Israel losing global support over Gaza bombing, Biden says

[SunsetT]

Well done Benjamin Netanyahu for reigniting Antisemitism throughout the World!

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Thirty years of oppression hasn't produced any results positive for Palestinians, and the rest of the world has ignored them.

The rest of the world isn't ignoring them now. Perhaps Hamas thought sacrificing some Palestinians was better than living under occupation for ever. However, I suppose they thought the response would be like every time before, and didn't expect the wholesale destruction of Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing killing so many. By the time they realised, it was too late.

 

I don't think the Hamas terrorists cared about the consequences. They didn't believe they were going to live long anyway. It's the same mentality as a mass shooter. They think they are doing it for the greater good.

[Morch]

On 12/16/2023 at 2:58 PM, spidermike007 said:

And it should be the case, the degree to which Israel is engaging in genocide against the women and children of Gaza is completely out of proportion to anything that was necessary, or required. It appears that they simply want to cleanse the Gaza of Palestinians entirely and claim all the territory for it. The callousness and hatred being shown is intolerable. Isreal is losing credibility all over the world, and they deserve that. 

 

What 'genocide'? The one you're hyping? People tend to toss big words, more interested in their shock effect on posts than their actual accuracy, relevance or truth. Spin this any which way you want, but it's not 'genocide' in the sense that the existence of the Palestinian people is on the line, or anything remotely close to it. Could you cite anything credible supporting your 'appears like' bit? And no, I don't mean extremists saying this or that, a daft memo, or your imagination. Something concrete, please. While at it, consider that there are still Palestinians in Norther Gaza, and a whole chunk of Central Gaza Strip which the IDF simply ignored. Not exactly text book land grab tactics, but guess you know better....?

[Morch]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:26 PM, placnx said:

Biden is complicit in war crimes by supplying weapons for the indiscriminate bombing, but that's the least of his problems. He is alienating the young people and Arab Americans in key states whom he needs to be reelected. That suits Netanyahu fine, since then he can get Trump back in little over a year's time, so prolonging the war is in Netanyahu's interest. Biden fell into a trap.

 

The poster you cite was editing Biden's comment to be more truthful, in that Israel has already lost the world's sympathy for 10/7, with 3/4 of UNGA voting for ceasefire this past week. The poster was not taking Biden's comment at face value.

 

You claim Biden is 'complicit in war crimes' - this is not a fact, but your opinion. And as your posts often show, these aren't based on a whole lot more than other opinions you hold. Kinda doubt you've any legal expertise, let alone in relevant international law. But let me put it in easy to grasp terms - much of the weapons and ammunition used in committing various 'war crimes' around the world, is not home-made, but imported. To the best of my knowledge, there is no precedent to what  you claim. That is leaders of countries that supplied weapons etc. to countries committing 'war crimes' were not charged as well.

 

I don't know that Biden depends on the votes of the young ignorant people, again something you present as fact. Previously when discussing a similar issue you made such claims, then couldn't back them up with anything.

 

 

[Morch]

On 12/16/2023 at 5:23 PM, spidermike007 said:

Do you really think that the Hamas top dogs are right in the middle of Gaza right now? I'll bet you they're in Lebanon or Syria or Saudi Arabia or New York City. So who does that leave, that leaves women and children being slaughtered on a daily basis. Is that morally correct, morally bankrupt or is that genocidal? 

 

Hamas leadership is traditionally spread. There's leadership elements abroad, and there's leadership elements in the Gaza Strip. There is no actual one top leader, but more like a balance of power between several wings/bodies/factions within. As to your question, yes - the Gaza Strip Hamas leadership is, in all probability, still there. They'd be the ones who ordered the attack.

 

As for  your 'bets' - obviously no clue. How would they get to Lebanon? How would they manage the fighting from there? Saudi Arabia? Hamas is banned is KSR (not fans of the Muslim Brotherhood). New York City? Get real. You're just making things up, based on ignorance.

 

And from there, you jump to make a bogus moral accusation.

 

Hamas could open all them underground tunnels to serve as bomb shelters for the population. It does not.

Hamas went into this knowing the outcome. Goes hand in hand with stating that the death are a 'necessary sacrifice'.

[Morch]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:02 PM, tanner said:

No matter how much you ramble on you still support Netanyahus campaign of genocide, yes ?.

 

If you could show an example of a post where I supported Netanyahu, that'd be great. Otherwise, you're making stuff up.

