Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[Bkk Brian]

Ukraine shot down 73 cruise missiles yesterday, those are the facts and a testament to the huge success of the air defense system. Collateral damage is only to be expected.

 

Russia is responsible for the massive attack and only Russia

[Mavideol]

Just now, LosLobo said:

Where have I deviated from the facts. Nothing is confirmed yet as this is only a preliminary US assessment.

 

"The missile that crashed in Poland on Tuesday, killing two people, was from a Ukrainian air-defense system, according to two senior Western officials briefed on preliminary U.S. assessments, but Poland is continuing its own investigation of the explosion."

 

Missile That Hit Poland Likely Launched by Ukraine in Air Defense, Western Officials Say - WSJ

wouldn't surprised me if Lukashenko had something to do with it, he's a Vlad proxy

[Mac Mickmanus]

31 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

cause .... who started the war = Russia, shooting missiles all over Ukraine regardless of any collateral damages

effect... innocent people being killed, neighboring countries and the entire world population being negatively affected by his madness

Yes, but the missile in question was  Ukrainian missile fired by Ukraine that hit Poland 

[rudi49jr]

50 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, but the missile in question was  Ukrainian missile fired by Ukraine that hit Poland 

A missile intended to shoot down a Russian missile. If the Russians hadn’t fired that missile at Ukraine, there would have been no need for Ukraine to fire their anti-missile missile. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

A missile intended to shoot down a Russian missile. If the Russians hadn’t fired that missile at Ukraine, there would have been no need for Ukraine to fire their anti-missile missile. 

Yes, but the missile fired into Poland was a Ukrainian missile fired by Ukraine .

  But yes,  Ukraine was firing their missile at a Russian missile 

[LosLobo]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, but the missile fired into Poland was a Ukrainian missile fired by Ukraine .

  But yes,  Ukraine was firing their missile at a Russian missile 

Obviously you must have a reason for posting.

 

Seems you are only posting to just waste others` time.

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

Obviously you must have a reason for posting.

 

Seems you are only posting to just waste others` time.

Stop trolling.

If you have nothing to say, no need to post

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Putin will say it was an accident and NATO will tell him to be more careful in the future and nothing more will come of it 

Given the alternative leads to WW3, IMO, I'm ok with that.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Lets keep to the facts .

This missile appears to be fired by Ukraine an it was a Ukrainian missile , although Putin is still responsible for the war in general 

Oh, ( if that is true ), the irony.

 

[Bkk Brian]

57 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Oh, ( if that is true ), the irony.

 

I fail to see the irony? Russia was carrying out war crimes, striking civilian infrastructure, cutting power and water, the Ukraine air defense systems did their job and it may be that a stray missile landed in Poland as a consequence. It has not yet been established as the investigation is not complete but collateral damage could certainly be a possibility.

 

Foreign Sec James Cleverly says he agrees with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg that what occurred in Poland was "not Ukraine's fault and that Russia bears the ultimate responsibility"

[BarraMarra]

Exactly Brian it was an accident the missile that hit the Russian missile was Ukrainian as our defense secretary said if Russia wasn't firing missiles into Ukraine no missiles would have hit Poland Russia is to blame because there firing missiles into Ukraine so they have to be shot down. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, but the missile in question was  Ukrainian missile fired by Ukraine that hit Poland 

The consensus seems to be that it was indeed a Ukrainian missile. Certainly Biden was on tv and he was not disagreeing with that conclusion, though he did say something about waiting and seeing.

Of course the Ukrainian president is saying it is Russian, as IMO he is desperately trying to get NATO involved in the war. So far they have resisted, and I hope they continue to do so, bar what they are already doing.

[Rimmer]

A couple of bickering posts have been removed

[Mavideol]

19 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, but the missile in question was  Ukrainian missile fired by Ukraine that hit Poland 

and Ukraine did that Be CAUSE ... turn it any way you want, still Vlad's fault

[Mavideol]

18 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, but the missile fired into Poland was a Ukrainian missile fired by Ukraine .

  But yes,  Ukraine was firing their missile at a Russian missile 

can you please stop with the But's and If's as they only exist in your mind.... Vlad started the war without any reason, thus only one side to blame and you know whom that is...., let's refresh your memory,  it's RUSSIA

[Saanim]

On 11/16/2022 at 2:45 AM, rudi49jr said:

Two Russian missiles hit NATO member Poland, killing at least two people. The sh*t may have just hit the fan…..

