Netanyahu rejects claims accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza

Morch · January 3

Just now, placeholder said:

Given that Gaza has basically been rendered uninhabitable, certainly for all 2 million of its people, the desire to survive is a powerful incentive. And who says that the opposition would oppose this "voluntary" expatriation?

Gazan are no strangers to destruction, displacement and hardships. I think people tend to think about the situation relative to their own situation, not what people down there are familiar with or the standards which they can and will adapt to. Applying your reasoning, the whole problem of Palestinian 'refugees' should have been a non-issue by now.

As for 'rendered uninhabitable', that's just one of the catchy labels. Like the rest of the tropes people use when dealing with the Gaza Strip and the situation in general. All the more so when it comes to Aid or UN agencies, vested interests and all that.

There's an Arab concept, nowadays sort of appropriated by Palestinians, called Tzumud (may appear in other forms). It pertains to the connection between people and the land. As in bearing a whole lot of hardship, but not clearing off etc. Now, a lot of the application is political and over-rated, but there is something to it - even if sometimes for more prosaic reasons (such as not actually being offered something better). Be that as it may, it's a bit of a thing. So going to Africa....no, I don't think it will be a popular option.

As for the opposition, there's little to be gained sticking in longer than necessary. Getting embroiled in this kind of nonsense, or playing stooges for Netanyahu's campaign shenanigans? I think that the two main options for exit points are either operations volume going down (presuming the hostage situation remains unresolved), or after a major hostage deal, if such materializes. Do note that no elements of this 'policy' were put to the vote or (apparently) even discussed much on government level.

I'm not opposed to an actual re-settlement offer for those interested in such, and if conditions are legit - so long as it's not coerced, forced or obviously bogus (such as the current one). But expecting the bulk of Gaza's population to emigrate? That's nonsense. Not gonna happen.

There's another, about as daft, 'policy' touted, seeking to dodge the PA's involvement (while keeping Hamas out of it, as well). In this fantasy, control over aid, rehabilitation and so on would be handed to heads of local clans, each administrating things on it's own small turf. Other than this being a nightmare to operate and sustain, it also ignores the fact that Israel tried it in the past (1970's, the West Bank) with little success.

It's not so much a 'policy' as unwilling to face reality.

placeholder · January 3

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

Gazan are no strangers to destruction, displacement and hardships. I think people tend to think about the situation relative to their own situation, not what people down there are familiar with or the standards which they can and will adapt to. Applying your reasoning, the whole problem of Palestinian 'refugees' should have been a non-issue by now.

As for 'rendered uninhabitable', that's just one of the catchy labels. Like the rest of the tropes people use when dealing with the Gaza Strip and the situation in general. All the more so when it comes to Aid or UN agencies, vested interests and all that.

There's an Arab concept, nowadays sort of appropriated by Palestinians, called Tzumud (may appear in other forms). It pertains to the connection between people and the land. As in bearing a whole lot of hardship, but not clearing off etc. Now, a lot of the application is political and over-rated, but there is something to it - even if sometimes for more prosaic reasons (such as not actually being offered something better). Be that as it may, it's a bit of a thing. So going to Africa....no, I don't think it will be a popular option.

As for the opposition, there's little to be gained sticking in longer than necessary. Getting embroiled in this kind of nonsense, or playing stooges for Netanyahu's campaign shenanigans? I think that the two main options for exit points are either operations volume going down (presuming the hostage situation remains unresolved), or after a major hostage deal, if such materializes. Do note that no elements of this 'policy' were put to the vote or (apparently) even discussed much on government level.

I'm not opposed to an actual re-settlement offer for those interested in such, and if conditions are legit - so long as it's not coerced, forced or obviously bogus (such as the current one). But expecting the bulk of Gaza's population to emigrate? That's nonsense. Not gonna happen.

There's another, about as daft, 'policy' touted, seeking to dodge the PA's involvement (while keeping Hamas out of it, as well). In this fantasy, control over aid, rehabilitation and so on would be handed to heads of local clans, each administrating things on it's own small turf. Other than this being a nightmare to operate and sustain, it also ignores the fact that Israel tried it in the past (1970's, the West Bank) with little success.

It's not so much a 'policy' as unwilling to face reality.

They definitely are strangers to destruction on this scale:

'An assessment by the U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence found that Israel dropped 29,000 weapons on Gaza in a little over two months, according to U.S. officials. By comparison, the U.S. military dropped 3,678 munitions on Iraq from 2004 to 2010, according to the U.S. Central Command.'

