Engine seize

[xylophone]

12 hours ago, Woof999 said:

I'll happily post the outcome, but based on many of the replies here I probably wont expect much other than suspicion and doubt.

I sympathise with you Woof999, and I've read through the whole of the thread, and you have experienced what I have experienced at times in the past on this thread and its previous incarnation.

 

Far too many posters who will question your integrity amongst other things, and that is why I have severely reduced the number of my posts, and I have been on this and its previous site since 2005, mainly because I'm fed up with their nonsense accusations.

 

So pleased that you have got confirmation from Mitsubishi that the dealer should have checked your oil, and also that they have offered some sort of recompense, however if it were me I would buy something else – – good luck with whatever you choose.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Woof999 said:

In brighter news, the Toyota Cross GR Sport and the Fortuner Legender 2.4 2WD both look awesome, so test drives booked for tomorrow. Whatever happens I wont be a Mitsi customer for much longer.

If Mitsubishi admits fault, why would you not expect the repairs to be free? 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

4 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Is it?  Since when?  What do you know about the intricacies of the investigation into "a problem with engine power under load and at speeds > 70kph"?   I doubt that the first reaction of of most people to that symptom would be to straight to the dipstick, except for those wanting to have yet another blame game go at Thais in general.

 

I would imagine that for a car that had just been driven in, with no indications of obvious problems such as severe overheating, and the owner complaining only of a lock of power over 70kph, the first thong that would happen is that a tech would start the car to move it to the service bay.    As the OP stated, the tech would immediately see no oil warning light or any sign of overheating, in fact nothing to suggest that the owner had delivered a car with nothing but tar in the sump so no reason to expect that there was no oil in it.

 

 

With anything potentially engine related any garage should be checking everything which could possibly be an issue…. In this case a power issue - it could be many things. 
 

They changed suspension parts !!! They went beyond the issue & you suggest they didn’t need to check the oil ????  

The garage have already admitted they should have checked the oil.  
 

Would you now argue with the garage that they didn’t need to ??? 

 

 

I imagine if I said my car is white, you’d argue it’s not !!! ….

[alextrat1966]

Guys don't be donkeys here... 

 

If the dealer had drained the oil and not added new one, that engine wouldn't have lasted more than 2-3 km before completely seizing. 

 

If maintenance had been neglected by the owner, and the engine had be running low on oil, the damage was already done. It made no difference whether the dealer topped it up on Friday. 

 

If the engine seized by Monday, it means oil starvation damage by Friday was already too severe...

 

 - Scored cylinders. 

 - Scored cams. 

 - Scored bearings (I suspect this is what happened, due to oil starvation the bearings wore over time till one of them was too thin and either broke or spun seizing the engine). 

 

I know looking for blame on others, or saying Thais bad is the easy way out. But the only one to be blamed here is the owner. The dealer did nothing wrong. Even if they had added oil on Friday, that engine was mortally damaged.

[Woof999]

7 minutes ago, alextrat1966 said:

Guys don't be donkeys here... 

 

If the dealer had drained the oil and not added new one, that engine wouldn't have lasted more than 2-3 km before completely seizing. 

 

If maintenance had been neglected by the owner, and the engine had be running low on oil, the damage was already done. It made no difference whether the dealer topped it up on Friday. 

 

If the engine seized by Monday, it means oil starvation damage by Friday was already too severe...

 

 - Scored cylinders. 

 - Scored cams. 

 - Scored bearings (I suspect this is what happened, due to oil starvation the bearings wore over time till one of them was too thin and either broke or spun seizing the engine). 

 

I know looking for blame on others, or saying Thais bad is the easy way out. But the only one to be blamed here is the owner. The dealer did nothing wrong. Even if they had added oil on Friday, that engine was mortally damaged.

Wouldn't you expect some serious vibrations or rattling well before it finally gave up?

[alextrat1966]

27 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Wouldn't you expect some serious vibrations or rattling well before it finally gave up?

If my theory about oil starvation is correct, the engine would have been knocking for quite some time (rod knock). But rod knock is a sound that is not easy to tell by someone who is not very experienced with engines, so you may not have realized, specially if you never opened the bonnet! It's impossible to tell rod knock from the inside. 

 

Other than that, I wouldn't expect serious rattling, when a bearing breaks or spun suddenly the crankshaft is faced with an enormous resistance, so the engine starts running rough and dying out til it finally dies seized solid (or very very hard to move).

