British embassies emphasize they cannot pay expat hospital bills

[grain]

On 6/11/2022 at 11:52 AM, Boomer6969 said:

This is probably enough for one stent in a government hospital. You are probably in very good health as you have no idea of the cost of health care here in Thailand.

Yes I am in very good health, and I would suggest that YOU have no idea of health care costs here in Thailand. You only missed the mark by 650,000 Bt. So perhaps in future you may want to do a little research before firing off totally inaccurate and unhelpful posts.

Piyavate Hospital

CAG + PCI (include stent) 

 

Room Type - Private

Night Stay - 2 days/1 night

Cath Lab Time - 1 Hour

Package Price - 150,000 Baht 

Remark

- Included one stent (extra stent cost 35,000 /stent)

- Included doctor fee and visiting doctor fee

- Excluded home medicine

Price : 150,000 Baht

 

 

[ThailandRyan]

Even a total knee reacement can be done for 250k here. Includes many days in the hospital, PT and the surgeon.

[Old Croc]

I just had to sign an agreement to abide by forum rules.

One rule states - 

• Refrain from quoting or linking to the Bangkok Post or Pattaya Mail

This thread seems to be based on an article from the Mail.

 

I'm definitely interested in government plans to insist on insurance for all long term extensions. 

Is this insurance subject covered elsewhere without the distraction of the British Embassy stating obvious policies regarding their citizens abroad?

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

You evidently missed it, they use an agent and don't end up purchasing the needed insurance as the agent plays the game.....They never have insurance, unless they try and do the self insured route.  The 800K in the bank was supposed to be the fix all, waiting on that to be increased to 3 million one day.

still don't get it, with agent non imm O route there's no need for insurance, usually people use an agent to avoid the 800k

[Longwood50]

On 6/9/2022 at 10:50 AM, sanuk711 said:

The Thai government has announced that, with effect from 1 September 2022, yearly retirement visas (minimum age 50), issued by embassies abroad,

will require US$3 million comprehensive medical insurance, but with a separate facility for self-insurance.

This is nothing more than a handshake "tea money" envelope from the government to the insurers.  Not any different than the requirement to have Covid insurance to enter Thailand. 

Overall, more than 14 million foreign visitors descended on Phuket in 2018. Thailand as a whole welcomed 38 million -- more than double the figure for 2010. The Public Health Ministry said unpaid bills at hospitals across the nation came to 448 million baht in a year through September 2019.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Asia-Insight/Tourism-proves-hazardous-to-Thai-hospitals-financial-health

That is 448 million baht.  In a normal year 38 million tourists come to Thailand.  That does not include the number of expatriates living her.  If there was a medical "fee" of lets say 500 baht a year to every tourist or foreign expatriate it would generate 19 billion baht.  More than 38 times the amount necessary to cover any unpaid bills.  

However that would not give the insurance companies a captive market that they can charge far far far more than 500 baht for.  

Anytime a government does something to "protect" you with.  Look for the real reason and I guarantee in this case it is not to protect the hospitals. 

[ThailandRyan]

2 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

still don't get it, with agent non imm O route there's no need for insurance, usually people use an agent to avoid the 800k

You do know there are folks here on an O-A visa that they have extended, thats the one where insurance is needed at extension time.......

[Old Croc]

11 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

This is nothing more than a handshake "tea money" envelope from the government to the insurers.  Not any different than the requirement to have Covid insurance to enter Thailand. 

Overall, more than 14 million foreign visitors descended on Phuket in 2018. Thailand as a whole welcomed 38 million -- more than double the figure for 2010. The Public Health Ministry said unpaid bills at hospitals across the nation came to 448 million baht in a year through September 2019.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Asia-Insight/Tourism-proves-hazardous-to-Thai-hospitals-financial-health

That is 448 million baht.  In a normal year 38 million tourists come to Thailand.  That does not include the number of expatriates living her.  If there was a medical "fee" of lets say 500 baht a year to every tourist or foreign expatriate it would generate 19 billion baht.  More than 38 times the amount necessary to cover any unpaid bills.  

However that would not give the insurance companies a captive market that they can charge far far far more than 500 baht for.  

Anytime a government does something to "protect" you with.  Look for the real reason and I guarantee in this case it is not to protect the hospitals. 

Anyone capable of reasonable thinking would have to conclude that those unpaid hospital bills would mainly be from the tourist sector, not long term residents. People living in the country generally can't avoid debt.

Yet Anutin's legislation insisting on Insurance, with a select few Thai companies, is centered on AO retiree visa holders!

It's hard not to conclude that it is for purposes other than hospital bad debt.