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-destruction-bombing-israel-aa528542

I can remember when you asked me if Israel is trying to dispossess the Palestinians, why haven't the Israelis attacked Central Gaza? Not a question that has aged well.

And there's this:

Israel-Gaza war: Half of Gaza's population is starving, warns UN

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67670679

I've no doubt the Gazans are strongly attached to their land but they are not superhuman.

Morch · January 3

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

They definitely are strangers to destruction on this scale:

'An assessment by the U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence found that Israel dropped 29,000 weapons on Gaza in a little over two months, according to U.S. officials. By comparison, the U.S. military dropped 3,678 munitions on Iraq from 2004 to 2010, according to the U.S. Central Command.'

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-destruction-bombing-israel-aa528542

I can remember when you asked me if Israel is trying to dispossess the Palestinians, why haven't the Israelis attacked Central Gaza? Not a question that has aged well.

And there's this:

Israel-Gaza war: Half of Gaza's population is starving, warns UN

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67670679

I've no doubt the Gazans are strongly attached to their land but they are not superhuman.

Repeating details about the destruction in the Gaza Strip is not addressing what I posted above.

I don't know which comment you refer to and in which context it was made.

There was nothing said about Palestinians being superhuman. I've no idea how much experience you have with actual third world living conditions, but people manage in quite extraordinary situations. Those bombastic declarations you quote have been made also much earlier in the war - I think food supplies were said about to be gone within 'days' several times by now.

Yellowtail · January 3

3 hours ago, impulse said:

From the link:

The lawsuit also claimed that since security forces were reportedly aware of the development of an unusual security situation on the night of October 6th and the early morning hours of the 7th, participants were still not sent home from the event.

"It is incomprehensible," the court wrote, "how the defendants did not order the party to be dispersed immediately."

Despite the threat of terrorist infiltration, the party was still not dispersed nor did the security response/equipment match the extremity of the situation.

Almost seems like someone wanted it to happen.

Well, we know that at least thaibeachlovers and Khun Scotty did, and they want to happen again.

Anyone that does not support the eradication of Hamas, wants it to happen again.

placeholder · January 3

8 hours ago, Morch said:

Repeating details about the destruction in the Gaza Strip is not addressing what I posted above.

I don't know which comment you refer to and in which context it was made.

There was nothing said about Palestinians being superhuman. I've no idea how much experience you have with actual third world living conditions, but people manage in quite extraordinary situations. Those bombastic declarations you quote have been made also much earlier in the war - I think food supplies were said about to be gone within 'days' several times by now.

More nonsense and ludicrous denialism from you. Here's somethingfrom Nov 7

"UN agencies such as the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) and UNICEF, and other international agencies such as the World Health Organization have deplored the situation in the territory and called for increased supplies to be transferred, but have not stated that there are shortages of critical supplies."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-theres-no-lack-of-food-water-and-humanitarian-supplies-in-gaza/

So, it hasn't been claimed several times by the responsible agencies.

Buit as time goes by and Israel allows only a fraction of food supplies to enter Gaza, what to you think is going to happen? But please, share with me the reports that say Israel is allowing adequate amounts of food to be shipped into Gaza. The only people making such claims are the Israelis. Have food prices in Gaza have rocketed because there's enough?

And by the say, you also asked back when, if the Israeli goal was to make Gaza unlivable,, why wasn't Rafah bombed? Another question of yours that hasn't aged well.

Bkk Brian · January 4

37 minutes ago, placeholder said:

More nonsense and ludicrous denialism from you. Here's somethingfrom Nov 7

"UN agencies such as the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) and UNICEF, and other international agencies such as the World Health Organization have deplored the situation in the territory and called for increased supplies to be transferred, but have not stated that there are shortages of critical supplies."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-theres-no-lack-of-food-water-and-humanitarian-supplies-in-gaza/

So, it hasn't been claimed several times by the responsible agencies.

Buit as time goes by and Israel allows only a fraction of food supplies to enter Gaza, what to you think is going to happen? But please, share with me the reports that say Israel is allowing adequate amounts of food to be shipped into Gaza. The only people making such claims are the Israelis. Have food prices in Gaza have rocketed because there's enough?

And by the say, you also asked back when, if the Israeli goal was to make Gaza unlivable,, why wasn't Rafah bombed? Another question of yours that hasn't aged well.

Buit as time goes by and Israel allows only a fraction of food supplies to enter Gaza, what to you think is going to happen?

This is just not true, Israel allows as much aid trucks including food as are delivered to get through, they are not stopping any food from getting through. The problems are not quantity but logistics and the stealing of aid by Hamas. Its not new, it was well documented in the 2014 war in Gaza about Hamas stealing food trucks to then sell them at high profit. They are doing the same now and even shooting at civilians that try to stop them.

