Are expats being tempted by Thailand?

[WinterGael]

Thailand talks a good talk, but falls flat when it comes to reality.  I know some people who looked at their investment visas, then came to the country, then passed Thailand by for the Philippines. Why? Because their elite visas are not as advertised (basically throwing your money away).  Their words.  Also, they did not feel that the country is that welcoming, the infrastructure has much to be desired, and outside of cars, things just seem to be low quality.

 

Now, they are not 100% sold on the Philippines either, but the financial they feel are far and above the Thai requirements.  And medical included they said. They also like Vietnam, but it doesn't have the visas yet.  That said, of the countries they visited, Vietnam was their favourite.  So who knows...

 

Moral of the story, Thailand is a big no for many reasons.  I live here with my wife, (followed her here). It's okay... but when I did the extension on marriage, oh my god, what a hassle. And another one coming up soon.  Thailand is okay, but if I was single and retiring, I think I would be like the rest of my family... been there, done that, no point in going back. My brother is retiring in the Philippines.  Some friends in Mexico.  Others in Latin America or the Caribbean... one thing everyone says about all of them, quality of life is awesome, bang for your buck is huge, and they like having you.... 

 

Thailand needs a lot of work to ever become a truly welcoming place for retirement. 

 

[olfu]

Nice talking but main problem is freaking Covid19, then age related insurance and most countries where I wanna go plainly on lockdown like Japan.

[Almer]

Would help if Thailand had an arrangement regarding annual pension increases.

[Dogmatix]

The aritcle is nonsense from people who make a living out of providing financial services, often of questionable quality, to financially illiterate expats.  I have never heard of the 5 year retirement visa mentioned.  Investment in your own business through the BoI is only open to approved projects in the sectors BoI wants to promote and the process and reporting and inspection requirements for BoI companies are onerous.  If you BoI privileges expire or are cancelled you lose the right to 100% foreign ownership. 

 

For expat couples and others who have no Thai family and no interest in acquiring one or playing the girly scene, I would not advise retirement in Thailand. I came here to work and was able to get PR and then citizenship but neither are possible to those who don't work in Thailand.  I would hate to be treated like a third class citizen with no right to own land or my own business and always at the whim of surly and corrupt immigration officers to renew visas.  Even as a PR I was fed up with the fact that PRs are not treated as they are in developed countries where they usually have all right except te right to vote and other political rights.  In many ways Thai PRs are treated no differently from other foreigners without the right to work, own businesses and land.   Not having to renew visas is good but they have to go through a costly annual endorsement rigmarole at Immigration, if they want to travel, and have no other rights, even though gettting it is a hugely onerous and costly process.  

 

I think there are many places where expats can be treated with more respect.  I would also look for places with reciprocal healthcare benefites.  Many expats end up having to relocate urgently when they hit an unexpected health crisis.  

[Dogmatix]

9 minutes ago, Almer said:

Would help if Thailand had an arrangement regarding annual pension increases.

Absolutely.  A complete rip by the UK govt from pensioners who have paid the same contributions as others who get increments.  Now inflation is rearing its ugly head again, UK state pensions will be wiped out in a few short years. 

[sambum]

10 hours ago, tonray said:

I thought they all flocked to Bath on their holiday week...????????????????

I've mentioned before that the top destination for Brit holidaymakers this year is cited as  Cornwall!!!

[Benmart]

Propaganda.

[Orinoco]

4 hours ago, vandeventer said:

Just remember if you go to Pattaya right now learn to swim first!!!

I think this one is called,  Aqua world condo  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL.

Think the drain needs unblocking.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Orinoco

[vandeventer]

3 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

Will older men want to come and settle in Thailand? Hmmm, tough one, you mean the Thailand that comes with a sex-guarantee for older men? Hmmm, it's a tricky one, let me think, sunshine, cheap accommodation, easiest retirement visa in the world, vibrant culture, top 5 cuisines in the world, beaches, exciting cities, and oh yes, easy, slim, stupid women who give a sex-guarantee for older men. Really hard question.

 

Of course older men will come to settle in Thailand. Obviously not super rich, but those with a bit of cash who want live in the sun, have adventures, have sex, eat good food,will come. They've been coming for 40 years plus.