[lodstewart]

15 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I’ve not checked the oil levels in any of my vehicles over the past 25 years....  This is something I expect the Garage to do when I take the car in for a service - I can’t remember the last time I opened a bonnet (hood) of a car !!!! 

 

The only things I expect to have to do on my own vehicle are:

- Clean it (usually a local valet)

- Check tyre pressure (I watch the attendant at a petrol station do it to the pressure I ask for)

- Fill it with fuel (petrol attendants do it)

- Ensure water for washers (I ask a petrol attendant to do it) 

 

For everything else I expect a warning to signal and the garage to check it. 

 

Thats modern motoring, we’re not in the 1960’s any more where we are expected to get our hands dirty - I can’t be bothered with any of that on modern cars. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes ok, and then there are those of us who love our cars and engines and we prefer to look after them.

but of course , as they say around here ....up to you.

in which camp do you put the OP then ? because He did neither.

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, lodstewart said:

yes ok, and then there are those of us who love our cars and engines and we prefer to look after them.

but of course , as they say around here ....up to you.

in which camp do you put the OP then ? because He did neither.

I don't see it like that I look after my vehicles too especially my big motorbike.

 

Years ago engine were far less efficient than they are today so checking oil was a routine thing. 

 

Nowadays people who not know much about cars rely on the car instruments and their preferred garage to to do check for them. 

 

I don't see it as a problem these days. 

[Woof999]

12 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

If Mitsubishi admits fault, why would you not expect the repairs to be free? 

 

 

For me, because I'm not without fault and the car is my ultimate responsibility. I would just expect better advise from a main dealer.

 

I've also been a business owner for many years and have at least a reasonable expectation of right and wrong. The repairs should not be free or anything close to free, but the dealer should not be making a big profit out of repairing it either.

[Yellowtail]

11 hours ago, alextrat1966 said:

If my theory about oil starvation is correct, the engine would have been knocking for quite some time (rod knock). But rod knock is a sound that is not easy to tell by someone who is not very experienced with engines, so you may not have realized, specially if you never opened the bonnet! It's impossible to tell rod knock from the inside. 

 

Other than that, I wouldn't expect serious rattling, when a bearing breaks or spun suddenly the crankshaft is faced with an enormous resistance, so the engine starts running rough and dying out til it finally dies seized solid (or very very hard to move).

 

And with the windows up and the AC on even less likely someone would hear it. 

 

A rod-knock getting oil might last a while, but I don't think a rod-knock not getting oil will. 

 

Also, if the  the engine was run dry, I would thin the heads would be toast as well, and the OP claims they're just doing a short-block swap. 

[Yellowtail]

12 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

With anything potentially engine related any garage should be checking everything which could possibly be an issue…. In this case a power issue - it could be many things. 

But they stop checking when they find the issue. 

[Woof999]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

But they stop checking when they find the issue. 

Almost right. They stopped checking when they found AN issue.

 

It was written above that the catastrophic failure would have at least a few decent warning signs to the trained ear / eye. If a main dealer is not that trained ear / eye and missed a huge problem that would lead to a terminal failure within 20km (that's the max distance the car was driven between them finishing the work and the engine letting go, including them driving the car back to us) then the dealer fell short of good advice.

 

Some differing opinions on here, which is the norm. All well and good.

[big dendrobenaes]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:26 PM, Woof999 said:

8 years. 117k km. Just had some photos sent with the sump removed. Oil is as black as a black thing and like tar.

black oil NO GOOD.....should be a nice golden colour !!!!

[alextrat1966]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

A rod-knock getting oil might last a while, but I don't think a rod-knock not getting oil will. 

Yes, surely if you top it up it will last longer than if you don't. But still the damage is already done. It's like a person with terminal cancer, no matter what treatments you do, you are only gaining time... 

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, Woof999 said:

Almost right. They stopped checking when they found AN issue.

 

It was written above that the catastrophic failure would have at least a few decent warning signs to the trained ear / eye. If a main dealer is not that trained ear / eye and missed a huge problem that would lead to a terminal failure within 20km (that's the max distance the car was driven between them finishing the work and the engine letting go, including them driving the car back to us) then the dealer fell short of good advice.

 

Some differing opinions on here, which is the norm. All well and good.

 

When an engine runs out of oil, that is to say when the level in the sump is lower than the pick-up, engine failure comes quickly, it likely would not last 20km, and you would likely not see or hear anything before the actual failure.

