Classified documents from Biden’s time as VP discovered in private office

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

I know there are many many people that have been jailed for simply possessing classified documents they are unauthorized to. 

 

 I include a link to one, as the wording shreds the silly excuse that it's legal to take classified documents you don't have clearance to take until you get causght.

 

Weldon Marshall, 43, of Sherman, Texas, was sentenced today to 41 months in prison, to be followed by one year of supervised release, for unlawfully retaining national defence information

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-defense-contractor-sentenced-unlawfully-retaining-classified-information

Read your source.  The illegal possession of classified was clearly intentional with Weldon Marshall and Donald Trump.  That has not been shown in the case of President Biden.  All evidence points to classified being carelessly mixed in with unclassified material.  That is a security issue but not a crime.

[EVENKEEL]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Read your source.  The illegal possession of classified was clearly intentional with Weldon Marshall and Donald Trump.  That has not been shown in the case of President Biden.  All evidence points to classified being carelessly mixed in with unclassified material.  That is a security issue but not a crime.

Good to know that being a bumbling idiot is not a crime.

[Pattaya Spotter]

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

Are you back to that again  It has been explained, on one occasion using your own sources, that inadvertent mishandling of classified is not a crime.

 

Clearly you are also trolling.

So your definition of "inadvertent mishandling" includes keeping them in multiple insecure locations for years on end? Don't think even the late Jonnie Cochran could get a jury to buy that whopper. 

[Berkshire]

40 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Good to know that being a bumbling idiot is not a crime.

5555....if it was, D. Trump would have been arrested long ago.

[heybruce]

29 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

So your definition of "inadvertent mishandling" includes keeping them in multiple insecure locations for years on end? Don't think even the late Jonnie Cochran could get a jury to buy that whopper. 

You mean three different office and storage spaces?  Yes.

 

Do you have proof that Joe Biden was the one to misplace this classified and not someone on his staff?

[ozimoron]

Republicans want Biden home visitor logs - but not Trump's

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/republicans-want-biden-home-visitor-logs-not-trumps-2023-01-15/

[heybruce]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Republicans want Biden home visitor logs - but not Trump's

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/republicans-want-biden-home-visitor-logs-not-trumps-2023-01-15/

Of course they don't want Trump's.  They're terrified of what they might find. 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

All evidence points to classified being carelessly mixed in with unclassified material.  That is a security issue but not a crime.

Perhaps, but if he's that careless with classified material it casts doubt on his ability to be leader of the free world, especially as it happened at least 6 years ago.

 

The real question IMO is how did the Archives not know they were missing for 6 years, or did they know and not ask for them back? If that's not a crime IMO it should be.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Perhaps, but if he's that careless with classified material it casts doubt on his ability to be leader of the free world, especially as it happened at least 6 years ago.

 

The real question IMO is how did the Archives not know they were missing for 6 years, or did they know and not ask for them back? If that's not a crime IMO it should be.

The Whitehouse has safe storage and not all classified documents are kept with National Archives until they have been formally processed.  

[dotcalm]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

The fact that inadvertent mishandling of classified is not a crime has been explained many times.

 

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this well known fact shows that you are a troll.

 

Biden claimed he did not know he had those classified documents. Again, given his obvious cognitive decline it may seem plausible to some, though his penchant for lying must be weighed, too, when deciding if this defense is credible. Credible or not, it is not a legal defense for mishandling classified material. Law Professor J Turley explains why that excuse is not exonerating, and moreover, why the claim appears factually false.

 

 

The “inadvertent mishandling” is as incomplete a criminal defense as Bill Clinton’s claim that he smoked marijuana but “didn’t inhale.” It is designed to suggest that, while the act may technically violate the law, the conduct is excusable or harmless. It's akin to saying "I have classified and top secret docs, but I didn't read them..."

