

The BREXIT costs are continuing.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-12-20/brexit-costs-government-40-billion-a-year-in-lost-tax-revenue

Me living in Thailand only gauge things on what my friends and family tell me, most are only moaning about a Pint costs going up to £6 or £7 in pubs. 

I say the govt should cut all VAT and taxes on beer productions.

59 minutes ago, puchooay said:

So, bearing in mind no one can see into the future, the arguement that Brexit is/was/has been more damaging than Covid and the war in Ukraine is wrong.

 

It's taken 89 pages of denial for you to finally see that

 

Better late than never.

The OP is this- "Why is the UK struggling more than other countries?"

The reason as you have pointed out here is that on top of everything the rest rest of te world has had to deal with, the UK has had to deal with Brexit which is why they are "struggling more than other countries"

Debating the size of the damage is a red-herring or a diversion.

 

1 hour ago, RayC said:

The Springford report - which 'The Independent' refers to - estimates a contraction of 5.5%/year in GDP. The cost - using Springford's calculations - would be higher than £100bn/year. Those "silly billys" at 'The Independent' got their arithmetic wrong).

They did not completely get it wrong, as it is what is shown in the report (see the graph in my previous post). They just did not notice that in was calculated in the model with constant price level, in order to neutralise the effect of inflation.. So 33b in constant price is broadly equivalent to 100b at current price level.

3 minutes ago, kwilco said:

The OP is this- "Why is the UK struggling more than other countries?"

The reason as you have pointed out here is that on top of everything the rest rest of te world has had to deal with, the UK has had to deal with Brexit which is why they are "struggling more than other countries"

Debating the size of the damage is a red-herring or a diversion.

 

That's a fair call. 

The thing is people UK need to get on with it, one way or another with the population telling the govt what they want, not the other way around, whatever that is. 

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

That's a fair call. 

The thing is people UK need to get on with it, one way or another with the population telling the govt what they want, not the other way around, whatever that is. 

yes - all the polls in UK are now telling the government that they don't want Brexit.

9 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Me living in Thailand only gauge things on what my friends and family tell me, most are only moaning about a Pint costs going up to £6 or £7 in pubs. 

I say the govt should cut all VAT and taxes on beer productions.

Well the Government are not collecting taxes on goods arriving from the EU (having failed to implement the necessary border customs checks), maybe your friends and family can get some of the completely duty free stuff.

 

 

On 11/12/2022 at 2:25 AM, ballpoint said:

Three images which, together, define the plea 'May, God, Help me'

5 minutes ago, kwilco said:

yes - all the polls in UK are now telling the government that they don't want Brexit.

I have already said about polls the only good one is a pole.

I thought that not wanting brexit is from contrary voters and Tooooo late and it's already done and done with UK can't go back. 

35 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Me living in Thailand only gauge things on what my friends and family tell me, most are only moaning about a Pint costs going up to £6 or £7 in pubs. 

I say the govt should cut all VAT and taxes on beer productions.

I had 2 pints yesterday. A real ale at £3.80 and a Guinness at £4.50. Nice pub in a nice area. Where are your friends paying their prices?

36 minutes ago, kwilco said:

yes - all the polls in UK are now telling the government that they don't want Brexit.

The polls were also saying that prior to the vote in 2016, Remain were winning in the polls before the vote