Chiang Mai Immigration Requiring Your Monthly Income?

[Confuscious]

11 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

In preparing our latest annual extension of stay based on marriage, we always submit evidence of 400K+ in the bank to meet the financial requirement.  We never use the monthly income method.  Now we were told, by an agent, that CM IM wants to also know your monthly income amount and sources.  I declined to provide that to the agent and we will see tomorrow if an IO requires this info....never have we ever been asked about my monthly income given we use the 400K+ in the bank method.

Anyone ever been asked to provide monthly income when submitting the 400K+ in the bank method?

 

And another new one; in addition to photos of us in front of the house address and in the living room, now we were told we need two more photos- one in the kitchen and one standing outside the front door...anyone having similar demands?

I had the same problem in Korat.
This year, they wanted to see a proof of income and the source of the income.
I have been told by somebody at Immigration that this was to proof that I had declard my income to the tax department.

[Confuscious]

40 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Same boat but different country. Self and Thai Wife both Citizens and we can go back anytime we want. Plan is to stay here a long time, and return when/if one of us starts getting very old/sick. Too expensive to stay here when those serious old age medical problems kick-in - which is usually in mid-late 70s, or if you are lucky not until 80s, or if you are unlucky in the 50s/60s.  When that happens and we cant really travel anymore, or play golf and enjoy Thailand and other SEAsian countries, we will be returning - or sooner if things go bad and I struggle to do annual renewals and 90 days reporting etc etc - and/or am forced to pay income taxes. 

I took already the decision and will travel back to my country soon.
Free healthcare and no more P.I.T.A with the ever changing VISA requirements.
If I would like to travel to Thailand, I will benefit from a FREE travel insurance and enter Thailand with a VOA.

[murphybridget]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Swift said:

I've had similar "made up on the spot" rules happen to me, although not recently, so do not be surprised. They seem at times to like sending people on treasure hunts and wild goose chases. They are relatively free to make up their own rules, after all it's a pretty boring job and that's all the excitement they have. I once had two immigration police officials come to my apartment to physically inspect it. Then it turned out they were two beautiful Thai ladies. When they saw my guitar collection and were surprised I picked up one and played a tune, then it was selfies all around. You could run your situation by a supervisor for clarity, I have several times had the demands and statements of lower officials reversed by superiors. Lastly, I am only speculating, but due to changes in income tax enforcement this may be the result. 

They must have thought you were part of a band tour.

[Mike Lister]

14 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

I had the same problem in Korat.
This year, they wanted to see a proof of income and the source of the income.
I have been told by somebody at Immigration that this was to proof that I had declard my income to the tax department.

That makes zero sense, are you certain about that?

 

Unless a person has assessible income, they have no need to declare anything  to the Thai Revenue. Income may be exempt under the tax treaty or it may already have been taxed in the home country, in which case, Revenue here doesn't want to know about it.

Edited March 19 by Mike Lister

[Confuscious]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That makes zero sense, are you certain about that?

 

Unless a person has assessible income, they have no need to declare anything  to the Thai Revenue.

 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

 

The extract that you've posted appears to be the Immigration requirements for a visa using the income method, which has nothing whatsoever to do with reporting income to the Thai Revenue!

[Confuscious]

26 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The extract that you've posted appears to be the Immigration requirements for a visa using the income method, which has nothing whatsoever to do with reporting income to the Thai Revenue!

 

Requirement #1:
Every officer is entitled to ask for documents outside the list if he/she deems it necessary.

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

 

Requirement #1:
Every officer is entitled to ask for documents outside the list if he/she deems it necessary.

Look, please don't quote Immigration rules to us, we're trying to get to the bottom of an issue relating to tax. You wrote:

 

"This year, they wanted to see a proof of income and the source of the income.
I have been told by somebody at Immigration that this was to proof that I had declard my income to the tax department".

 

When I asked you if you were sure you posted immigration visa rules. So what was it exactly that they asked for and what did you give them, above and beyond the things required to obtain the visa extension?

[jeffandgop]

6 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

They asked me this also last year for a marriage extension (the first one) before I knew about the new tax laws and I told them everything. I kind of regret this now but I wouldn't be comfortable lying like that on the spot without a good answer. Technically you're now "working" illegally in the country so I don't know why they would ask this knowing what the labor laws are and that you're applying for a 12 month extension.

To whom are you addressing your “working illegally” comment?

[Surasak]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Just because the UK has a 45% tax band, doesn't mean that all UK income is taxed at that rate. For example, if you import UK funds that were taxed in the UK at say 20% and the cumulative corresponding Thai tax for that category of income turns out to be 25%, you may pay an additional 5% tax in Thailand. If however your income is taxed at 45%, chances are you will not pay extra. 

Ok. I can state quite categorically that the amount of tax you pay in the UK has no baring on the amount of tax you 'could' pay in Thailand. The amount of tax to pay in Thailand is calculated on the amount of Thai Baht you transfer each year to a Thai bank. There is also a very great possibility that if one is over 65 years of age, you may pay nothing. That of course would depend on the amount transferred.