 

[scubascuba3]

24 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

You do know there are folks here on an O-A visa that they have extended, thats the one where insurance is needed at extension time.......

Let's see if there are any out there using an O-A with an agent? I'd say zero, usually the agent arranges conversion to O

[ThailandRyan]

2 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Let's see if there are any out there using an O-A with an agent? I'd say zero, usually the agent arranges conversion to O

Possibilities are endless yet you can not convert an O-A to an O without leaving the country and killing of the O-A before entering the country on a 30 day exempt and then applying for the O in country, not even an agent can get it converted in country, yet they can assist with all other needs.

[scubascuba3]

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Possibilities are endless yet you can not convert an O-A to an O without leaving the country and killing of the O-A before entering the country on a 30 day exempt and then applying for the O in country, not even an agent can get it converted in country, yet they can assist with all other needs.

Yes they can, theoretically they can't but my friend switched to the O without leaving the country, see you learnt something today

[ThailandRyan]

11 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Yes they can, theoretically they can't but my friend switched to the O without leaving the country, see you learnt something today

As I said possibilities are endless and money speaks........

[NoshowJones]

3 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

I got my 2 covid injections and 1 booster from our local govt hospital where I am registered which we're free.

The Thai doctor I am under for 4 monthly check ups doesn't try to get money from me he works for the hospital, I don't understand what you mean. 

 

Think of what the hospitals and doctors were doing with people landing at the airport who were found to be sitting near anyone on the plane at the height of the pandemic.

Also, I know someone who got very minor treatment and medicine at my local public hospital which cost him over 300 Bt, a few weeks later, for the exact same thing at a public hospital over 100 Ks away, it cost him about 90 Bt.

I am not saying all the doctors at public hospitals are money grabbers, but it would seem quite a lot of them are.

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Let's see if there are any out there using an O-A with an agent? I'd say zero, usually the agent arranges conversion to O

I know a couple of guys who are on Non-Imm OAs & pay an agent an extra 2,500 THB to get around the insurance requirements (on top of the 12,500 THB normally charged to get around the finance requirements)  

 

I've never heard of an agent being able to convert a Non-Imm OA to a Non-Imm O in-country & obviously it's been difficult for people to leave the country for the past couple of years (especially when, up until quite recently, you needed medical insurance to get back in & I've never heard of anybody being able to get around that)..

 

Of the 2, 1 guy is going to pay his agent 15K again end of this month to get his extension & then do a border run, come back on a Visa Exempt & convert to a Non-IMM O next year, the other is planning to do the border run before his extension expires in October. 

 

Fingers crossed for them (& lots of other guys) that they don't mandate Non-IMM O's have the same Health Insurance, I personally don't understand why immigration hasn't done this, which is one of the main reasons I signed up for Health Insurance whilst I was still <55 & could get a reasonably priced policy.

 

Worth mentioning that both guys come from countries (UK* & Canada) where they can get free medical treatment at home & both plan on going home if they were struck down with a costly disease or when they hit an age where they feel it's just a matter of time before they get one, both also have accident insurance so they've done their best (outside of having medical insurance) to cover themselves but if they were to suffer a stroke, heart attack etc... they would probably end up relying on the charity of family & friends or Go-Fund me. 

 

*NB technically us guys from the UK lose access to the NHS when we become Expats BUT we get it back on the day we return if we can show that we're repatriating.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Mike Teavee

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Yes they can, theoretically they can't but my friend switched to the O without leaving the country, see you learnt something today

Me too... That's the 1st time I've ever heard of anybody converting from a Non-IMM OA to a Non-IMM O in-country & conventional wisdom is to do a border run without a re-entry permit to let it expire, then come back on a Visa Exempt. 

 

Would love to know how much it cost him, I'm guessing a lot more than the usual 25K to do a VE conversion. 

 

I would hazard at guess that most Non-IMM OAs do the border bounce to move to a Non-Imm O & over the past couple of COVID years, there have been a lot more paying an agent to get around the medical insurance requirements than converting in-country. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Mike Teavee

[Don Chance]

Thailand should start by making it illegal to over charge foreigners for medical service!

 

I had blood work done in Bangkok it was almost $400 including a consultation with a young, inexperience doctor.

[scubascuba3]

6 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I know a couple of guys who are on Non-Imm OAs & pay an agent an extra 2,500 THB to get around the insurance requirements (on top of the 12,500 THB normally charged to get around the finance requirements)  

 

I've never heard of an agent being able to convert a Non-Imm OA to a Non-Imm O in-country & obviously it's been difficult for people to leave the country for the past couple of years (especially when, up until quite recently, you needed medical insurance to get back in & I've never heard of anybody being able to get around that)..