 

Biden has no declassification powers, only the President does and as a private citizen upon leaving office as VP in 2017 by retaining, possessing, mishandling classified, top secret government records in unauthorized locations Biden committed serious crimes in violation national security laws. Stupidity, ignorance, inadvertent stupidity and ignorance are not defenses to crimes and law except maybe in Biden's deluded world.

Possessing and mishandling classified government records is a national security crime in America. It seems you don't understand that, the law, etc or refuse to accept as fact Biden violated the law and therefore it is you that is being troll. You are welcome to stand down now. Before you do, show me in the criminal statutes where the term inadvertent applies when illegally in possession of and mishandling classified and top secret gov't records.

 

Additional comment:

"CBS News reported that some of the documents discovered at Biden’s think tank were marked top secret, which is the highest of the three levels of classification: confidential, secret, and top secret. A leak of top secret information could cause "exceptionally grave damage."

 

"president Bidens counsel have admitted the material was classified and held in unsecured locations"

 

Mishandling of top secret documents is a felony, as Biden had the documents in his library and in his garage in his Delaware residence, these are not secure locations as is the UPenn office in which Biden's culpability is clear.

Edited January 16, 2023 by dotcalm

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Someone knew there were classified documents in Biden's possession that should not have been there. All the but but buts in the world can't change that.

That or those person(s) need to be found.

 

There is no indication that the National Archives was aware of Biden's documents. 

That, IMO is the biggest scandal in this whole affair. WHY did they apparently not know? It's their job to know where all the classified documents are. Someone has failed in that job.

If they are that incompetent, there could be many more classified documents elsewhere that are unknown about.

Why the shock, you already knew hundreds of highly classified documents were deliberately removed, retained and concealed concealed by ANOther President.

 

Though in this particular case there is no indication of intent or indeed knowledge that the documents had been retained.

 

But you are making a valid point, there appears, in this case,  to be a failure, intentional or otherwise, of process and control.

 

I’m sure the appointed Special Council will look at this.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I am bemused by that idea being promoted that classified documents were removed when Biden lost his VP position, and unbeknown to the Archives were taken to various places including Biden's own garage, and Biden himself was completely unaware of that.

Seems Archives had no problem knowing that Trump had documents, so can we really believe they had no knowledge of the one's in Biden's possession?

The idea amusing you is not one I’ve come across.

 

Where is your evidence Biden removed documents when he lost his position as VP?

 

Does the difference in scale, Biden a very few documents, Trump hundreds of documents, play a part in the attention the National Archives have given these two different cases?

 

How about the level of classification?

 

These are rhetorical questions.
 

I’ll await answers from the Special Council’s investigation.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, riclag said:

You may be right about someone knowing they were there! I think the suppression of reporting till January 9 was huge. 
It seems many news agencies and pundits are talking about that.

Alleged suppression of reporting.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

But do you not understand Joe Biden knew Top Secret classified documents had been found improperly stored in an unsecure location in various properties owned or controlled by himself while at the very same time playing politics attacking Trump for having classified docs in a very secure place at MAL? Surely you can understand why this is an issue?

 Do Biden and his fans have integrity or not?

But Trump stole the thousands of documents in his possession and acted to retain those documents, refusing all efforts to have them returned.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

You are making the unsupported and highly unlikely claim that biden did not know he had illegally taken top secret classified documents and kept them in several unsecure locations. I put it to you it is likely biden knew about these documents for 6 to 8 YEARS depending on when he took them without permission.

You can put it as ever you like, it doesn’t detract from the fact you are making an unsubstantiated accusation.

 

Biden’s legal team reported the find immediately at the time of the find, returned the documents while Biden and his legal team are cooperating fully with the NA and the Special Council investigation.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

Are you back to that again  It has been explained, on one occasion using your own sources, that inadvertent mishandling of classified is not a crime.

 

Clearly you are also trolling.

There are two cases relating to retention of classified documents currently under investigation.

 

In this case inadvertent retention of a small number of documents followed by self reporting and full cooperation with the National Archives and the Special Counsel’s investigation.

