Moving Chanot Pegs Around

[parallaxtech]

My company-owned land was purchased in 2007 and surveyed several times as others bought adjacent land.  Lately, I noticed a new group snooping around who say they bought the land to the west of mine.  They asked about the Chanot pegs as well as a copy of the title.  I showed them both but noticed that one peg had been moved forward.  I decided to visit the Land Office today, holding copies of the titles (3) and the company papers, and requested the survey team come out to verify the size of the land.  The LO wants "the minutes of the meeting."  I turned it over to my accountant/lawyer.  Has anyone requested a land survey lately?  Any advice on securing the pegs in the ground?  I have cement posts with wire around most of the property, but it seems to just get knocked down.  Please, no comments on foreign ownership of land.

[blackcab]

The Land Office asked for the meeting minutes because the land is owned by a company. The minutes express the agreed intent of the company, and this is often what the Land Office want to see before they act. This is to safeguard themselves from various factions within a company complaining that the Land Office acted without permission. It's just how it is.

 

Such meeting minutes are not extensive, and would rarely fill up more than half or one page. As such they can be prepared quickly.

 

In terms of the marker posts, the survey team will reinstate them for you in the correct position.

 

If your fence posts are being tampered with then the only permanent solution is to either install posts that cannot be knocked over by hand, or to construct a substantial concrete wall.

[parallaxtech]

BC, thanks for that helpful information!  My accountant is writing up the minutes now.  I would think that anyone buying land would check with the LO beforehand to make sure their land is unencumbered and doesn't overlap titled land.  I remember years ago about bribes being paid to the LO but haven't heard anything like that lately.

[digbeth]

You need the minutes to do anything if it's under company name, from things like opening a company bank account

it's supposed to be a paper trail, should the shareholder in the company disagree

 

In practice, you can write one yourself and only have the director sign and stamp the company seal and it's good 

[blackcab]

20 minutes ago, parallaxtech said:

BC, thanks for that helpful information!  My accountant is writing up the minutes now.  I would think that anyone buying land would check with the LO beforehand to make sure their land is unencumbered and doesn't overlap titled land.  I remember years ago about bribes being paid to the LO but haven't heard anything like that lately.

 

NS4 chanote land doesn't overlap and everyone knows it. Lesser titles can be subject to amendment. Amendment, however, isn't changing the location of the posts yourself - and everyone knows that too.

 

It's normally a case of people trying to pull a fast one and hoping that the owner will not notice. If it happens more than once ask the survey team to have a chat with your neighbour. This normally works well.

[soi3eddie]

Had a neighbouring land owner try this with our land about 15 years ago before we started to develop it (was originally rice field). Mysteriously, the concrete marker pegs could no longer be located and neighbour had planted out his land and part of ours, with oil palm trees. I thought something was amiss as trees that I thought were ours, had been chopped down. We called in the land office and they sent out survey team with GPS locators and placed in new pegs. We got about 7 metres of our land back. We then built a large embankment on that side of the property. End of issue.

 

[Old Croc]

We surveyed the main property earlier this year.  We could only locate 2 pegs from about ten that should have been there.

There were some anomalies involving previous owners. Our land is above the one in question and apparently the other owner said something like "it would be easier if we just called the top of the rise as the boundary" and moved the old pegs up or disposed of them. The boundary was found to be a couple of meters down the slope.

We've now put concrete posts all around and cemented in the ones on corners along with the pegs.

[IvorBiggun2]

Does it really matter about the markers? No, cuz they are easily moved/lost due to farming. The land papers are the most important thing along with the GPS readings. 

[MJCM]

16 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

We've now put concrete posts all around and cemented in the ones on corners along with the pegs.

+1

 

When we started building our current house, we wanted to start building the wall first, but one of the Neighbors started complaining on where we wanted to build the wall, claiming it was her land. Oke we said let's get the Land Office out, took a couple of weeks and they came and measured it and the end result was that she was totally wrong and the land she said was hers was in fact ours. (We now own her land as well, but that is another story)

 

So under supervision of the Land Office, The village chief and the Neighbors we put concrete posts on the boundary of the land near the pegs. End of discussion.

[Cake Monster]

Moving of the concrete Chanot land pegs seems to be a given for any purchaser of Land adjacent.

Similar to @soi3eddie, we also had our posts removed by a Farmer who tried to steal our land as addition land on which they could grow their crops.

Ok, it was only a couple of meters or so, but along the entire length of the property this added up to quite a few TW.