As for the campaign - I don't think of it as Netanyahu's (that's your thing, again), and neither do I accept the 'genocide' claim - other than if you're trying to demean a belittle the term,

 

[spidermike007]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What 'genocide'? The one you're hyping? People tend to toss big words, more interested in their shock effect on posts than their actual accuracy, relevance or truth. Spin this any which way you want, but it's not 'genocide' in the sense that the existence of the Palestinian people is on the line, or anything remotely close to it. Could you cite anything credible supporting your 'appears like' bit? And no, I don't mean extremists saying this or that, a daft memo, or your imagination. Something concrete, please. While at it, consider that there are still Palestinians in Norther Gaza, and a whole chunk of Central Gaza Strip which the IDF simply ignored. Not exactly text book land grab tactics, but guess you know better....?

So, are you implying these are surgical strikes on Hamas holdouts? Then, why are thousands of women and children being slaughtered? 

[Morch]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:19 PM, Hanuman2547 said:

Biden is still approving money to be allocated to Israel for the purchase of weapons and munitions.  That in itself makes Biden guilty of war crimes when he knows that Israel will use them to kill and maim anyone in Gaza as well as the West Bank.  

 

Was there ever a case where the leader of country supplying arms used in 'war crimes' found guilty as claimed and described?

[Morch]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:21 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Those are not war crimes though , they are legitimate acts of war 

 

In your opinion.

You have nothing to support that all of the IDF's actions were legit.

Given the circumstances and scope it is not a realistic assessment.

[Morch]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:27 PM, Hanuman2547 said:

Not when you are targeting women, children, and other non-combatants.

 

Are they being 'targeted'? Specifically?

I don't think that's been demonstrated.

 

Civilians, including children and women, die in wars all the time.

Such deaths, regrettable as they are, are not necessarily 'war crimes', though.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

So, are you implying these are surgical strikes on Hamas holdouts? Then, why are thousands of women and children being slaughtered? 

 

Did I imply that?

No.

 

I also do not agree that it's either 'surgical strikes' or 'genocide'. War incorporates a whole range of military action in between.

Almost all of it not pretty.

 

Slaughtered? That's again, your loaded comment, not a fact.

Civilians are killed because war in dense urban arenas is like that.

 

Consider they were not being bombed on the morning of 7/10.

Consider Hamas went into this knowing there will be a strong reaction.

Consider Hamas does nothing to protect his own civilians.

Consider Hamas leadership opined their death to be a 'necessary sacrifice'.

[Morch]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:30 PM, ozimoron said:

 

Their best argument is that the civilians were told to leave so it's their own fault if they didn't. All good.

 

Nope, that would be you presenting things in a misleading way.

And, as usual, ignoring facts you cannot handle.

[Nick Carter icp]

8 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

So, are you implying these are surgical strikes on Hamas holdouts? Then, why are thousands of women and children being slaughtered? 

 

   Could be the Wives and Children of the Hamas guys , who live together ?

Three people all sleeping in a bed and bombs are not precise enough just to get one of those people 

 

[Morch]

On 12/17/2023 at 6:54 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Here is a poll to give Biden nightmares. This is from Harvard, not Fox or CNN.

 

https://nypost.com/2023/12/16/news/majority-of-americans-18-24-think-israel-should-be-ended-and-given-to-hamas/

A majority of young Americans said they believe Israel should “be ended and given to Hamas,” according to a shocking poll.

The survey, conducted THIS WEEK by Harvard-Harris polling, found 51% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 24 said they believed the long-term answer to the Israel-Palestinian conflict was for “Israel to be ended and given to Hamas and the Palestinians.”

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

I don't know if it gives Biden nightmares, but it should give the USA a wake up call as to the state of its education system and some prevalent social trends/structures.

 

That said, young people grow older, and hopefully wiser. Easier to see things in black and white at their age. Considering this is not replicated on other age groups, and the effect diminishing - maybe there's hope yet/

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

I don't think the Hamas terrorists cared about the consequences. They didn't believe they were going to live long anyway. It's the same mentality as a mass shooter. They think they are doing it for the greater good.

 

I think they welcome each and every casualty not belonging to their immediate families. Each one represents monetary, political and propaganda values.

As for 'not going to live long anyway' - again, nothing much to do with how Hamas leadership operates. They do advocate this 'suicidal' mentality within underlings and grunts, not so much when it comes to themselves and their families. One of them stories you tell yourself, that's all.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Thirty years of oppression hasn't produced any results positive for Palestinians, and the rest of the world has ignored them.

The rest of the world isn't ignoring them now. Perhaps Hamas thought sacrificing some Palestinians was better than living under occupation for ever. However, I suppose they thought the response would be like every time before, and didn't expect the wholesale destruction of Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing killing so many. By the time they realised, it was too late.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Maybe it's a sad testimony to the Palestinians' ability to organize, make good choices and so on - but what you describe as '30 years of oppression' are actually the closest the Palestinians got to self-rule, statehood, independence and so on. Not like they had any such before that. Nada. So in that sense, it was actually a move forward - which went wrong (for a whole lot of reasons, some to do with the Palestinians too, of course).