 

In the other case, deliberate removal of thousands of documents followed by refusal to return the documents, obstruction of investigation into the document removal and retention, false statements submitted by the suspect’s legal team.

 

We can all sit back and watch exactly how these two cases progress.

 

Enjoy.

[Bkk Brian]

34 minutes ago, dotcalm said:

 

Biden claimed he did not know he had those classified documents. Again, given his obvious cognitive decline it may seem plausible to some, though his penchant for lying must be weighed, too, when deciding if this defense is credible. Credible or not, it is not a legal defense for mishandling classified material. Law Professor J Turley explains why that excuse is not exonerating, and moreover, why the claim appears factually false.

 

 

The “inadvertent mishandling” is as incomplete a criminal defense as Bill Clinton’s claim that he smoked marijuana but “didn’t inhale.” It is designed to suggest that, while the act may technically violate the law, the conduct is excusable or harmless. It's akin to saying "I have classified and top secret docs, but I didn't read them..."

 

Biden has no declassification powers, only the President does and as a private citizen upon leaving office as VP in 2017 by retaining, possessing, mishandling classified, top secret government records in unauthorized locations Biden committed serious crimes in violation national security laws. Stupidity, ignorance, inadvertent stupidity and ignorance are not defenses to crimes and law except maybe in Biden's deluded world.

Possessing and mishandling classified government records is a national security crime in America. It seems you don't understand that, the law, etc or refuse to accept as fact Biden violated the law and therefore it is you that is being troll. You are welcome to stand down now. Before you do, show me in the criminal statutes where the term inadvertent applies when illegally in possession of and mishandling classified and top secret gov't records.

 

Additional comment:

"CBS News reported that some of the documents discovered at Biden’s think tank were marked top secret, which is the highest of the three levels of classification: confidential, secret, and top secret. A leak of top secret information could cause "exceptionally grave damage."

 

"president Bidens counsel have admitted the material was classified and held in unsecured locations"

 

Mishandling of top secret documents is a felony, as Biden had the documents in his library and in his garage in his Delaware residence, these are not secure locations as is the UPenn office in which Biden's culpability is clear.

Biden has no declassification powers, only the President does and as a private citizen upon leaving office as VP in 2017 by retaining, possessing, mishandling classified, top secret government records in unauthorized locations Biden committed serious crimes in violation national security laws. Stupidity, ignorance, inadvertent stupidity and ignorance are not defenses to crimes and law except maybe in Biden's deluded world.

 

Not sure where you're getting your information from.............

 

Under an Obama-era executive order, vice presidents have the authority to classify and declassify documents — just like presidents. In January 2023, after news broke that federal documents pertaining to U.S. President Joe Biden's tenure as vice president were uncovered at his former office and Delaware home, critics pushed the erroneous notion that he didn't have the authority, while serving under Obama, to declassify those files. Nonetheless, the matter was irrelevant to the U.S. Department of Justice's review of Biden's handling of such files.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-documents/

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

The top secret documents did not walk into biden's garage and office and house where hunter claimed on a form he lived on their own. 

Obviously not.

 

But where they intentionally removed and stored there or where they mixed with other documents and unintentionally stored there?

 

Once discovered what was the response? 
 

Was the find immediately notified and the documents immediately returned or were efforts made to deny possession and prevent the NA retrieving the documents? 
 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

I know there are many many people that have been jailed for simply possessing classified documents they are unauthorized to. 

 

 I include a link to one, as the wording shreds the silly excuse that it's legal to take classified documents you don't have clearance to take until you get causght.

 

Weldon Marshall, 43, of Sherman, Texas, was sentenced today to 41 months in prison, to be followed by one year of supervised release, for unlawfully retaining national defence information

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-defense-contractor-sentenced-unlawfully-retaining-classified-information

Great news.

 

Good to see the DOJ investigating, prosecuting and getting a conviction for deliberately removing and retaining highly classified information.