The UN has been saying people are on the point of or are starving for weeks, where is the evidence of this? You really need to look at which UN agencies on the ground are reporting this and why. The UNRWA who are well known to be infiltrated by Hamas supporters receives a lot of this aid to its Schools and refugee centers.

Take a look at the Israel Gov Agency that is responsible for aid truck entries regards inspections etc. They have all the data and evidence.

https://govextra.gov.il/cogat/humanitarian-efforts/home/

Some images that show fresh markets etc from the above X account https://twitter.com/cogatonline

Bkk Brian · January 4

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

They definitely are strangers to destruction on this scale:

'An assessment by the U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence found that Israel dropped 29,000 weapons on Gaza in a little over two months, according to U.S. officials. By comparison, the U.S. military dropped 3,678 munitions on Iraq from 2004 to 2010, according to the U.S. Central Command.'

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-destruction-bombing-israel-aa528542

I can remember when you asked me if Israel is trying to dispossess the Palestinians, why haven't the Israelis attacked Central Gaza? Not a question that has aged well.

And there's this:

Israel-Gaza war: Half of Gaza's population is starving, warns UN

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67670679

I've no doubt the Gazans are strongly attached to their land but they are not superhuman.

From your BBC report, which is dated 10th Dec

"the WFP insists a second border crossing is now needed to meet demand."

The second border crossing has been open now for weeks, the problems are logistics with all the aid that is coming through, the UN confirms 12 of the 13 aid bottlenecks depends on the UN.

https://twitter.com/cogatonline/status/1742248597377208646

herfiehandbag · January 4

On 1/2/2024 at 1:29 PM, Bkk Brian said:

IDF masses tanks and bulldozers on Gaza beach
Seafront which used to be popular destination for Palestinians to cool down in the summer is now home to the Israeli military.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/17/idf-tanks-bulldozers-gaza-beach-hamas-israel-war/

Its a war zone, what do you expect, Gazans sunning themselves at the beach while Israel sends missiles from its ship over their heads at terrorist infrastructure?

Well yes, that is what they do expect - that Hamas can attack Israel with barbaric slaughter, and intend to do so, at it's own admission, again and again; with no consequences or reaction from Israel!

And then they whinge that the beach is spoilt!

herfiehandbag · January 4

On 1/2/2024 at 7:13 AM, Bkk Brian said:

Issued by South Africa, no surprise there, any country can refer a case to ICJ. The ICJ is not the ICC, its another UN branch with no teeth and countries tend to abide by its rulings on a case by case basis, there are no penalties that can be issued by the court if they fail to do so. That is how the US interprets each case ruling from the ICJ. A good example being the ICJ ruled that Russia should immediately end its hostilities in Ukraine; that war is getting ready to enter its second year. The UN security council could in theory enforce consequences but we've seen how that performs in this war and all others with the vetos allowed.

Besides which the bar is high for a ruling of Genocide, intent needs to be found.

This from over a month ago:

South Africa's Government Is an Unapologetic, Shameless Proxy for Hamas and Iran

A pornographic, sycophantic romance between government ministers and Hamas leaders, a warm embrace for Iran, explicit calls to attack Jews, our homes, our workplaces, our schools. We South African Jews wonder if our own government is inciting pogroms against us.

Following the slaughter of more than 1,200 Israelis, most of them civilians, by Hamas terrorists, the kidnapping of 239 hostages into Gaza, and the onset of the latest Israel-Hamas war, there has been a sharp and frightening increase in antisemitic rhetoric and threatened violence around the world. But South African Jews are confronting a far more sinister and almost unique challenge: Our government has emerged as an unapologetic, shameless proxy for Hamas and Iran.

https://archive.ph/QreGb

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-11-16/ty-article-opinion/.premium/south-africas-government-is-an-unapologetic-shameless-proxy-for-hamas-and-iran/0000018b-d7d9-dffa-adef-f7d979970000

South Africa has spoken.

Regarded by many as a failed state.

Unable to keep a power supply working.

Infrastructure in collapse.

Law and order collapsed, violent crime, larceny, rape and murder unchallenged.

A government which is mired in corruption, and has been for years.

Holding elections this year - does anyone really believe that if the African National Council lose (as seems likely) they will abide by the results?

A proxy for Iran.

placeholder · January 4

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Buit as time goes by and Israel allows only a fraction of food supplies to enter Gaza, what to you think is going to happen?