 

The thing is look at the alternatives:

 

1. France - ice cold in winter, women even colder, expensive.

 

2. Spain - like all of Europe dying cities, overrun by Africans, Romanians, extremely high crime in the cities, clammy winters

 

3. Italy - see Spain

 

4. USA - Too many crazies who will kill you, crumbling infrastructure, homeless everywhere, insane immigration requirements

 

5. Caribbean - Too far away, too expensive.

 

6. China - Too many Chinese

 

7. Phillippines - Terrible internet, crime, homeless everywhere

 

8. Vietnam - Too Chinese, too Communist, no visa options

 

9. Malaysia - Visa option too expensive, too many Arabs and Africans, too Muslim

 

10.  Indonesia - Terrible internet, crime, visa difficult

 

11. All of south America = insane crime rates.

 

Yes, all the complaints, tough residency requirements, expensive luxury tax, idiot driving, lack of ownership rights, that's all true, but these are small annoyances one can put up with.

 

Thailand is the only sensible choice really. Even Uruguay has a killer crime issue now, Panama is in the middle of nowhere.

 

Thailand is hands down, one of the most, if not the most, attractive options for expats.

Forget all the options the best thing about Thailand are it's people, that's why it is so good to live here.

[Tanomazu]

36 minutes ago, WinterGael said:

Thailand talks a good talk, but falls flat when it comes to reality.  I know some people who looked at their investment visas, then came to the country, then passed Thailand by for the Philippines. Why? Because their elite visas are not as advertised (basically throwing your money away).  Their words.  Also, they did not feel that the country is that welcoming, the infrastructure has much to be desired, and outside of cars, things just seem to be low quality.

 

Now, they are not 100% sold on the Philippines either, but the financial they feel are far and above the Thai requirements.  And medical included they said. They also like Vietnam, but it doesn't have the visas yet.  That said, of the countries they visited, Vietnam was their favourite.  So who knows...

 

Moral of the story, Thailand is a big no for many reasons.  I live here with my wife, (followed her here). It's okay... but when I did the extension on marriage, oh my god, what a hassle. And another one coming up soon.  Thailand is okay, but if I was single and retiring, I think I would be like the rest of my family... been there, done that, no point in going back. My brother is retiring in the Philippines.  Some friends in Mexico.  Others in Latin America or the Caribbean... one thing everyone says about all of them, quality of life is awesome, bang for your buck is huge, and they like having you.... 

 

Thailand needs a lot of work to ever become a truly welcoming place for retirement. 

 

The infrastructure in Thailand leaves much to be desired? Have you tried to connect to the internet in the Philippines? The infrastructure in Thailand is considerably better than the Philippines. It's known to be the country with the worst internet in all of SE Asia.

 

Why was Vietnam their favourite? Are they scooter enthusiasts?

 

Mexico? Latin America? If you want to be stabbed to death in the streets maybe. Caribbean? Most boring place in the world after a year, no culture. Bang for the buck? Caribbean is massively expensive. Plus you'd be out in nowhere land.

 

How is Thailand not welcoming? I can't think of a more welcoming place.

[Tanomazu]

36 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

I would hate to be treated like a third class citizen with no right to own land or my own business and always at the whim of surly and corrupt immigration officers to renew visas.

There is a well established, straight forward and inexpensive solution to own land if you are so inclined. Thousands of expats use it.

 

Immigration every 90 days is just a minor annoyance that is over and done with quickly if you're paying the right people.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, tlcwaterfall said:

Good post. Would be interested if you could let us know which countries you refer to.

Thai lady we know married to a uk guy did her initial report/interview and was stamped in for 18 months. Does the the 18 month interview gets another 18 months then applies for a uk passport.

[Grusa]

8 hours ago, HeijoshinCool said:

.

Dunno, because all the girls look like sisters...?

You mean like nuns?  or nurses? 

[thaitom]

2 hours ago, Millcx said:

NO

No

[wombat]

Tempted?
my guess is that it depends if they left their brains at BKK airport the first time they were here?

[wombat]

19 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

There is a well established, straight forward and inexpensive solution to own land if you are so inclined. Thousands of expats use it.

Yes there certainly is...put everything in your TG's name, jobs done.
What could possibly go wrong, you're both in love?

[KannikaP]

1 hour ago, Almer said:

Would help if Thailand had an arrangement regarding annual pension increases.

I agree, £200 a year will really change my way of life here.   LOL

[newnative]

3 hours ago, khunPer said:

Apart from the Joker - the wealthy Chinese, who's preferences I don't know much about - I don't think the number of wealthy expats preferring Thailand will be huge; however, some might settle on mainly Phuket, and probably also on Samui, both places have a number of private high end villas, but Phuket has a preference with a marina, which includes some higher end boats and yachts.

