Bailing Out / Jumpin Ship

[Gonzo the Face]

I just a few minutes ago had a conversation with an expat who has been here for many years. He informed me that he is on a retirement visa and this is his last renewal. He is now going elsewhere.  He told me of the number of expats who have left and also a number of his friends who have also been here for years, are also planning on leaving.  Reason being that the government is just making it too difficult with this and that regulations to make it worthwhile any longer.  I have noticed that customers I've had for years and years are no longer here.  Is there a large exodus of expats or is this just a perception.  I do know that governmental regulations have gotten harder to meet, but I thought it may have been my imagination.  Anyone care to comment??

[samuttodd]

I fear that no border is immune from red tape <deleted> and regulatory hijinx.    Some places are better than others,  but as soon as the beuracracies figure out that they can make money with red tape... it is all over.   

 

Just like the republic of the USA,  as soon as the politicians figured out that they could keep voting in pay raises,  things started getting sour.

[FritsSikkink]

I think they didn't have the means to get a proper visa for many years and now that there are stricter controls, they can't afford to live here anymore.

[Rimmer]

Troll post removed

[ezzra]

Indeed, things got somewhat tougher in the past few years and some of the requirements got tedious and absurd, but whoever can fill those requirements, which by the way are fair and straight forward if you're a retiree and have some money put aside, those people can stay in the kingdom like for as long as they like, where's shoestings stayers will find it ever more difficult...

[mike787]

Simply put, YES, you and

many are correct.  

Edited December 21, 2019 by mike787

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It's been a succession of mounting things....

 

--the end of income affidavits for US and UK residents, two of the largest western expat groups here.

 

--the resulting and pretty arbitrary and unfriendly rules Immigration adopted as a replacement governing monthly foreign bank transfers, the transfers having to be coded just so, not accepting deposit averaging over the year, and coming at a time when BKKB U.S. was curtailing their easy international transfers method.

 

--Along with, the increased requirements for holding time on people using the bank deposits method for extensions, including the new requirement that at least 400K of a retirement extension's 800K bank deposit must be kept untouched yearround, and the full amount must be kept untouched 5-6 months of the year.

 

--followed by the latest and VERY poorly thought thru health insurance requirement for current and past O-A visa holders -- which pretty much doesn't allow for home country insurance even when it provides full coverage in Thailand, and a companion Thai insurance industry market that simply won't write affordable policies, or any policies, as people get older -- which pretty much defeats the purpose of having an O-A RETIREMENT visa program.

 

So after all that, a lot of folks are looking down the road and saying what's going to be next?

[CMNightRider]

I personally know several western retirees who been been here for several years, start leaving Thailand at the first of the year when Thai Immigration stopped allowing them to show sufficient funds in western banks and brokerage accounts.  

 

When you talk to owners of restaurants in the Nimmanhaemin area, they will say the same thing about loosing many of their long term western customers.  The funds immigration wants deposited into Thai banks, and the TM30 reporting seemed to be the last straw for most.  Thai Immigration already had the idoitic 90 day reporting and yearly visa renewal nonsense.

 

The Chinese seem to be replacing the westerners but Thailands tourist industry is so unsafe, they have been getting many of the Chinese tourists killed in boat accidents.  Thailand as a western retiree destination has lost its luster.  The western retiree is moving on to less restrictive countries and even returning to their home countries.  

 

 

[BestB]

To be honest I do not think it’s government regulations but more to do they can no longer afford living here with rising prices and their pensions falling due to strong currency .

 

Most have lost 30% of their pension due to bad exchange rate and prices keep rising .

 

Other countries may appeal better but grass is always greener on the other side. 

[BritManToo]

11 minutes ago, BestB said:

Other countries may appeal better but grass is always greener on the other side. 

VISA/Extension is just too much effort in Thailand.

I can stay in Cambodia for $300/year or Philippines on continuous extensions for 3 years, while having to show no finances/savings/insurance, or queue in any immigration offices at all, or anyone care where I am (or even if I'm illegally working).

[Thailand]

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

VISA/Extension is just too much effort in Thailand.

I can stay in Cambodia for $300/year or Philippines on continuous extensions for 3 years, while having to show no finances/savings/insurance, or queue in any immigration offices at all, or anyone care where I am (or even if I'm illegally working).

What happens after 3 years?

 

Seriously, we are among those looking to liquidate all Thai assets so they should it be necessary we can opt out. Where is obviously a major concern.

We also have friends going the same route.Like it here but need to be more flexible should it be necessary to opt out

[BestB]

7 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

VISA/Extension is just too much effort in Thailand.