This is just not true, Israel allows as much aid trucks including food as are delivered to get through, they are not stopping any food from getting through. The problems are not quantity but logistics and the stealing of aid by Hamas. Its not new, it was well documented in the 2014 war in Gaza about Hamas stealing food trucks to then sell them at high profit. They are doing the same now and even shooting at civilians that try to stop them.

The UN has been saying people are on the point of or are starving for weeks, where is the evidence of this? You really need to look at which UN agencies on the ground are reporting this and why. The UNRWA who are well known to be infiltrated by Hamas supporters receives a lot of this aid to its Schools and refugee centers.

Take a look at the Israel Gov Agency that is responsible for aid truck entries regards inspections etc. They have all the data and evidence.

https://govextra.gov.il/cogat/humanitarian-efforts/home/

Some images that show fresh markets etc from the above X account https://twitter.com/cogatonline

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

From your BBC report, which is dated 10th Dec

"the WFP insists a second border crossing is now needed to meet demand."

The second border crossing has been open now for weeks, the problems are logistics with all the aid that is coming through, the UN confirms 12 of the 13 aid bottlenecks depends on the UN.

https://twitter.com/cogatonline/status/1742248597377208646

I would have my doubts if these reports had come from some agency connected to the Israeli government instead of an independent agency like COGAT....oh wait a minute...

The Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) implements the government's civilian policy within the territories of Judea and Samaria and towards the Gaza Strip. COGAT is responsible for implementing the civilian policy within Judea and Samaria and towards the Gaza Strip, in coordination and cooperation with officials from defense and government offices in various fields.

https://www.gov.il/en/departments/coordination-of-government-activities-in-the-territories/govil-landing-page

Funny how COGAT cites a list from the WFP without a link to source to give context but absolutely contradicts the WFP when it comes to the food situation in Gaza:

"Everyone in Gaza is hungry! Skipping meals is the norm, and each day is a desperate search for sustenance," WFP said in a post on X (formerly Twitter) on Tuesday. "People often go the entire day and night without eating. Adults go hungry so children can eat."

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/everyone-hungry-gaza-now-un-humanitarians

And here's a report from the WFP dated dec 20

Gaza on the brink as one in four people face extreme hunger

https://www.wfp.org/stories/gaza-brink-one-four-people-face-extreme-hunger

Edited January 4 by placeholder

Morch · January 4

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

More nonsense and ludicrous denialism from you. Here's somethingfrom Nov 7

"UN agencies such as the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) and UNICEF, and other international agencies such as the World Health Organization have deplored the situation in the territory and called for increased supplies to be transferred, but have not stated that there are shortages of critical supplies."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-theres-no-lack-of-food-water-and-humanitarian-supplies-in-gaza/

So, it hasn't been claimed several times by the responsible agencies.

Buit as time goes by and Israel allows only a fraction of food supplies to enter Gaza, what to you think is going to happen? But please, share with me the reports that say Israel is allowing adequate amounts of food to be shipped into Gaza. The only people making such claims are the Israelis. Have food prices in Gaza have rocketed because there's enough?

And by the say, you also asked back when, if the Israeli goal was to make Gaza unlivable,, why wasn't Rafah bombed? Another question of yours that hasn't aged well.

No, not nonsense, nor denialism - just you doing your thing. You've posted something you thought was major and important, it was addressed, and you did not get much traction. So what you do when you can't deal with the main arguments? You pick a minor issue therein, inflate it, huff and puff, post some more links, toss generalizations and false claims to cover your tracks. Same old.

Denialism? There were headlines and reports such as I mentioned since the earlier stages of this war. This was discussed more than once on past topics. Even a cursory search would find such with ease. Here a are some (which you can nitpick further, but I think the point is made regardless):

90 percent in Gaza eating less than 1 meal a day: World Food Program

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/90-percent-in-gaza-eating-less-than-1-meal-a-day-world-food-program/ar-AA1lRJRH

UN agency warns food, fresh water rapidly running out in Gaza

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-agency-warns-food-fresh-water-rapidly-running-out-gaza-2023-10-12/

Gaza to run out of food and fuel 'within days' as total siege begins

https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2023/10/10/food-supplies-in-gaza-to-run-out-within-days-as-total-siege-begins/

And so on and so forth, same for fuel, water, medicine etc. Not sure why you'd deny that there were such headlines and reports about.

Then, you simply can't help yourself and do the scarecrow argument thing. Raise a point, spin it as if I claimed something regarding it and demand I support that with links. Not very dishonest, but that's how you roll.

On top of that you now (for the second time) allege I have commented something specific, and ask me to refer to that - I have already replied that I do not know which comment you're on about, nor the context in which it was made. You do not provide any link to said post, despite request. Given the sheer volume of posts, topics and issues discussed, you are not being remotely reasonable.