 

He clearly breached both the ‘possession’ and ‘intent’ parts of 18 U.S. Code § 1924.

 

Thank you for posting, it’s news that gives hope for the prosecution of others who deliberately remove, deliberately retain and deliberately conceal classified documents.

 

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not so:

 

“18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.”

 

I’ve underlined the text to help you understand that the crime under the title has two components, both of which must be present ‘possession’ and ‘intent to retain’.

Possession is not in and of itself a crime.

 

 

 

 

 

[billd766]

7 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

But do you not understand Joe Biden knew Top Secret classified documents had been found improperly stored in an unsecure location in various properties owned or controlled by himself while at the very same time playing politics attacking Trump for having classified docs in a very secure place at MAL? Surely you can understand why this is an issue?

 Do Biden and his fans have integrity or not?

Really? 

 

And you personally know that President Biden had improperly stored classified documents himself personally?

 

Did he actually contact you and tell you that himself?

[billd766]

7 hours ago, candide said:

There is no evidence he knew about it. It's you making an unsupported claim.

He always does.

[heybruce]

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not so:

 

“18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.”

 

I’ve underlined the text to help you understand that the crime under the title has two components, both of which must be present ‘possession’ and ‘intent to retain’.

Possession is not in and of itself a crime.

 

 

 

 

 

58 minutes ago, dotcalm said:

 

Biden claimed he did not know he had those classified documents. Again, given his obvious cognitive decline it may seem plausible to some, though his penchant for lying must be weighed, too, when deciding if this defense is credible. Credible or not, it is not a legal defense for mishandling classified material. Law Professor J Turley explains why that excuse is not exonerating, and moreover, why the claim appears factually false.

 

 

The “inadvertent mishandling” is as incomplete a criminal defense as Bill Clinton’s claim that he smoked marijuana but “didn’t inhale.” It is designed to suggest that, while the act may technically violate the law, the conduct is excusable or harmless. It's akin to saying "I have classified and top secret docs, but I didn't read them..."

 

Biden has no declassification powers, only the President does and as a private citizen upon leaving office as VP in 2017 by retaining, possessing, mishandling classified, top secret government records in unauthorized locations Biden committed serious crimes in violation national security laws. Stupidity, ignorance, inadvertent stupidity and ignorance are not defenses to crimes and law except maybe in Biden's deluded world.

Possessing and mishandling classified government records is a national security crime in America. It seems you don't understand that, the law, etc or refuse to accept as fact Biden violated the law and therefore it is you that is being troll. You are welcome to stand down now. Before you do, show me in the criminal statutes where the term inadvertent applies when illegally in possession of and mishandling classified and top secret gov't records.

 

Additional comment:

"CBS News reported that some of the documents discovered at Biden’s think tank were marked top secret, which is the highest of the three levels of classification: confidential, secret, and top secret. A leak of top secret information could cause "exceptionally grave damage."

 

"president Bidens counsel have admitted the material was classified and held in unsecured locations"

 

Mishandling of top secret documents is a felony, as Biden had the documents in his library and in his garage in his Delaware residence, these are not secure locations as is the UPenn office in which Biden's culpability is clear.

Chomper Higgot was good enough to identify and post the relevant statute.  Notice that intent is necessary for there to be a crime.  Posting and reposting your uninformed opinions of the law do not change the law.

 

What Biden's team did was careless but is not illegal unless someone can prove intent.  What Trump's team did--denying, lying, refusing to return government property, etc.-- was clearly illegal. 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Perhaps, but if he's that careless with classified material it casts doubt on his ability to be leader of the free world, especially as it happened at least 6 years ago.

 

The real question IMO is how did the Archives not know they were missing for 6 years, or did they know and not ask for them back? If that's not a crime IMO it should be.

Having read the thread from the beginning I have yet to see anyone proving that President Biden personally removed the documents and hid them.

 

I have seem a lot of posts alleging that it was him or that he ordered staffers to do this for him.