 

More average retired expats might be a lot more worth aiming at. Those that are a kind of "economic refugees", seeking a little more value for limited retirement pensions and other savings, but still having more than those with only a small government pension. That's the kind of folks that can afford an 800k baht deposit, and also can afford to live in a fair home, and spend the average 65k baht or more each month. There are likely plenty of them, but Thailand might be too difficult to settle in, and is therefore lower on the preference list, if not avoided from the beginning.

 

Easing restrictions for "the good guys" and let them in, could make Thailand a lot more attractive. Easing the terms could be removal of the for many irritating 90-day reports, and less demanding paperwork when applying for annual extension of stay, perhaps more or less kept to only keeping the deposit intact. There could for example be a kind of approval period for a couple of years, or three - where the documentation is little more restrictive, but not as difficult as now - after which permission to stay as retired is made simple for "the good guys" that have performed during the previous years, a kind of "permanent retiree residency".

 

Also optional, or mandatory, acces to the public health system, could be of general interest, if the individual don't have a private health insurance. It's been mentioned before, and it would also benefit those expats staying under other kind of annual extensions. Terms and offers same as for the citizens of the nations. A few years back an annual cost for handling foreigners in public hospitals were mentioned as 7,000 baht to 10,000 baht per year (the around 3,000 baht amount was for migrant workers from neighboring countries). In today's IT-era it must be easy to keep data and generate reports, so a kind of public health insurance, based on actual treatment expenses plus an overhead for unforeseen, which might all together be between 1,000 baht and 1,500 baht a month - including for example a 10 percent overcharge to benefit the public health system - annually adjusted. It might also help those retirees of age, that cannot enter a new health insurance, and thereby refrain from moving to Thailand, even they have funds enough for deposit and annual spending.

 

We don't seem to have statistics over the number of retired expats, but a 2010-study form Mahidol University concluded that there were 2,581,141 foreigners living in Thailand, and when disregarding South East Asians, i.e. numerous migrants workers, about 720.000 were so-called "expats". The major groups were 141,000 Chinese, 85,000 Brits, 80,000 Japanese, 46,000 Indian, 40,000 Americans, 24,000 Germans, and 23,000 French. But they are likely far from all retirees. The financial magazine Bloomberg reported that in 2018 there were issued 80,000 retirement visas (? -or perhaps combined with extensions of stay based on retirement?), where Brits accounted for 16 percent, Americans for 12 percent, Germans for 9 percent, Chinese for 7 percent, and Swiss for 6 percent; perhaps that figures more reflect the mix of retirees measured on nationality.

 

If there are approx 80,000 people staying on retirement conditions, and if they in average each brings 65,000 baht per month for consumption, i.e. circa 800,000 baht per year, into the country, then we are talking about a 64 billion baht "turnover"; it's more than 30 times as much as so far generated from the combined Sandbox-programs; not including any one-time investments in condos, houses, cars, and other items. Many retirees invests in the level of average 1 million baht for a vehicle, and a number also easily invests 3 million baht, or much more, in property; easing property investments, i.e. ownership for retired foreigners, might increase the interest and boost these figures; it could be several hundred billions baht inflow in foreign currency.

 

Retiree residents bring their consumption in every year, i.e. for just 80.000 persons it's 64 billion baht or more per year, so it's worth keeping these people, and worth making sure that they are replaced when passing away, preferably that the number increases instead of decreasing. Retirees don't costs expensive campaigns, and other costly arrangements, when they once are happily settled in the nation - and continue to be happy - then they just keep on spending.

 

If you consider the target to be among the 10 percent richest people in the World - $93,000 or more in savings, according to Credit Suisse in 2018 - i.e. 10 percent of 7.8 billion, then it's approx 780 million people of which at least 1/3 are in retiring age - there might be more wealthy people in the retiring age than young folks that are in the beginning their career, typically people will be 35 years or older when having $93,000 in savings - so there is a target on at least 260 million retirees, probably many more, that fits into the financial level; it could easily be around 400 millions to 500 millions. How many of these at least 260 million retirees would love to spend the remaining years, with a little more quality of life in a "whole year summer and barefoot Xmas"-destination, if it's within financial reach, and with reasonable conditions?

 

It might be a lot more easy to double that amount of retirees in the 800,000 baht financial level, than to find a similar amount of money for spending on annual consumption among filthy rich retirees, who would prefer Thailand as residence in front of other attractive destinations.

 

How many filthy rich retirees are needed to equal 64+ billion baht in spending, i.e. how much do a rich person spend in average per month, when investments are not included, 10 times as much as a 65,000-baht mob-retiree, or...????