 

Of the 2, 1 guy is going to pay his agent 15K again end of this month to get his extension & then do a border run, come back on a Visa Exempt & convert to a Non-IMM O next year, the other is planning to do the border run before his extension expires in October. 

 

Fingers crossed for them (& lots of other guys) that they don't mandate Non-IMM O's have the same Health Insurance, I personally don't understand why immigration hasn't done this, which is one of the main reasons I signed up for Health Insurance whilst I was still <55 & could get a reasonably priced policy.

 

Worth mentioning that both guys come from countries (UK* & Canada) where they can get free medical treatment at home & both plan on going home if they were struck down with a costly disease or when they hit an age where they feel it's just a matter of time before they get one, both also have accident insurance so they've done their best (outside of having medical insurance) to cover themselves but if they were to suffer a stroke, heart attack etc... they would probably end up relying on the charity of family & friends or Go-Fund me. 

 

*NB technically us guys from the UK lose access to the NHS when we become Expats BUT we get it back on the day we return if we can show that we're repatriating.

I'll check with my friend, he thinks he converted to a non imm O, but possible the agent just fudged it, that's surprising as it's not legal

[scubascuba3]

3 minutes ago, Don Chance said:

Thailand should start by making it illegal to over charge foreigners for medical service!

 

I had blood work done in Bangkok it was almost $400 including a consultation with a young, inexperience doctor.

That's why people go to labs instead of hospitals, much much cheaper

[itsari]

Cant pay a livable state pension either . 

[Longwood50]

6 hours ago, Old Croc said:

Anyone capable of reasonable thinking would have to conclude that those unpaid hospital bills would mainly be from the tourist sector, not long term residents

I would agree.  I know this, if I go into a hospital the first thing they ask me for is insurance.  My neighbor who is Belgium and his healthcare insurance covers him to about 3 million Euro routinely has to pay up front at the hospitals despite them having reimbursement arrangements with the Belgium government insurer.  

One way or another the figure that "they" contend is pretty insignificant and if that truly was the concern a very modest fee imposed on all tourists and long term residents would easily cover it.  Instead the government mandate will allow insurers to gouge knowing the insurance is mandatory and who is honestly to say they will pay the hospitals.  If they don't pay the patient is still responsible. 

I suspect that there is a quid pro quo for insurance getting a juicy group of customers to pluck money from 

[Mike Teavee]

51 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

One way or another the figure that "they" contend is pretty insignificant and if that truly was the concern a very modest fee imposed on all tourists and long term residents would easily cover it

Whilst I understand the logic in what you're saying, doing that just rewards "Bad Behavior", I.e. Tourists who don't bother getting Travel Insurance / Expats who don't bother getting Health Insurance... (NB I'm not including Expats who have a problem getting health insurance, IMHO these guys should be able to get health cover or at least be able to "Officially" self insure).

 

I'm sure most tourists who visit Thailand do get travel insurance (My father is 77 & mother 72 & the only reason they limit their visits to 30 days is because that's the maximum insurance period my dad can get at his age without it costing him an arm & a leg)... Charging people a surcharge to cover the ones who don't buy insurance will just encourage people not to bother getting insurance as they'll think they're already covered. 

 

IMHO the correct thing to do is to require travel insurance as part of the criteria for entering Thailand as a Tourist, for Expats they should have better insurance options for retirees with an option for people to self insure if there's a need (the Malaysia MM2H scheme has this for retirees who genuinely cannot get health insurance for whatever reason).

[Lucky Bones]

RELAX. Fair crack of the whip.

Expats are being skinned of their wallets if they want good coverage.

The ATM is always open and g/friend has PIN.

Yes, planning is most important but we all sadly make mistakes.

[daejung]

On 6/9/2022 at 5:50 AM, sanuk711 said:

The Thai government has announced that, with effect from 1 September 2022, yearly retirement visas (minimum age 50), issued by embassies abroad,

will require US$3 million comprehensive medical insurance, but with a separate facility for self-insurance.

What about Non-O visa based on age issued at immigration ?

[Longwood50]

19 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

IMHO the correct thing to do is to require travel insurance as part of the criteria for entering Thailand as a Tourist,

Yep lets make entry into Thailand as onerous and expensive as possible.  Save the Kingdom hospitals from potentially losing 448 million baht in unpaid bills.  Oh but make no mention of the millions they likely make from foreigners who pay their bills.  

In a normal year Thailand sees 38 million tourists, who on average spend 45,580 baht.  Lose only a fraction of them because of worried about the 15 baht per tourist cost of unpaid medical bills and the net effect is lost revenue. 