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, Confuscious said:

I had the same problem in Korat.
This year, they wanted to see a proof of income and the source of the income.
I have been told by somebody at Immigration that this was to proof that I had declard my income to the tax department.

 

Which is odd as you do that after the end of the current tax year, so nothing will have been declared for the current year, especially if it's this time of year.

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, Surasak said:

Ok. I can state quite categorically that the amount of tax you pay in the UK has no baring on the amount of tax you 'could' pay in Thailand. The amount of tax to pay in Thailand is calculated on the amount of Thai Baht you transfer each year to a Thai bank. There is also a very great possibility that if one is over 65 years of age, you may pay nothing. That of course would depend on the amount transferred.

I disagree.

 

The purpose of a Dual Tax Agreement between two countries is, amongst other things, to determine which country has primary taxation rights over certain types of income. Where that income is taxed by say the UK, the tax paid can be used to offset any tax that is due in Thailand. If the Thai rate of taxation on the income concerned, is lower than the UK, Thailand will not tax that income further. But, if the rate of UK taxation on that particular type of income is lower than Thailand, Thailand will require additional tax is paid. There is therefore a direct relationship between the tax rates and the tax paid, in both countries. 

[orchis]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The extract that you've posted appears to be the Immigration requirements for a visa using the income method, which has nothing whatsoever to do with reporting income to the Thai Revenue!

finally some sense in another "somebody told me thread".

[NorthernRyland]

1 hour ago, jeffandgop said:

To whom are you addressing your “working illegally” comment?

Myself primarily or anyone else in my position. If you're employed overseas and working remotely while living in Thailand full time you're technically "working" in Thailand. So if they want to tax you you need to volunteer your illegal working status I guess. Not sure how this is going to work out yet.

[NorthernRyland]

1 hour ago, Surasak said:

Ok. I can state quite categorically that the amount of tax you pay in the UK has no baring on the amount of tax you 'could' pay in Thailand. The amount of tax to pay in Thailand is calculated on the amount of Thai Baht you transfer each year to a Thai bank. There is also a very great possibility that if one is over 65 years of age, you may pay nothing. That of course would depend on the amount transferred.

You could be a high earner or have investment income and even if you bring in 10k baht you'll be charged for the difference in tax rates, up to ~35% in Thailand. That's entire point, they want your money and if they know you're earning a lot they'll take as much as they can. It's just a crass money grab in the end.

[couchpotato]

3 hours ago, Confuscious said:

I had the same problem in Korat.
This year, they wanted to see a proof of income and the source of the income.
I have been told by somebody at Immigration that this was to proof that I had declard my income to the tax department.

Rubbish.

 

[bg53]

30 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

If you're employed overseas and working remotely while living in Thailand full time you're technically "working" in Thailand. So if they want to tax you you need to volunteer your illegal working status I guess. Not sure how this is going to work out yet.

 

Please don't muddy the discussion.

 

Personal income tax is not directly related to employment or labor laws.

 

Let's keep the discussion to CM Immigration office, and to what the IOs now want and how to deal with it.

 

 

[NorthernRyland]

8 minutes ago, bg53 said:

 

Please don't muddy the discussion.

 

Personal income tax is not directly related to employment or labor laws.

 

Let's keep the discussion to CM Immigration office, and to what the IOs now want and how to deal with it.

 

 

Fair enough, I'm just saying maybe now is not the time to reveal you're working remotely and disclose income to immigration. CM does ask this for marriage extensions so best to keep it hidden as best as possible.

[jeffandgop]

7 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Fair enough, I'm just saying maybe now is not the time to reveal you're working remotely and disclose income to immigration. CM does ask this for marriage extensions so best to keep it hidden as best as possible.

So you were asked during applying for your annual extension at CM Imm about details of your the monthly income- amount(s) & source(s) and you were using the 400K+ money in the bank method and not the monthly income method?

[Presnock]

13 hours ago, Surasak said:

If you are over 65 yrs of age and ALL your income is taxed before receipt, you do NOT have to pay tax in Thailand. If you go to your local tax office to gain a tax ID PIN, you will be in the system and have to complete a tax return EVERY YEAR. If you don't have to, DON'T DO IT.

actually, check out the Thai Revenue Department rules about obtaining a Tax ID number - it says that one should obtain said tax number within 60 days of remitting assessible income into Thailand...key word here is assessible of course.  Read and be informed about local regulations that could affect any ex-pats be it monetarily or something else entirely as immigration has reportedly been told to scrutinize more closely all the foreigners.  Look at the news since the Swiss kicker appeared and the regular police and -immigration police seem to be really following this instruction and you will note ex-pats of many nations are now being caught up

for "crimes".  Have a great day!  Stay safe!

[rumak]

38 minutes ago, jeffandgop said:

So you were asked during applying for your annual extension at CM Imm about details of your the monthly income- amount(s) & source(s) and you were using the 400K+ money in the bank method and not the monthly income method?