Morch · January 4

21 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I would have my doubts if these reports had come from some agency connected to the Israeli government instead of an independent agency like COGAT....oh wait a minute...

The Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) implements the government's civilian policy within the territories of Judea and Samaria and towards the Gaza Strip. COGAT is responsible for implementing the civilian policy within Judea and Samaria and towards the Gaza Strip, in coordination and cooperation with officials from defense and government offices in various fields.

https://www.gov.il/en/departments/coordination-of-government-activities-in-the-territories/govil-landing-page

Funny how COGAT cites a list from the WFP without a link to source to give context but absolutely contradicts the WFP when it comes to the food situation in Gaza:

"Everyone in Gaza is hungry! Skipping meals is the norm, and each day is a desperate search for sustenance," WFP said in a post on X (formerly Twitter) on Tuesday. "People often go the entire day and night without eating. Adults go hungry so children can eat."

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/everyone-hungry-gaza-now-un-humanitarians

And here's a report from the WFP dated dec 20

Gaza on the brink as one in four people face extreme hunger

https://www.wfp.org/stories/gaza-brink-one-four-people-face-extreme-hunger

These last two links.....that's the sort of headlines and reports you denied were made when commenting on my post.

Bkk Brian · January 4

35 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I would have my doubts if these reports had come from some agency connected to the Israeli government instead of an independent agency like COGAT....oh wait a minute...

The Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) implements the government's civilian policy within the territories of Judea and Samaria and towards the Gaza Strip. COGAT is responsible for implementing the civilian policy within Judea and Samaria and towards the Gaza Strip, in coordination and cooperation with officials from defense and government offices in various fields.

https://www.gov.il/en/departments/coordination-of-government-activities-in-the-territories/govil-landing-page

Funny how COGAT cites a list from the WFP without a link to source to give context but absolutely contradicts the WFP when it comes to the food situation in Gaza:

"Everyone in Gaza is hungry! Skipping meals is the norm, and each day is a desperate search for sustenance," WFP said in a post on X (formerly Twitter) on Tuesday. "People often go the entire day and night without eating. Adults go hungry so children can eat."

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/everyone-hungry-gaza-now-un-humanitarians

And here's a report from the WFP dated dec 20

Gaza on the brink as one in four people face extreme hunger

https://www.wfp.org/stories/gaza-brink-one-four-people-face-extreme-hunger

So you missed in my post this sentence referencing COGAT

"Take a look at the Israel Gov Agency that is responsible for aid truck entries regards inspections etc. They have all the data and evidence."

You really need to read a little more of the post before insinuating this was not made explicit rather than then going on as if this was something hidden that you had to reveal.

Besides which, its direct source with data and links.

Or perhaps you prefer the UN despite:

UNRWA Misinformation on 2023 Israel/Hamas War

3. Difficulty in Distributing Aid in Gaza is Caused by Israel (@UNRWA, December 23, 2023)
UNRWA Tweet: “We are not able to distribute as much food as we should – simply because it’s a sky full of airstrikes & there’s very little supplies we’re allowed to bring in”

@JulietteTouma @RTERadio1: It’s been 10 very long weeks of brutal, brutal war in #Gaza

UN Watch Comment: This tweet directly blames Israeli airstrikes for difficulties distributing aid in Gaza. It fails to mention that Hamas actively prevents distribution of aid. Specifically the tweet omits that Hamas gunmen stole humanitarian aid as they beat the Gazans attempting to get the aid and that Hamas operatives commandeered aid trucks carrying food, water, medicine, and fuel. UNRWA tweets never name or condemn Hamas. According to a Gazan civilian, Hamas itself controls UNRWA inside Gaza and steals humanitarian supplies for itself.

https://unwatch.org/unrwa-misinformation-on-2023-israel-hamas-war/

I also notice you glossed over your BBC 10th Dec report where WFP insisted a second border crossing is now needed to meet demand.

Yet a second border crossing has been open for over 2 weeks now. What you didn't believe COGAT? Ok how about Reuters:

Aid enters Gaza through Israel's Kerem Shalom crossing for first time in war

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/aid-enters-gaza-through-israels-kerem-shalom-crossing-first-time-war-2023-12-17/

Still waiting for you to back up this claim:

"Buit as time goes by and Israel allows only a fraction of food supplies to enter Gaza, what to you think is going to happen? "

Edited January 4 by Bkk Brian

Morch · January 4

22 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I would have my doubts if these reports had come from some agency connected to the Israeli government instead of an independent agency like COGAT....oh wait a minute...

The Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) implements the government's civilian policy within the territories of Judea and Samaria and towards the Gaza Strip. COGAT is responsible for implementing the civilian policy within Judea and Samaria and towards the Gaza Strip, in coordination and cooperation with officials from defense and government offices in various fields.

https://www.gov.il/en/departments/coordination-of-government-activities-in-the-territories/govil-landing-page

Funny how COGAT cites a list from the WFP without a link to source to give context but absolutely contradicts the WFP when it comes to the food situation in Gaza:

"Everyone in Gaza is hungry! Skipping meals is the norm, and each day is a desperate search for sustenance," WFP said in a post on X (formerly Twitter) on Tuesday. "People often go the entire day and night without eating. Adults go hungry so children can eat."

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/everyone-hungry-gaza-now-un-humanitarians

And here's a report from the WFP dated dec 20

Gaza on the brink as one in four people face extreme hunger

https://www.wfp.org/stories/gaza-brink-one-four-people-face-extreme-hunger

Doubting COGAT reports is legit.

But then again, you seem to treat UN and international organizations as totally honest, forthright and beyond criticism when citing their comments.

You do not address that they have vested interests, that they have failed policies and conduct to cover up, or that for all of their decades long involvement, they can't deal with things when push comes to shove. That's without addressing the issue of Hamas interference, control and so on.

Morch · January 4

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

South Africa has spoken.

Regarded by many as a failed state.

Unable to keep a power supply working.

Infrastructure in collapse.

Law and order collapsed, violent crime, larceny, rape and murder unchallenged.

A government which is mired in corruption, and has been for years.

Holding elections this year - does anyone really believe that if the African National Council lose (as seems likely) they will abide by the results?

A proxy for Iran.

lost me at the last line.

placeholder · January 4

53 minutes ago, Morch said:

Doubting COGAT reports is legit.

But then again, you seem to treat UN and international organizations as totally honest, forthright and beyond criticism when citing their comments.

You do not address that they have vested interests, that they have failed policies and conduct to cover up, or that for all of their decades long involvement, they can't deal with things when push comes to shove. That's without addressing the issue of Hamas interference, control and so on.

You might want to read this interview in the New Yorker with the chief economist of the World Food Program. He explains how reports from Gaza are created. It's a laborious process and involves many agencies.

https://archive.ph/a5Ybu

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/gaza-is-starving

Here's a quote from him:

"I’ve been doing this for the past two decades, and I’ve been to all kinds of conflicts and all kinds of crises. And, for me, this is unprecedented because of, one, the magnitude, the scale, the entire population of a particular place; second, the severity; and, third, the speed at which this is happening, at which this has unfolded, is unprecedented. In my life, I’ve never seen anything like this in terms of severity, in terms of scale, and then in terms of speed."

rabas · January 4

14 hours ago, placeholder said:

They definitely are strangers to destruction on this scale:

'An assessment by the U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence found that Israel dropped 29,000 weapons on Gaza in a little over two months, according to U.S. officials. By comparison, the U.S. military dropped 3,678 munitions on Iraq from 2004 to 2010, according to the U.S. Central Command.'

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-destruction-bombing-israel-aa528542

I can remember when you asked me if Israel is trying to dispossess the Palestinians, why haven't the Israelis attacked Central Gaza? Not a question that has aged well.

And there's this:

Israel-Gaza war: Half of Gaza's population is starving, warns UN

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67670679

I've no doubt the Gazans are strongly attached to their land but they are not superhuman.

You compare months of continual bombing during the Gaza invasion with Iraq from 2004 - 2010.

1) You don't include the Iraq invasion! ,which was March 2003! You only quote 2004- 2010.

2) The Iraq invasion and occupation was from 2003 to 2010.

2) The main combat period in Iraq took only 26 days before Iraq fell (in 2003)

3) Multiple counties participated in the invasion, you count US dropped weapons.

4) The Iraq invasion was the worlds biggest ever tank battle, tanks don't drop bombs.

5) and [Wiki] during the 30 day invasion the US and UK dropped 29,199 bombs. [official ref]

6) More than twice the rate you quote for Gaza.

So question, who is misleading?

The paywalled WSJ article and you were unaware, or your quoting?

thaibeachlovers · January 4

9 minutes ago, rabas said:

You compare months of continual bombing during the Gaza invasion with Iraq from 2004 - 2010.

1) You don't include the Iraq invasion! ,which was March 2003! You only quote 2004- 2010.

2) The Iraq invasion and occupation was from 2003 to 2010.