 

IMHO what is missing is that little old word that means so much legally.

 

Proof that will stand up in a court of law.

 

quote "The real question IMO is how did the Archives not know they were missing for 6 years, or did they know and not ask for them back? If that's not a crime IMO it should be."

 

Now that is a very important question that needs a separate, full and very thorough investigation by both sides of the House.

[ozimoron]

So far I haven't read any allegations that any of Biden's documents were at a level above classified, meaning that possibly none were secret or top secret. That would also explain why National Archives did not have them registered. That stands in stark contrast to Trump's documents where some were  top secret and the National Archives did know they were missing.

[billd766]

41 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Biden has no declassification powers, only the President does and as a private citizen upon leaving office as VP in 2017 by retaining, possessing, mishandling classified, top secret government records in unauthorized locations Biden committed serious crimes in violation national security laws. Stupidity, ignorance, inadvertent stupidity and ignorance are not defenses to crimes and law except maybe in Biden's deluded world.

 

Not sure where you're getting your information from.............

 

Under an Obama-era executive order, vice presidents have the authority to classify and declassify documents — just like presidents. In January 2023, after news broke that federal documents pertaining to U.S. President Joe Biden's tenure as vice president were uncovered at his former office and Delaware home, critics pushed the erroneous notion that he didn't have the authority, while serving under Obama, to declassify those files. Nonetheless, the matter was irrelevant to the U.S. Department of Justice's review of Biden's handling of such files.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-documents/

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You really must stop posting facts that disagree with him, such as the truth. That does not fit in with his narrative at all.

Edited January 16, 2023 by billd766
corrected some bad spelling

[Pattaya Spotter]

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

Do you have proof that Joe Biden was the one to misplace this classified and not someone on his staff?

His own admission...is that proof enough for you?

[candide]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Biden has no declassification powers, only the President does and as a private citizen upon leaving office as VP in 2017 by retaining, possessing, mishandling classified, top secret government records in unauthorized locations Biden committed serious crimes in violation national security laws. Stupidity, ignorance, inadvertent stupidity and ignorance are not defenses to crimes and law except maybe in Biden's deluded world.

 

Not sure where you're getting your information from.............

 

Under an Obama-era executive order, vice presidents have the authority to classify and declassify documents — just like presidents. In January 2023, after news broke that federal documents pertaining to U.S. President Joe Biden's tenure as vice president were uncovered at his former office and Delaware home, critics pushed the erroneous notion that he didn't have the authority, while serving under Obama, to declassify those files. Nonetheless, the matter was irrelevant to the U.S. Department of Justice's review of Biden's handling of such files.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-documents/

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

As shown in the Snopes article, the declassification argument comes from a tweet by MTG. ????

It seems some people get their information from MTG's tweets, believe her, and repost it in this forum. Who could reasonably trust anything coming from MTG?

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by candide

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

His own admission...is that proof enough for you?

Not unless you can provide a source for your claim that President Biden stated that he was the one who misplaced this classified.

[EVENKEEL]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Obviously not.

 

But where they intentionally removed and stored there or where they mixed with other documents and unintentionally stored there?

 

Once discovered what was the response? 
 

Was the find immediately notified and the documents immediately returned or were efforts made to deny possession and prevent the NA retrieving the documents? 
 

 

Which scenario would you rather have.....intentional removal or unintentional removal? One scenario Biden is breaking procedure and the other Biden is breaking procedure and a <deleted>. dumb donkey

Edited January 16, 2023 by EVENKEEL

[Chomper Higgot]

28 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Which scenario would you rather have.....intentional removal or unintentional removal? One scenario Biden is breaking procedure and the other Biden is breaking procedure and a <deleted>. dumb donkey

How about ‘fully legally authorized holding of the documents for a period, followed by inadvertent retention of a small number of those documents and immediate self reporting of the documents when discovered, immediate return of the documents when discovered and full cooperation with the Special Counsel’s investigation’.

 

That'll do nicely.