I can stay in Cambodia for $300/year or Philippines on continuous extensions for 3 years, while having to show no finances/savings/insurance, or queue in any immigration offices at all, or anyone care where I am (or even if I'm illegally working).

Yes, that part of life is easier, what about everything else? Example medical? 

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, Thailand said:

What happens after 3 years?

 

Seriously, we are among those looking to liquidate all Thai assets so they should it be necessary we can opt out. Where is obviously a major concern.

We also have friends going the same route.Like it here but need to be more flexible should it be necessary to opt out

After 3 years of continuous extensions, they want you to leave for 1 night.

Then you can go straight back and live on extensions for another 3 years.

[BestB]

Just now, BritManToo said:

After 3 years of continuous extensions, they want you to leave for 1 night.

Then you can go straight back and live on extensions for another 3 years.

And that’s how it was in Thailand before. So you make a move and in a few years they also change rules, what then? 
 

personally I can not live out of a bag , feeling like a tourist . I need home to feel like at home. 
 

once other places experience expat influx , no doubt their regulators will also change . 
 

yet to meet a happy expat from Phillipines . All miserable and living like backpackers 

[Thailand]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

After 3 years of continuous extensions, they want you to leave for 1 night.

Then you can go straight back and live on extensions for another 3 years.

I will look at Cambodia as an option in more depth as an option in the future as it does seem that the pressure is building here.

But still the love the place but the love seems more one sided than it was a good few years ago.  Maybe just too old now for the uncertainty but fully aware of the "greener grass".

[Puchaiyank]

Made my exit in Nov for all the reasons described in this post.  Wanted to stay forever...but at what cost to my personal freedom and sense of acceptance...

 

Happy to be away from all the hassles...

[saengd]

34 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

VISA/Extension is just too much effort in Thailand.

I can stay in Cambodia for $300/year or Philippines on continuous extensions for 3 years, while having to show no finances/savings/insurance, or queue in any immigration offices at all, or anyone care where I am (or even if I'm illegally working).

Except the countries that you mention are not fully developed, have poor infrastructure, poor medical facilities (by western standards) and are just as unsafe, if not much more so than any other place in SE Asia, especially the Southern parts of the PI, Mindano etc. So yes, those places may be cheaper and easier but better, I don't think so.

[saengd]

Gonzo....I think what we're all seeing currently is the effect of an overly strong baht combined with a tightening of overly lax visa regs,  both those things have finally put so much pressure on expats who were previously hanging on by just their finger tips and finally many of them have had to cave in and leave. I personally know of one American who lived nearby for many years in a 15 million Baht house but he doesn't have any cash in the bank and he can't get an income letter. He couldn't sell the house so he's been forced to move to Laos. My next door neighbour was an offshore oil worker who was earning lots of money but didn't save any, he's just relocated his family and his self to Scotland for a permanent job and his house is now rented to Chinese. There's two examples in the past eighteen months, both within one hundred metres of me, there must be tones more I don't know about.

[NordicDemon]

26 minutes ago, BestB said:

And that’s how it was in Thailand before. So you make a move and in a few years they also change rules, what then? 
 

personally I can not live out of a bag , feeling like a tourist . I need home to feel like at home. 
 

once other places experience expat influx , no doubt their regulators will also change .

If the rules change, people must adapt and move on with their lives, whether that be in Thailand or elsewhere. And I agree with you that it's important to feel at home. In the Philippines, people can at least get an SRR visa which allows for multiple entries to the Philippines and gives the holder the right to permanently reside in the country.

 

29 minutes ago, BestB said:

yet to meet a happy expat from Phillipines . All miserable and living like backpackers 

Your experience is completely different from mine. Most expats from the Philippines who I've met are very happy living there.

[Isaan Alan]

Yes the rising baht has cost me 15-20% of my $A and Chinese rmb

TM30 is a joke - the owner is supposed to report but the tenant can't renew their visa if he doesn't. Go for a visit to neighbouring province and you need to report away (yes, I know, probably a hotel) and when you come back home. What's that the swarmies say? "do it online".  if you can get it to work

the Thai bureacracy in general - a sprinkling of psychos, swindlers and just plain dummies,

The effort required to open a bank account, get a residencer certificate or yellow book. Not just for us falangs either, a Thai buying land needed 3 visits to the Thai lands office and it took 3 months.

discriminating pricing now extending to hospital visits. Wally insurance policies.

[Mavideol]

59 minutes ago, BestB said:

Yes, that part of life is easier, what about everything else? Example medical? 

if the medical is so good in Thailand they will have the option to come back and get serviced

[toofarnorth]

30 minutes ago, Puchaiyank said:

Made my exit in Nov for all the reasons described in this post.  Wanted to stay forever...but at what cost to my personal freedom and sense of acceptance...