 

You claimed the oil light never came on, yes? Really nothing else to see, and nothing to hear until the actual failure. Perhaps a rod-knock for a minute or two, but not likely you would hear that with the windows up and the AC on.

 

If Mitsu has accepted responsibility I would let them pay for the repair.

 

[richard_smith237]

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

18 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

With anything potentially engine related any garage should be checking everything which could possibly be an issue…. In this case a power issue - it could be many things. 

But they stop checking when they find the issue. 

They changed suspension parts..... what were they checking ???

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

They changed suspension parts..... what were they checking ???

I give up, what? 

[Yellowtail]

Dude has a vehicle, knows it's way overdue for service, has a lack of power issue, takes it in for repair, but does not bother having it serviced. 

 

Even (apparently) has work done on the suspension, but still does not bother having it serviced. 

 

The OP did not say the parts were changed, only that that they were on the list.  

[Woof999]

55 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Dude has a vehicle, knows it's way overdue for service, has a lack of power issue, takes it in for repair, but does not bother having it serviced. 

 

Even (apparently) has work done on the suspension, but still does not bother having it serviced. 

 

The OP did not say the parts were changed, only that that they were on the list.  

I didn't have any work done on the suspension. There were several items on the "list of things we suggest you do". Remember that I specifically asked... is there anything else that needs to be done to the car now? and was told... no.

 

If you think that means they did a great job then all fine and dandy, but I would disagree. Dude ????

[Yellowtail]

6 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

They changed suspension parts..... what were they checking ???

See? You are wrong. 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

7 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

They changed suspension parts..... what were they checking ???

See? You are wrong. 

Fair enough...  They looked at the car and made a list of things they thought should be changed.

 

The items listed (suspension and others) go beyond looking for the cause of a power failure.

 

So.... the car went in with an engine fault... they looked at a lot of things, even suspension (ok they didn’t change the parts) and gave the Op a list....  BUT, they didnt check the oil after checking everything else.... ???  

 

That is the point....  its not that they found the fault and thus stopped looking - its that they didn’t look at all....

 

OR... They did, they drained the oil and forgot to ‘refill’ and then tried to blame the Op for the oil being empty.

The op stated he drove just 20km (about) before the engine seized.... 

 

Quote

On Friday of last week we took our SUV into the main dealer (that we have used many times) to diagnose and fix a problem with engine power under load and at speeds > 70kph (likely fuel starvation). An hour or so later we received a list of about 30 things that could do with being changed (suspension rubbers, gators and a few other bits that I can't translate), plus an air filter, fuel filter and a couple of odds and sods. At that time I asked if there was anything else that needed does immediately and was told "no".

 

[alextrat1966]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

OR... They did, they drained the oil and forgot to ‘refill’ and then tried to blame the Op for the oil being empty.

The op stated he drove just 20km (about) before the engine seized.... 

20km is way too much for an engine which has been drained to run. 

 

At this point is metal grinding metal..... it may idle for 30 minutes, but the moment you put load on the engine (driving), it will be gone within seconds. 

[alextrat1966]

On 1/19/2022 at 7:19 PM, xylophone said:

Far too many posters who will question your integrity amongst other things, and that is why I have severely reduced the number of my posts, and I have been on this and its previous site since 2005, mainly because I'm fed up with their nonsense accusations.

Sorry that people don't tell you what you would like to hear. Sometimes it just so happens that it differs from reality. 

 

Destroying your engine because you think putting petrol in the tank is all it's needed to run a car, has no forgiveness. And this comes from someone whose dad not so long ago destroyed a beautiful Mercedes OM642 engine, again for not checking the oil level... 

 

If you wanna go defensive and think people have something against you, you're only fooling yourself then, oh and your wallet! cuz she's the one becoming thinner every time you "forget" to check the oil level. 

 

Regardless of whether the dealer will/will not pay for the repairs, and regardless of whether the engine was/wasn't low on oil. I hope this serves as a lesson for OP, and he starts checking his oil at the very least once a month from now on. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by alextrat1966

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:11 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

I don't say this is what happened but TiT so anything is possible.