Apart of it that it wasn't by Russians, even one people killed is one too many. Recently, we have not heard much about civilian casualties daily (beside the military ones). However, almost every day we hear about civilian casualties from other parts of world, either by missiles or shot on the street. And in those cases there is no such enragement, nor any articles invoking. Wondering why...

     

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

Apart of it that it wasn't by Russians, even one people killed is one too many. Recently, we have not heard much about civilian casualties daily (beside the military ones). However, almost every day we hear about civilian casualties from other parts of world, either by missiles or shot on the street. And in those cases there is no such enragement, nor any articles invoking. Wondering why...

     

Well we're not in Ukraine with cruise missiles whizzing over our heads fortunately so the news on deaths is not always reported as much as it used to be but unfortunately deaths and casualties still occur daily due to Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine.

 

From 1 to 13 November 2022, OHCHR recorded 264 civilian casualties: 66 killed (17 men, 12 women, 2 girls, as well as 35 adults whose sex is yet unknown); and

198 injured (62 men, 41 women, 2 girls, 6 boys, as well as 3 children and 84 adults whose sex is yet unknown).

 

 

From 24 February 2022, when the Russian Federation’s armed attack against Ukraine started, to 13 November 2022, the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) recorded 16,631 civilian casualties in the country: 6,557 killed and 10,074 injured. 

 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/11/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-14-november-2022

 

Of course unofficial figures will be much higher.

 

As for other parts of the world, I don't know any such conflicts where so many are being killed and injured daily and this thread is about Ukraine anyway.

[rudi49jr]

Ukrainian intelligence have been listening in on phone calls Russian soldiers make to their loved ones back home. Here’s one such conversation you won’t forget in a hurry. 
 

 

[LosLobo]

Richest man in OZ pledges USD 500 million to a start a Rebuilding Ukraine Fund

 

He is just as rich as ex Aussie Murdoch though I suggest a lot kinder and more benevolent.

 

In fact, this is more than the total aid the Oz Govt has currently given. Though with a small population of only 25 million, it is still impressive.

 

Andrew Forrest pledges $744 million towards rebuilding Ukraine, aims to attract investors - ABC News

[candide]

22 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Ukrainian intelligence have been listening in on phone calls Russian soldiers make to their loved ones back home. Here’s one such conversation you won’t forget in a hurry. 
 

 

Gulp! This is really scary! 

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 hours ago, Mavideol said:

can you please stop with the But's and If's as they only exist in your mind.... Vlad started the war without any reason, thus only one side to blame and you know whom that is...., let's refresh your memory,  it's RUSSIA

I wasn't saying that Russia didn't start the war , I fully agree with that .

What I am saying is that the rocket in question was fired by Ukraine , Ukraine fired the rocket .

   (And BTW , you tell me to stop using the word "if" , when I didnt even use that word in my post ????

    Did this rocket identify itself as a Russian rocket ?

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 hours ago, Mavideol said:

and Ukraine did that Be CAUSE ... turn it any way you want, still Vlad's fault

Always is someone else fault , no one takes responsibility for their actions these days .

   NATO are furious with Ukraine , because Ukraine are denying firing that missile , NATO fully accept it was an accident , but they are furious about Ukraine's dishonesty .

   Looks like Ukraine are trying to say it was a Russian rocket and trying to drag NATO into the war , which makes it appear to be a false flag operation .

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Always is someone else fault , no one takes responsibility for their actions these days .

   NATO are furious with Ukraine , because Ukraine are denying firing that missile , NATO fully accept it was an accident , but they are furious about Ukraine's dishonesty .

   Looks like Ukraine are trying to say it was a Russian rocket and trying to drag NATO into the war , which makes it appear to be a false flag operation .

Actually its Poland that say its a Russian made rocket. The investigation is still not over, where do you get the info that NATO are furious?

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Actually its Poland that say its a Russian made rocket. The investigation is still not over, where do you get the info that NATO are furious?

Errrrm , I read it in the news .

I suppose that you want  link ?

I will go and get a link and add it to my post when I find a link 

[Mac Mickmanus]

20 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Errrrm , I read it in the news .

I suppose that you want  link ?