We had to pay the LO a sum of 7000 Baht for them to reinstate the posts correctly. This was about 6 Years ago now.

Now a developer has built some Houses adjacent to our property, and as far as I am able to see, has used some of the Land on the other side away from ours as land for an access Roadway.

How do I know this?,

I have a copy of the Chanot for that land as at one time, I considered purchasing it, and the Plot now does not resemble the Dimensions or shape on the Chanot.

OK ! Maybe he has stuck a deal with the Land owner, and I would like to think he has.

But here also, all the original Chanot posts were all removed including the ones for our Boundary, therefore even more hassle with the LO, but this time the Developer had to pay to reinstate our posts. 

The others are still missing.

 

[Old Croc]

22 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Does it really matter about the markers? No, cuz they are easily moved/lost due to farming. The land papers are the most important thing along with the GPS readings. 

It matters if their crop is on your property, and you are losing cash because you aren't planting up to the correct boundary.

We had someone knock down a couple of big trees that were later found to be several meters inside our place. (We didn't complain about them clearing jungle from our land!)

[Sydebolle]

The meeting of the board decides to verify the land title deeds by requesting a staff member (or a department) of the company to initiate the remeasuring request with the Land Department. 

This is to be filed together with affidavit, work permit copy (if applicable) and power of attorney and a nominal fee of a few thousand Baht. The Land Department then will invite all adjacent parties to attend/witness the Land Department's officer(s) on a date (agreed by you and the Land Department).

On the day of action, some adjacent neighbours might be there ...... or not; the finding of the Land Department is final and will be reflected in existing Land Title Deeds - if applicable ....... until someone else comes along and requests their plot to be remeasured. 

In all those plots I purchased I always had the Land Department remeasuring the property first upon which then a fence, entirely on my property, went up. Never ever had a problem with an "encroaching" neighbour again ....... tedious, time consuming but necessary. Once your neighbours know that they cannot fiddle around with you, then you're sorted! 

[crazykopite]

I had the same issue 16 years ago I went to the land office paid 3,000 baht got a receipt and a notice was published telling people that they had 30 days to make comment /claim After the 30 days was up the land office came onto the land with there computers did the full survey and yes while I was away my chanote stamps had been moved the next door neighbour at the time had basically stolen 30cm of my land width that doesn’t sound a lot but the length of the land was 65 mtr in length I know why he did it so that he could get a better sea view . Land office issued you chanote post of which they took photographs and kept for future reference needles to say my next door neighbour wasn’t to happy 

[crazykopite]

26 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

The meeting of the board decides to verify the land title deeds by requesting a staff member (or a department) of the company to initiate the remeasuring request with the Land Department. 

This is to be filed together with affidavit, work permit copy (if applicable) and power of attorney and a nominal fee of a few thousand Baht. The Land Department then will invite all adjacent parties to attend/witness the Land Department's officer(s) on a date (agreed by you and the Land Department).

On the day of action, some adjacent neighbours might be there ...... or not; the finding of the Land Department is final and will be reflected in existing Land Title Deeds - if applicable ....... until someone else comes along and requests their plot to be remeasured. 

In all those plots I purchased I always had the Land Department remeasuring the property first upon which then a fence, entirely on my property, went up. Never ever had a problem with an "encroaching" neighbour again ....... tedious, time consuming but necessary. Once your neighbours know that they cannot fiddle around with you, then you're sorted! 

Yes my land perimeter has now got concrete walls giving me total privacy from my neighbours not cheap to do but well worth it for security and privacy 

[GreasyFingers]

1 hour ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Does it really matter about the markers? No, cuz they are easily moved/lost due to farming. The land papers are the most important thing along with the GPS readings. 

Except that it is illegal to move a chanote marker post.

[IvorBiggun2]

12 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

Except that it is illegal to move a chanote marker post.

Lets get things right. They are not 'Chanote' markers. They are concrete blocks marking land boundaries. A 'Chanote' is a certificate of ownership of land. Proving someone moved a land marker post is going to be an uphill task.

[parallaxtech]

Guys, thanks for all that wonderful information.  Reading Sydbolle's comments, it sounds like this is a bigger task than I thought.  My accountant asked me to please clarify the information of purpose in minutes of meeting.  I don't want to jump through a lot of hoops just to recheck the pegs.  The neighbor's land is 5m wide sloped jungle full of boulders and old trees.  I don't see how it's useful for anything.  He said he couldn't build a house on it, but perhaps they are thinking of a road.  Shouldn't the onus be on them to make sure they are not overlapping titled land?  I gave them (farang and Thai wife) a copy of my Chanot and asked that they respect the boundaries.  The guy owns several high-end houses and plenty of land, so you would think he would be careful.  His wife is the type who would rent out her granddaughter if she could.  I'm thinking now to just leave the matter alone and see if they encroach on my land later.