True story: My sister in law drives a Fortuner. She just drives it and drives it. If any lights come on, she just drives and drives. Whatever happens, she just drives and drives and drives. Eventually the engine falls apart and it's taken to the Toyota dealership. It stays there for a couple of weeks while they rebuild the engine. Last time it was ~50,000 Baht (not much damage I guess). . . She gets it back, and drives and drives and drives, and the process repeats ad infinitum. I don't understand it, I just don't understand it, but you know about Thais and red lights right?. . . she just drives and drives and drives, and drives. . . Moral of the story, don't buy a used car in Thailand.

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[OneMoreFarang]

5 hours ago, Led Lolly Yellow Lolly said:

True story: My sister in law drives a Fortuner. She just drives it and drives it. If any lights come on, she just drives and drives. Whatever happens, she just drives and drives and drives. Eventually the engine falls apart and it's taken to the Toyota dealership. It stays there for a couple of weeks while they rebuild the engine. Last time it was ~50,000 Baht (not much damage I guess). . . She gets it back, and drives and drives and drives, and the process repeats ad infinitum. I don't understand it, I just don't understand it, but you know about Thais and red lights right?. . . she just drives and drives and drives, and drives. . . Moral of the story, don't buy a used car in Thailand.

Maybe she needs a bigger red light...

As far as I know those big red lights are common in rally cars.

 

[Yellowtail]

9 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Fair enough...  They looked at the car and made a list of things they thought should be changed.

 

The items listed (suspension and others) go beyond looking for the cause of a power failure.

 

So.... the car went in with an engine fault... they looked at a lot of things, even suspension (ok they didn’t change the parts) and gave the Op a list....  BUT, they didnt check the oil after checking everything else.... ???  

We do not know that they did not check the oil.

We don't know that the oil was low

We don't know what was recommend

We don't know what was actually done

We don't know what was declined

We do know the OP takes it to the dealer for a power issue, knowing it is overdue for service and does not have it serviced.  

 

9 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

That is the point....  its not that they found the fault and thus stopped looking - its that they didn’t look at all....

 

OR... They did, they drained the oil and forgot to ‘refill’ and then tried to blame the Op for the oil being empty.

The op stated he drove just 20km (about) before the engine seized.... 

If the the OP had ordered the car serviced, and the dealership drained the oil and either left the drain-plug out or did not refill the oil, the dealership would be 100% responsible for all damages. 

 

The OP claimed the vehicle was delivered to his home after the repairs. The vehicle would not make it one kilometer with no oil. 

 

The OP claims the oil-light never came on, and that there was no noise prior to catastrophic engine failure. 

 

[transam]

8 hours ago, alextrat1966 said:

Sorry that people don't tell you what you would like to hear. Sometimes it just so happens that it differs from reality. 

 

Destroying your engine because you think putting petrol in the tank is all it's needed to run a car, has no forgiveness. And this comes from someone whose dad not so long ago destroyed a beautiful Mercedes OM642 engine, again for not checking the oil level... 

 

If you wanna go defensive and think people have something against you, you're only fooling yourself then, oh and your wallet! cuz she's the one becoming thinner every time you "forget" to check the oil level. 

 

Regardless of whether the dealer will/will not pay for the repairs, and regardless of whether the engine was/wasn't low on oil. I hope this serves as a lesson for OP, and he starts checking his oil at the very least once a month from now on. 

I think the days of checking oil levels are long gone on most modern engines. For instance, I had a Toyota Vigo 3.0 diesel for 11.5 years, though I did check the oil level at times, I never needed to top it up. Our weee runaround now, never needs topping up.

But, if an owner never has the oil changed, or there is a spot of oil on the drive, oil visible in the engine bay, then perhaps they should check it at times.

 

My point is, I doubt there are many modern engines that use oil as they did 50 years back. 

[Kwasaki]

47 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

The vehicle would not make it one kilometer with no oil. 

That's not true with today's oils it's known that modern engineo vehicles can run up to 30 mins before failing.

[Yellowtail]

51 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

That's not true with today's oils it's known that modern engineo vehicles can run up to 30 mins before failing.

Up to thirty minutes. Even it that is true, up to would mean new, cool engine, fresh synthetic oil, engine idling. 

 

Now compare that to older, poorly maintained engine with tar in the sump, heavy vehicle driven at speed. 

 

In any event, it made it through the test drive, from the dealership to the OP's home, and then the OPs drove it for something less than 20km. With no oil? I think not.

[Ralf001]

22 hours ago, big dendrobenaes said:

black oil NO GOOD.....should be a nice golden colour !!!!

Its a diesel SUV.

That clean fresh golden colour oil will be black 10 seconds after the engine has started.