I will go and get a link and add it to my post when I find a link 

NATO row breaks out as Zelensky savaged for 'destructive lies' over Poland missile

 

NATO and Ukraine found themselves at odds at an urgent meeting on Wednesday, it has been revealed, as Volodymyr Zelensky said he had "no doubt" a missile that killed two people after landing in Poland near the Ukrainian border was not of Ukrainian origin. NATO, Warsaw and the US all said they believed the missile was "likely" fired by Ukraine in order to defend themselves against Russian missiles, with the alliance's secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg making clear that it was "not Ukraine's fault", as the firing of the missile was "the direct result" of Putin's invasion of the country.

But Mr Zelensky would not budge on the issue, insisting that a report he received from the incident left him certain that it was "not our missile or our missile strike".

 

 

NATO row breaks out as Zelensky savaged for 'destructive lies' over Poland missile (msn.com)

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by metisdead
Edited as per fair use policy.

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Errrrm , I read it in the news .

I suppose that you want  link ?

I will go and get a link and add it to my post when I find a link 

Good idea, claiming that NATO are furious at Ukraine's dishonesty needs substantiating

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Good idea, claiming that NATO are furious at Ukraine's dishonesty needs substantiating

I posted the link above

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

NATO row breaks out as Zelensky savaged for 'destructive lies' over Poland missile

 

NATO and Ukraine found themselves at odds at an urgent meeting on Wednesday, it has been revealed, as Volodymyr Zelensky said he had "no doubt" a missile that killed two people after landing in Poland near the Ukrainian border was not of Ukrainian origin. NATO, Warsaw and the US all said they believed the missile was "likely" fired by Ukraine in order to defend themselves against Russian missiles, with the alliance's secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg making clear that it was "not Ukraine's fault", as the firing of the missile was "the direct result" of Putin's invasion of the country.

But Mr Zelensky would not budge on the issue, insisting that a report he received from the incident left him certain that it was "not our missile or our missile strike".

His statements have reportedly irked at least one Kyiv-based diplomat from a NATO country, who told the Financial Times: "This is getting ridiculous. The Ukrainians are destroying [our] confidence in them. Nobody is blaming Ukraine and they are openly lying. This is more destructive than the missile."

 

NATO row breaks out as Zelensky savaged for 'destructive lies' over Poland missile (msn.com)

 

Thanks for an opinion piece:

Opinion by Charles Harrison

 

That quotes an unnamed Kyiv based diplomat.

 

So your claim below which is what I asked for is still unsubstantiated. (my highlights)

28 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

NATO are furious with Ukraine , because Ukraine are denying firing that missile , NATO fully accept it was an accident , but they are furious about Ukraine's dishonesty .

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Thanks for an opinion piece:

Opinion by Charles Harrison

 

That quotes an unnamed Kyiv based diplomat.

 

So your claim below which is what I asked for is still unsubstantiated.

 

Ukraine and western allies at odds over missile that exploded in Poland

 

 

President Zelenskyy disputes view of Nato, Warsaw and US that weapon was likely fired by Kyiv’s air defence forces

 

A disagreement broke out on Wednesday between Ukraine and its western allies over who launched a missile that exploded in Poland, with Nato, Warsaw and the US saying the weapon was likely fired by Kyiv’s air defence forces during a Russian attack. Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelenskyy disputed this, insisting he had “no doubt” the missile that landed in the village of Przewodów near the Ukrainian border on Tuesday afternoon, killing two people, was not a Ukrainian missile.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d417ea8f-62ee-4bb8-966b-a85a98fc6b3a

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Mac Mickmanus

[jvs]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Ukraine and western allies at odds over missile that exploded in Poland

 

 

President Zelenskyy disputes view of Nato, Warsaw and US that weapon was likely fired by Kyiv’s air defence forces

 

Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found here.
https://www.ft.com/content/d417ea8f-62ee-4bb8-966b-a85a98fc6b3a

A disagreement broke out on Wednesday between Ukraine and its western allies over who launched a missile that exploded in Poland, with Nato, Warsaw and the US saying the weapon was likely fired by Kyiv’s air defence forces during a Russian attack. Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelenskyy disputed this, insisting he had “no doubt” the missile that landed in the village of Przewodów near the Ukrainian border on Tuesday afternoon, killing two people, was not a Ukrainian missile.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d417ea8f-62ee-4bb8-966b-a85a98fc6b3a

 

So is Nato furious or are that your own words?

At odd i can understand,opinions may and will differ but in a few days the whole truth will come out.

An opinion by an unnamed official does not mean anything.