 

Happy to be away from all the hassles...

So why read Thai Visa ?  I left England and have made my home here , my 400,000 B is in the bank . I don't read any , not one English newspaper , I don't need to know how cold it is , how much more a ticket costs to get into the city . Why are so many complaining on here today ?

[ramrod711]

44 minutes ago, Thailand said:

I will look at Cambodia as an option in more depth as an option in the future as it does seem that the pressure is building here.

But still the love the place but the love seems more one sided than it was a good few years ago.  Maybe just too old now for the uncertainty but fully aware of the "greener grass".

My wife is the only reason I stay. I'm fortunate to have enough income to qualify for a pension letter from the Canadian consulate. They still issue them if proof of income is supplied. The health insurance is a big issue for me, I don't expect Thai people to pay my medical bills, I'm willing to deposit money in a Thai bank but not buy <deleted> insurance that won't cover hardly anything because of diabetes. Every year I read the magazine articles that tell readers the best places to retire. Many of them look attractive to me but my wife won't leave.

[Mavideol]

35 minutes ago, Puchaiyank said:

Made my exit in Nov for all the reasons described in this post.  Wanted to stay forever...but at what cost to my personal freedom and sense of acceptance...

 

Happy to be away from all the hassles...

but you didn't say where, it would be nice to know and how are you adapting to the new place, do understand if you want to keep privacy

[Gweiloman]

For me, the deal breaker will be mandatory health insurance as I have a pre-existing condition (3 stents). I can easily self insure the coverage needed and will definitely not purchase the insurance packages currently laid out. 
I find the other requirement (800/400k) reasonable, especially when compared to the requirements of western countries. Stuff like 90day and TM30 is a hassle but not deal breakers.
With the exception of Malaysia, the other affordable ASEAN countries lack far behind in terms of infrastructure, facilities and food offerings. 

[DaddyWarbucks]

6 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

For me, the deal breaker will be mandatory health insurance as I have a pre-existing condition (3 stents). I can easily self insure the coverage needed and will definitely not purchase the insurance packages currently laid out. 
I find the other requirement (800/400k) reasonable, especially when compared to the requirements of western countries. Stuff like 90day and TM30 is a hassle but not deal breakers.
With the exception of Malaysia, the other affordable ASEAN countries lack far behind in terms of infrastructure, facilities and food offerings. 

Excellent post.

It sums up the topic very well.

[madmen]

Lets cut the BS gents. The 500 exodus threads all started after the embassies shat on their own citizens and BOOM the thousands that built their future based on a house cards based upon a scribble signature on a BS  affidavit saw it collapse and are now very very upset and angry .

 

No sympathy from me or any of my expat friends. Good riddance and thanks for making Immigration suspicious of even the good guys

 

You reap what you sow 

[BestB]

23 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

if the medical is so good in Thailand they will have the option to come back and get serviced

If they can not afford it now , how will

they afford to come back?

[OneMoreFarang]

Recently I spoke with a farang who is since forever responsible for the bakeries is a gig supermarket chain.

He told me he is reducing the types of bakery items for sale because they sell significantly less than they used to sell.

And he told me that is especially for items which farangs typically buy.

 

Obviously that is no clear indicator what is going on but I think it definitely is an indicator. The quality and prices from that supermarket chain were always good and fair. So I think it's unlikely that people buy now similar products somewhere else.

That means people buy less (because they don't have the money anymore) or the people who used to buy are not here anymore.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 minutes ago, madmen said:

Lets cut the BS gents. The 500 exodus threads all started after the embassies shat on their own citizens and BOOM the thousands that built their future based on a house cards based upon a scribble signature on a BS  affidavit saw it collapse and are now very very upset and angry .

 

No sympathy from me or any of my expat friends. Good riddance and thanks for making Immigration suspicious of even the good guys

 

You reap what you sow 

 

Yours is a vastly oversimplified post and comment. Yes, the loss of income affidavits caught some folks out. But there were/are many others who had previously used the income affidavits and DO have the monthly income, but may also have expenses in their home country, may have their income arrive irregularly instead of exactly monthly, may not like the hassles and expense of having to do exactly 12 monthly international transfers, and then have Immigration say NO because one of them fell on the 31st of the month instead of the 1st, etc etc.

 

And then all the other changes that I listed above started getting piled on top of the income affidavits problem. So even if a person wasn't affected by the income affidavits, they likely were affected by the changes about keeping bank deposits untouched and/or the looming requirement for a largely unworkable health insurance requirement that easily could have made better but wasn't.