2) The main combat period in Iraq took only 26 days before Iraq fell (in 2003)

3) Multiple counties participated in the invasion, you count US dropped weapons.

4) The Iraq invasion was the worlds biggest ever tank battle, tanks don't drop bombs.

5) and [Wiki] during the 30 day invasion the US and UK dropped 29,199 bombs. [official ref]

6) More than twice the rate you quote for Gaza.

So question, who is misleading?

The paywalled WSJ article and you were unaware, or your quoting?

4) The Iraq invasion was the worlds biggest ever tank battle, tanks don't drop bombs.

Do you want to rethink that? Google doesn't even mention that when "the largest tank battle in history" is searched.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-biggest-tank-battle-in-history-wasnt-at-kursk-e0c10334271

The Biggest Tank Battle in History Wasn’t at Kursk

The Battle of Brody in 1941 was bigger, and is largely unknown

Try looking it up first to avoid being corrected.

placeholder · January 4

26 minutes ago, rabas said:

You compare months of continual bombing during the Gaza invasion with Iraq from 2004 - 2010.

1) You don't include the Iraq invasion! ,which was March 2003! You only quote 2004- 2010.

2) The Iraq invasion and occupation was from 2003 to 2010.

2) The main combat period in Iraq took only 26 days before Iraq fell (in 2003)

3) Multiple counties participated in the invasion, you count US dropped weapons.

4) The Iraq invasion was the worlds biggest ever tank battle, tanks don't drop bombs.

5) and [Wiki] during the 30 day invasion the US and UK dropped 29,199 bombs. [official ref]

6) More than twice the rate you quote for Gaza.

So question, who is misleading?

The paywalled WSJ article and you were unaware, or your quoting?

Thanks for the correction.

So essentially Israeli merely dropped about the same number of bombs in 2 months on Gaza as the US did for all of Iraq in one month.

Allies provided about 9% of bombs.

During the Iraq War 62% of bombs dropped were smart.

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Magazine Documents/2003/July 2003/0703Numbers.pdf

Over a decade later, Israel actually dropped a lower percentage.

And I notice you've left uncommented on the massive destruction wreaked on Gaza.

don't know what this sentence is supposed to mean:

"The paywalled WSJ article and you were unaware, or your quoting?"

I guess it has something to do with the link and something else. Usually I remember to put an alternative link. Here's a tip so you are never thwarted again in attempting to follow WSJ links.

Copy WSJ URL. Go to archive.today. Paste URL into blank field. Press enter

Morch · January 4

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

You might want to read this interview in the New Yorker with the chief economist of the World Food Program. He explains how reports from Gaza are created. It's a laborious process and involves many agencies.

https://archive.ph/a5Ybu

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/gaza-is-starving

Here's a quote from him:

"I’ve been doing this for the past two decades, and I’ve been to all kinds of conflicts and all kinds of crises. And, for me, this is unprecedented because of, one, the magnitude, the scale, the entire population of a particular place; second, the severity; and, third, the speed at which this is happening, at which this has unfolded, is unprecedented. In my life, I’ve never seen anything like this in terms of severity, in terms of scale, and then in terms of speed."

Please decide which bogus argument you're going for and stick with it. At one point in this 'discussion' you claimed there were no such reports, now you make much of them.

rabas · January 4

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Thanks for the correction.

So essentially Israeli merely dropped about the same number of bombs in 2 months on Gaza as the US did for all of Iraq in one month.

Allies provided about 9% of bombs.

During the Iraq War 62% of bombs dropped were smart.

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Magazine Documents/2003/July 2003/0703Numbers.pdf

Over a decade later, Israel actually dropped a lower percentage.

And I notice you've left uncommented on the massive destruction wreaked on Gaza.

don't know what this sentence is supposed to mean:

"The paywalled WSJ article and you were unaware, or your quoting?"

I guess it has something to do with the link and something else. Usually I remember to put an alternative link. Here's a tip so you are never thwarted again in attempting to follow WSJ links.

Copy WSJ URL. Go to archive.today. Paste URL into blank field. Press enter

OK all is clear. I assumed it was likely the WSJ and its authors. There is far to much reporting like that nowadays. I tried the Wayback machine but all their archived copies were unreadable. archive.is finally worked.

"And I notice you've left uncommented on the massive destruction wreaked on Gaza."

Not so useful without discussing reasons and perspective. How do you prevent such things? Certainly not by ignoring parts of the story. That's often what causes them.

rabas · January 4

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

4) The Iraq invasion was the worlds biggest ever tank battle, tanks don't drop bombs.