 

Also interesting to note that when the death toll in the Gaza Strip is mentioned in connection with Israel, terms like 'genocide', 'ethnic cleansing' 'war crimes', 'crimes against humanity' and whatnot are applied. When it comes to Hamas leadership's responsibility - 'sacrificing some Palestinians'. Some. Not too many. So that's ok, Just an honest mistake.

 

You think that the Hamas carried a mega attack on Israel, and expected 'the same as usual' in response? Are you for real?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

All Hamas has to do is release the remaining hostages, and the world will make Israel stop. But Hamas wants the war to continue for their own political reasons. Last comment I saw from Hamas about releasing the hostages, was that they would only be prepared to 'negotiate' after Israel stops and has removed its IDF from Gaza.  IMO Isarael should keep going as hard and as fast as they can until they destroy as much as possible of the Hamas people and their infrastructure.  All Hamas has to do is release the hostages and surrender and the fighting will stop - plus they must agree to face the UN criminal court for the atrocities they committed in Israel, and for the war crimes they have been commiting since then by holding hostages, and for hiding themselves and their terrorist military equipment behind civilians in a war zone. 

[placeholder]

5 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

What oppression would that be in Gaza? The Jews left in 2005.

The bottom line is that the Palestinians backed the wrong horse since 1948. Lost successive wars also by backing the losing side (Arab League etc). So they are now screwed. Better that they come to terms with it and make peace with the victor. Numerous deals were offered, but all rejected.  They need to give up the idea of returning to their previous land, because it is a non-starter.  
 

It would be a simple start to say, "OK, we give up on the idea of killing all of you".  Then some serious negotiations could take place. But until that point, they are doomed. 

Actuially, it's been revealed that Israel not only gave Qatar the go ahead to distributie 30 million dollars per month in Gaza in order to allay popular discontent against Hamas, but physically assisted in said distribution.

Not only that, it now turns out that Israel knew the source of Hamas funds and purposefully did nothing about it.

Who knows if Hamas would still be in power if the Gazans hadn't been sheltered from Hamas misrule by the Israelis?

[Nick Carter icp]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actuially, it's been revealed that Israel not only gave Qatar the go ahead to distributie 30 million dollars per month in Gaza in order to allay popular discontent against Hamas, but physically assisted in said distribution.

Not only that, it now turns out that Israel knew the source of Hamas funds and purposefully did nothing about it.

Who knows if Hamas would still be in power if the Gazans hadn't been sheltered from Hamas misrule by the Israelis?

 

   So you think that Israel should have enforced the blockade of Gaza more stringently and not allowed money into Gaza ?

   Would you like the blockade to be  lifted and also  simultaneously have the blockade more harshly enforced ?

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

All Hamas has to do is release the remaining hostages, and the world will make Israel stop. But Hamas wants the war to continue for their own political reasons. Last comment I saw from Hamas about releasing the hostages, was that they would only be prepared to 'negotiate' after Israel stops and has removed its IDF from Gaza.  IMO Isarael should keep going as hard and as fast as they can until they destroy as much as possible of the Hamas people and their infrastructure.  All Hamas has to do is release the hostages and surrender and the fighting will stop - plus they must agree to face the UN criminal court for the atrocities they committed in Israel, and for the war crimes they have been commiting since then by holding hostages, and for hiding themselves and their terrorist military equipment behind civilians in a war zone. 

 

The actual reference was not limited to Israe's actions in the Gaza Strip, but to any actions against the Palestinian people. That can be construed as whatever, if one includes every aspect of the Israeli occupation in the West Bank, for example. So it's not really so much a bargaining position, but a statement of rejection.

 

 

[simon43]

"Gaza could have been like Monaco or Dubai had it not spent its entire existence fighting Israel "

 

Well, perhaps a little exaggeration there :)

 

Gaza is a sh*t hole and the only people to blame are the Hamas leadership and every Gazan citizen that supports Hamas or allows them to stay in power.  As for the large number of civilian deaths in Gaza, that's hardly surprising when the civilians allowed Hamas to build tunnels under their homes, hospitals, schools and mosques....

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

All Hamas has to do is release the remaining hostages, and the world will make Israel stop. But Hamas wants the war to continue for their own political reasons. Last comment I saw from Hamas about releasing the hostages, was that they would only be prepared to 'negotiate' after Israel stops and has removed its IDF from Gaza.  IMO Isarael should keep going as hard and as fast as they can until they destroy as much as possible of the Hamas people and their infrastructure.  All Hamas has to do is release the hostages and surrender and the fighting will stop - plus they must agree to face the UN criminal court for the atrocities they committed in Israel, and for the war crimes they have been commiting since then by holding hostages, and for hiding themselves and their terrorist military equipment behind civilians in a war zone. 