Terrific post.  Thanks.

[Laughing Gravy]

11 hours ago, Orinoco said:

No

I think you are being very shallow with your words It should be at least, No Way.????

[Orinoco]

8 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

I agree, £200 a year will really change my way of life here.   LOL

it's about 6 jumps a year for free.

Also,  about the amount of time most get to escape the wife's eyes !!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

TIT.

[StevieAus]

10 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Thailand's Visa Requirements are not difficult, especially for the "Rich" as they have a number of options available to them (Elite/Investment Visas being the 2 obvious ones), they're only difficult for people unable or unwilling  to invest & (rightly or wrongly) these are not the demographic that Thailand is trying to attract.  

 

 

You'd be hard put to find as easy or cheap visa requirements in the region, Philippines is probably the only one with it's SRRV (though this involve as jumping through as many if not more hoops), Malaysia has recently doubled it's financial requirements for MM2H, Cambodia has a dodgy business visa that could be clamped down on anytime & I don't think Vietnam has anything... 

 

On balance if you're able/willing to put the money into Thailand, it's relatively straight forward to live here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t think it’s particularly hard to be able to gain entry to live here even if you are not “rich.”

I don’t consider having access to 800.000 baht or half that amount if married as meeting that definition..

A fifty year old Thai with access to that amount of money would not be able to enter Australia visa free and remain indefinitely or in fact most other countries I have visited and probably neither would I.

 

[ThomasThBKK]

1 hour ago, Orinoco said:

I think this one is called,  Aqua world condo  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL.

Think the drain needs unblocking.

 

 

If only we were more like Europe and had some real floods.

 

Or California or Australian bush fires....

[tingtongfarang]

One thing i have noticed in the last years is how many xpats have left thailand never to return, its becoming a lonely place for expats, i also am thinking of leaving after 16+ years

[1FinickyOne]

9 hours ago, worgeordie said:

less scams, double pricing ,

Plenty of scams in USA and much more double pricing... and the double pricing is way more than a measly 200 baht or 20 baht at some places.. And yet, people there accept it, but here, give a farang a reason to whine... wheeew... 

[Tanomazu]

25 minutes ago, wombat said:

Yes there certainly is...put everything in your TG's name, jobs done.
What could possibly go wrong, you're both in love?

Not at all what I meant. You can use the corporate route.

[1FinickyOne]

9 minutes ago, StevieAus said:

I don’t think it’s particularly hard to be able to gain entry to live here even if you are not “rich.”

I don’t consider having access to 800.000 baht or half that amount if married as meeting that definition..

A fifty year old Thai with access to that amount of money would not be able to enter Australia visa free and remain indefinitely or in fact most other countries I have visited and probably neither would I.

 

Glad to see that someone else can compare and contrast...

 

The requirements to live here full time are so minimal... its only a problem if you can't meet the requirements easily. The actual cost is near nothing... and most of us can just walk in w/a 30 day stamp for free.. it is quite a process for a Thai to go to USA and then most will not qualify... 

[ThailandRyan]

1 hour ago, Orinoco said:

I think this one is called,  Aqua world condo  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL.

Think the drain needs unblocking.

 

 

Oh now the movie Water world starring Kevin Costner is about to come true.  Glad I will have awhile to wait until it reaches the top floor here.......ordering my giant inflatable zodiac raft with a full cover, and an electric motor that will run off of solar power and recharge the batteries.

[Orinoco]

29 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Oh now the movie Water world starring Kevin Costner is about to come true.  Glad I will have awhile to wait until it reaches the top floor here.......ordering my giant inflatable zodiac raft with a full cover, and an electric motor that will run off of solar power and recharge the batteries.

impressive.

Reckon you could get 50 or 60 Asylum  seekers in that.

easy double your money or more.

Get it boxed up and ship it to, Calais France.

There are shops there that will go mad for that.

Has it got a smart phone charger onboard for them ?

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Orinoco

[ThailandRyan]

6 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

impressive.

Reckon you could get 50 or 60 Asylum  seekers in that.

easy double your money or more.

Get it boxed up and ship it to, Calais France.

There are shops there that will go mad for that.

Has it got a smart phone charger onboard ?

 

Sure you could add one.  Need to put two seats inside that can recline so you can sleep.....lol

[OJAS]

10 hours ago, HeijoshinCool said:

.

 

Sorry, are you talking about Thailand, or the UK, or France, or Germany, or the USA?

Suspect that @spidermike007 might, in fact, be referring to that considerably more blind and toxic dinosaur called the EU!