Do you want to rethink that? Google doesn't even mention that when "the largest tank battle in history" is searched.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-biggest-tank-battle-in-history-wasnt-at-kursk-e0c10334271

The Biggest Tank Battle in History Wasn’t at Kursk

The Battle of Brody in 1941 was bigger, and is largely unknown

Try looking it up first to avoid being corrected.

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

But your deflection is correct, I misremembered the most intense tank battle, which was in the Gulf war. But the Iraq invasion was by land and also relied on tanks thus my point about bombs was correct. Other than that, you missed the entire post's meaning.

Bkk Brian · January 4

The Whitehouse opinion on this farce from South Africa:

@WhiteHouse National Security Council Spokesperson John Kirby dismisses South Africa’s accusation against Israel:

“We find this submission meritless, counterproductive, completely without any basis in fact whatsoever.”

Edited January 4 by Bkk Brian

placeholder · January 4

22 hours ago, Morch said:

Repeating details about the destruction in the Gaza Strip is not addressing what I posted above.

I don't know which comment you refer to and in which context it was made.

There was nothing said about Palestinians being superhuman. I've no idea how much experience you have with actual third world living conditions, but people manage in quite extraordinary situations. Those bombastic declarations you quote have been made also much earlier in the war - I think food supplies were said about to be gone within 'days' several times by now.

As for your statement about reports predicting the imminent exhaustion of food supplies about to be exhausted. That's about predictions. Do you understand the difference betweenreports about predictions and reports about actual conditions? It looks like you don't. Out of the 3 links you subsequently offered in a later post, 2 link to predictions. Only one of those links leads to a report on actual starvation. And my comment was about reports of actual starvation. Actual starvation. And the World Food Program report you linked is one I already cited. It's dated Dec 21.

placeholder · January 4

10 hours ago, Morch said:

These last two links.....that's the sort of headlines and reports you denied were made when commenting on my post.

Just to be clear: those last 2 links of your were about predictions. My comment was about actual starvation being reported on.

placeholder · January 4

5 hours ago, Morch said:

Please decide which bogus argument you're going for and stick with it. At one point in this 'discussion' you claimed there were no such reports, now you make much of them.

Since you have decided to harp on it. allow me to join you. My comment was about actual starvation. No reports I or apparently you could find, at least not from credible sources, until the World Food Program report dates Dec 21.

Edited January 4 by placeholder

Neeranam · January 4

23 hours ago, Morch said:

There's an Arab concept, nowadays sort of appropriated by Palestinians, called Tzumud (may appear in other forms). It pertains to the connection between people and the land. As in bearing a whole lot of hardship, but not clearing off etc. Now, a lot of the application is political and over-rated, but there is something to it - even if sometimes for more prosaic reasons (such as not actually being offered something better). Be that as it may, it's a bit of a thing. So going to Africa....no, I don't think it will be a popular option.

I think you are deliberately trying to hide something here, saying it's an 'Arab concept' and by changing the spelling.

'Sumud' is a multifaceted concept encompassing cultural, social, and political dimensions. It represents the resilience of ONLY the Palestinian people in the face of historical injustices and ongoing challenges posed by occupation and displacement. Tzumud, as you call it, is not that old, with some saying it started after the 6-day war in 1967.

coolcarer · January 4

24 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Just to be clear: those last 2 links of your were about predictions. My comment was about actual starvation being reported on.

Actual starvation is pretty easy to evidence with a few images of all the starving people. Not seen anything like that, just talk by UN agencies who employee plenty of Hamas supporters in Gaza.

Nick Carter icp · January 4

36 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Since you have decided to harp on it. allow me to join you. My comment was about actual starvation. No reports I or apparently you could find, at least not from credible sources, until the World Food Program report dates Dec 21.

Considering the size and weight of the caught Hamas guys , it will be a good few months before they risk death from starvation

Morch · January 4

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

As for your statement about reports predicting the imminent exhaustion of food supplies about to be exhausted. That's about predictions. Do you understand the difference betweenreports about predictions and reports about actual conditions? It looks like you don't. Out of the 3 links you subsequently offered in a later post, 2 link to predictions. Only one of those links leads to a report on actual starvation. And my comment was about reports of actual starvation. Actual starvation. And the World Food Program report you linked is one I already cited. It's dated Dec 21.

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Just to be clear: those last 2 links of your were about predictions. My comment was about actual starvation being reported on.

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Since you have decided to harp on it. allow me to join you. My comment was about actual starvation. No reports I or apparently you could find, at least not from credible sources, until the World Food Program report dates Dec 21.

What I'm seeing here is your usual nitpicking. Nothing more.

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