I've read many posts divorced from reality on this forum, but that one takes top place prize, IMO.

 

plus they must agree to face the UN criminal court for the atrocities they committed in Israel, and for the war crimes they have been commiting since then by holding hostages, and for hiding themselves and their terrorist military equipment behind civilians in a war zone. 

 

UN criminal court? I know about the ICC but that isn't part of the UN.

 

Even if such an entity exists, to expect Hamas to face criminal charges without the israeli leadership also facing court charges on crimes against humanity and war crimes, is a nonsense.

 

 

[pacovl46]

18 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Thirty years of oppression hasn't produced any results positive for Palestinians, and the rest of the world has ignored them.

The rest of the world isn't ignoring them now. Perhaps Hamas thought sacrificing some Palestinians was better than living under occupation for ever. However, I suppose they thought the response would be like every time before, and didn't expect the wholesale destruction of Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing killing so many. By the time they realised, it was too late.

 Nope! They knew exactly what they were doing and that Israel was gonna retaliate hardcore, like they always do. Yeah, the world feels bad for the Palestinians, but they still condemn Hamas. They’re not gonna get what they want by continuous use of terroristic means. 

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, simon43 said:

Gaza is a sh*t hole and the only people to blame are the Hamas leadership and every Gazan citizen that supports Hamas or allows them to stay in power.  As for the large number of civilian deaths in Gaza, that's hardly surprising when the civilians allowed Hamas to build tunnels under their homes, hospitals, schools and mosques....

when the civilians allowed Hamas to build tunnels under their homes, hospitals, schools and mosques....

 

Are you <deleted> serious? Do you think they had a say in it? Do you actually know anything about the reality in Gaza? Who has the guns in Gaza?

[pacovl46]

From 1946 until 2022 the US gave Israel a total of almost 318 billion dollars. Which is almost 318 billion too much, if you ask me, considering how they behave! 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

 Nope! They knew exactly what they were doing and that Israel was gonna retaliate hardcore, like they always do. Yeah, the world feels bad for the Palestinians, but they still condemn Hamas. They’re not gonna get what they want by continuous use of terroristic means. 

The world ignored Gaza before and turned a blind eye to israel's oppression, but nobody's ignoring it anymore. The israeli crimes are being exposed and much of the world is already opposed to israel now. By the time this is over most of the world will be opposed to israel, IMO.

Whatever happens from now on, no one can say they don't know that israel commits crimes against humanity.

[pacovl46]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

The world ignored Gaza before and turned a blind eye to israel's oppression, but nobody's ignoring it anymore. The israeli crimes are being exposed and much of the world is already opposed to israel now. By the time this is over most of the world will be opposed to israel, IMO.

Whatever happens from now on, no one can say they don't know that israel commits crimes against humanity.

I truly hope so! Having said that, as long as the Palestinians run after every ball, they’ll play right into the hands of Israel, and as long as that happens they will not get the two state solution that they want. I’m not even sure if Hamas actually wants two states. I think their goal is to eradicate Israel. 

[thaibeachlovers]

Israel isn't the only entity losing support over Gaza. From the reports on Al Jazeera, Biden is losing support in a massive way. Looks like his run for POTUS will be dead long before November.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

I truly hope so! Having said that, as long as the Palestinians run after every ball, they’ll play right into the hands of Israel, and as long as that happens they will not get the two state solution that they want. I’m not even sure if Hamas actually wants two states. I think their goal is to eradicate Israel. 

No serious person that knows about the reality in the West Bank considers the 2 state solution as viable. To make it happen israel has to vacate the West Bank settlements. Do you think that will ever happen?

 

I don't know what Hamas wants overall, as rhetoric is not usually reality, but I do know that they want revenge on israel for israeli crimes against Palestinians over many decades of oppression. How could they not?

[pacovl46]

17 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No serious person that knows about the reality in the West Bank considers the 2 state solution as viable. To make it happen israel has to vacate the West Bank settlements. Do you think that will ever happen?

 

I don't know what Hamas wants overall, as rhetoric is not usually reality, but I do know that they want revenge on israel for israeli crimes against Palestinians over many decades of oppression. How could they not?

This is precisely the reason why Israel provokes them all the time, they know they’ll bite. So, if Hamas would dissolve and there would be no more terrorist attacks then they would do get the global support and then Israel would have to give in and settle for two states eventually!