[HighPriority]

14 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

Had a neighbouring land owner try this with our land about 15 years ago before we started to develop it (was originally rice field). Mysteriously, the concrete marker pegs could no longer be located and neighbour had planted out his land and part of ours, with oil palm trees. I thought something was amiss as trees that I thought were ours, had been chopped down. We called in the land office and they sent out survey team with GPS locators and placed in new pegs. We got about 7 metres of our land back. We then built a large embankment on that side of the property. End of issue.

 

Are the Palm Oil trees paying their way ?

[superal]

 I once witnessed a neighbouring farmer move a long staked fence about 1 meter into an adjacent piece of land , in order that he could make a track for access . I was telling a friend about it and he said that any boundary dispute or land purchasing is normally overseen by the Land Registry office who take stored coordinates  and use GPS . Then no arguments .  Concrete markers indicating boundaries are a guide only .

[IvorBiggun2]

6 minutes ago, superal said:

Concrete markers indicating boundaries are a guide only .

As I pointed out earlier. They should never be taken as gospel to being correct.  

[soi3eddie]

5 hours ago, HighPriority said:

Are the Palm Oil trees paying their way ?

We built up a platform of 1 Rai to build a house and garden etc. and  our remaining 9 Rai was planted with oil palm. It paid it's way for sure as a local tended it for us. We divorced some time ago so not sure what the ex-wife is doing with the land now. 

 

[Encid]

8 hours ago, MJCM said:

So under supervision of the Land Office, The village chief and the Neighbors we put concrete posts on the boundary of the land near the pegs. End of discussion.

We did the same after a dispute from our neighbour who was proved wrong in the end.

Note that all concrete footings are just inside the boundary pegs which were uncovered and verified by the Land Office.

 

This is what the wall looked like when it was complete:

 

 

And this is what the wall looks like now (5 months later):

 

 

[GreasyFingers]

7 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Lets get things right. They are not 'Chanote' markers. They are concrete blocks marking land boundaries. A 'Chanote' is a certificate of ownership of land. Proving someone moved a land marker post is going to be an uphill task.

You need to brush up on your survey marks. I deliberately said chanote markers that are the round concrete markers with the numbers stamped in them. They may be accompanied by a concrete post.

[GreasyFingers]

5 hours ago, superal said:

Concrete markers indicating boundaries are a guide only .

Those with the numbers stamped on them are put in the ground at the proper coordinates. Unless they are moved they mark the corner. Unless you are talking about the larger concrete posts that sometimes accompany them.

[IvorBiggun2]

47 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

Those with the numbers stamped on them are put in the ground at the proper coordinates.

Not true. This is one of my markers. It was definitely not coordinated by GPS in 2006 due to our land office not having GPS. Do me a favour and tell me what land title I/we have being as you seem so knowledgeable.

 

[GreasyFingers]

13 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Not true. This is one of my markers. It was definitely not coordinated by GPS in 2006 due to our land office not having GPS. Do me a favour and tell me what land title I/we have being as you seem so knowledgeable.

 

 

.

I note that you are holding it in your hand. In that location it is useless, it is supposed to be in the ground, and longer than the piece you are holding.

The Thai title system is based on coordinates. GPS has been around a lot longer than 2006.

[IvorBiggun2]

56 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

I note that you are holding it in your hand. In that location it is useless, it is supposed to be in the ground, and longer than the piece you are holding.

The Thai title system is based on coordinates. GPS has been around a lot longer than 2006.

I agree GPS has been around longer than 2006. But unfortunately my local land office didn't have it then. I picked up the top of the marker for safe keeping after it became detached through weathering and then falling off. 

"The Thai title system is based on coordinates." And where are those coordinates kept/stored, along with the land title.? The land office is the primary building followed by your own copy of the title. If you care to look at your land paper, top right hand corner, you find it. Basically the concrete markers are not a definite indication of what's what. The land office is your best bet. Not concrete markers.

Last thing did you get someone to decipher the photo I posted?  My missus couldn't so I'd appreciate anyone's assistance in that matter.

[IvorBiggun2]

Sorry I sent the wrong picture above. Try this