You are majoring in the minors, and need to look at the big picture.  A supermarket doesn't care it loses money on some items on special if in total it gets the customer in the door and the customer spends more in total.  

[geisha]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:01 PM, Longwood50 said:

I would agree.  I know this, if I go into a hospital the first thing they ask me for is insurance.  My neighbor who is Belgium and his healthcare insurance covers him to about 3 million Euro routinely has to pay up front at the hospitals despite them having reimbursement arrangements with the Belgium government insurer.  

One way or another the figure that "they" contend is pretty insignificant and if that truly was the concern a very modest fee imposed on all tourists and long term residents would easily cover it.  Instead the government mandate will allow insurers to gouge knowing the insurance is mandatory and who is honestly to say they will pay the hospitals.  If they don't pay the patient is still responsible. 

I suspect that there is a quid pro quo for insurance getting a juicy group of customers to pluck money from 

Just make travel insurance for tourists mandatory. I personally helped 2 French guys that got barged on a jet ski by another tourist. Needless to say they were cut open from feet to thigh on one side of the body ! It was horrific. It was not their fault. They were hospitalized for emergency operations in Bangkok Phuket hospital, and I must say, the doctors probably saved their lives .They both had Platinum coverage on their C Cards. Thank God. After three weeks and various ops, they were transferred on stretcher back to France where they were hospitalized for months after.The doctors here in France said the result was amazing considering. I was there every single day in Phuket to help as they were in comas for a while , and couldn’t speak English . The bill was millions , hundreds of thousands of €.  I must say that the coordinator at the hospital was fantastic..I always had travel insurance before that, but after that experience I’ll never stop recommending it. 

[Mike Teavee]

17 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Yep lets make entry into Thailand as onerous and expensive as possible.  Save the Kingdom hospitals from potentially losing 448 million baht in unpaid bills.  Oh but make no mention of the millions they likely make from foreigners who pay their bills.  

I agree with your point that Thailand should look at the bigger picture and weigh up how much money tourism brings in before complaining about the relatively small amount they may lose in unpaid hospital bills, but if they are going to try to cover these loses,  then my point (which I made in the initial part of my post not quoted) was that it's unfair to charge everybody an additional fee when a lot of people already have insurance, some multiple times (I used to have an annual Travel Insurance policy, insurance cover from my Credit Card & corporate health insurance that covered me when I was overseas).

 

I don't think making the airlines check travel insurance at the check-in/baggage drop desk or the 10 minutes it takes to go online to purchase travel insurance is "Onerous" & it's only expensive for people who really should have it anyway (like my parents). Took 2 minutes to get quotes for a sample family of 4 (2 adults, 2 kids) & when you consider all of the other costs associated with a trip to Thailand it's probably not a deciding factor. 

 

But for me charging people who do get insurance an extra $10 ($40 in this example) to cover ones who don't is simply unfair & rewards bad behavior, most people will still buy travel insurance so instead of $250 it will now cost them $290, all because some people won't take personal responsibility for themselves & leave it to others to pay for their misfortunes.  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Mike Teavee

[Jumbo1968]

The Thai government has announced that, with effect from 1 September 2022, yearly retirement visas (minimum age 50), issued by embassies abroad,

will require US$3 million comprehensive medical insurance, but with a separate facility for self-insurance.

 

It says issued but Embassies, don’t Immigration issue Extension of Stay ?

[brewsterbudgen]

35 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

 

The Thai government has announced that, with effect from 1 September 2022, yearly retirement visas (minimum age 50), issued by embassies abroad,

will require US$3 million comprehensive medical insurance, but with a separate facility for self-insurance.

 

It says issued but Embassies, don’t Immigration issue Extension of Stay ?

Link?  Are you sure you're not referring to OA and OX long-stay visas which have always required insurance.  I've seen nothing about any change to O visas.

[Jumbo1968]

6 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Link?  Are you sure you're not referring to OA and OX long-stay visas which have always required insurance.  I've seen nothing about any change to O visas.

It was in an article on ASEAN News, I deleted it, the heading was Embassies won’t pay for hospital treatment or similar, I copied the wording from the article.

[brewsterbudgen]

22 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

It was in an article on ASEAN News, I deleted it, the heading was Embassies won’t pay for hospital treatment or similar, I copied the wording from the article.

It must have been about OA/OX visas.  If there was to be a change of that magnitude for regular O visas, it would be a top topic on this Forum!!

[Jumbo1968]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

It must have been about OA/OX visas.  If there was to be a change of that magnitude for regular O visas, it would be a top topic on this Forum!!

I agree but I copied and pasted what the article said, not OA/OX just Extension of Stay, I think if was correct there would have been a load more response.