I rarely get involved with the assorted issues people have at CM immig...... (as you can see it turns into a real circus. the comments.  and everyone is "an expert" ) 

but...... here is my experience as of 2 months ago.   I am on retirement extensions, and have fixed account which i leave untouched ,  for years now .  NEVER an issue or question.....BUT THIS YEAR , even with an appointment, they wanted me to go first to the  blank blank guy at the window at ground level .  He looked at my papers , which are same as always , and then hits me with the Bull that i need to go to bank and get a record .  Trying to talk to him was useless so i did not argue ....but i went upstairs and asked at info to speak to an "officer" .  Talking to a "helper" will not work.  An officer came over and in polite talk I said that i use a fixed account (showed my book, she sees my balance remains the same) and she told me i do not need any "other"  info or form. 

The next day when i went to my appointed time the attending officer , different than who i asked the day before, started to talk about the bank form ( no, not the letter we always have to bring about proof of funds) .... and once again i say it is not needed.  The MAN who presided confirmed this and that was that .  I even asked for the form the guy below had talked about and the presiding officer said "NOT NEEDED" .    I left it at that.  

note:  i speak pretty good thai,  do not raise my voice (but i might have shown a bit annoyance .  very hard not to as the blood pressure raises  haha) .    Anyways ..... the guy on ground level seems to refuse to accept what i just relayed here concerning people using money in the bank method .  (and probably many agents do not understand it either)

[Confuscious]

13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The extract that you've posted appears to be the Immigration requirements for a visa using the income method, which has nothing whatsoever to do with reporting income to the Thai Revenue!

 

The attached document is a NEW DOCUMENT and ask CLEARLY in #2 about my monthly income and where it comes from.
This document was not required last year.
That's the end of this discussion for me.
 

[earlinclaifornia]

4 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

 

The attached document is a NEW DOCUMENT and ask CLEARLY in #2 about my monthly income and where it comes from.
This document was not required last year.
That's the end of this discussion for me.
 

I am also from CM. At first I was asked to show proof of income source and amount. Then the SSA income verification letter was always returned back as not needed.

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

 

The attached document is a NEW DOCUMENT and ask CLEARLY in #2 about my monthly income and where it comes from.
This document was not required last year.
That's the end of this discussion for me.
 

Thank you, now we're getting somewhere!

 

That is not an official government form, which as I recall you said was given to you by the agent, the form does not show a form number on it as all official forms do. The design and contents of the document suggest the form is part of Immigration's "greater scrutiny" campaign, rather than anything that Revenue might use. The question is now, whether this is a local office, one off or is it more wide spread.

[rumak]

33 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Thank you, now we're getting somewhere!

 

That is not an official government form, which as I recall you said was given to you by the agent, the form does not show a form number on it as all official forms do. The design and contents of the document suggest the form is part of Immigration's "greater scrutiny" campaign, rather than anything that Revenue might use. The question is now, whether this is a local office, one off or is it more wide spread.

What is widespread (and worldwide) is the slow but sure increase in billionaires ,  the ongoing controls being implemented on "ordinary" workers/citizens,  and the sands of freedom being washed away into the ocean of one world order. 

Every new dictate and demand to make us show every detail of our lives , as "they"  pass by go and collect money from the masses does not go down well with me .  But, just my personal feeling, of course.

Sorry for adding this off topic comment..... but i did give a pertinent one previously   🙂

Edited March 20 by rumak

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, rumak said:

What is widespread (and worldwide) is the slow but sure increase in billionaires ,  the ongoing controls being implemented on "ordinary" workers/citizens,  and the sands of freedom being washed away into the ocean of one world order. 

Every new dictate and demand to make us show every detail of our lives , as "they"  pass by go and collect money from the masses does not go down well with me .  But, just my personal feeling, of course.

Sorry for adding this off topic comment..... but i did give a pertinent one previously   🙂

Yes, well, it certainly sets a bad precedent, declaring all our finances to a department that is not known for its honesty and integrity.....that's concerning. I'm comfortable letting Revenue have details of my assets because finance is their job, the Police however is a different matter.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 hours ago, Confuscious said:

I took already the decision and will travel back to my country soon.
Free healthcare and no more P.I.T.A with the ever changing VISA requirements.
If I would like to travel to Thailand, I will benefit from a FREE travel insurance and enter Thailand with a VOA.

I completely understand and agree with that as a valid strategy - I do not see things getting any better for Expats in the future. In fact it will probably get harder for Expats as things fall apart more, due to the true state of the Thai economy being revealed (like China's currently is).  And if/when MFP get elected in the future, things will get even worse - they would be a social progressive Govt and they always tax people more to pay for all their social progressive Govt programs. PT promised 10K per Thai and they are struggling to do that - MFP have promised social welfare payments, and things like free housing for the poor, and all sorts of other 'progressive' programs.

 

We have the plan of moving back in the future (Plan B) - plus we also have a Plan C.  Plan C is to move to a nearby country (Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia) and from there travel regularly to Thailand as you plan to do - VOA being one option and also Visa for 'Visiitng Family' - making sure we never stay more than 179 days total in Thailand.  I am currently evaluating all the retirement options available for those other countries - and I note that both Philippines and Malaysia are also taxing foreign income, but they have both stated that they will not tax the  foreign remittances of retired Expats. In a variation of Plan C , we might end up staying 3-6 months in a few countries - so that we never become a tax resident of any of them. 

[bg53]

On 3/19/2024 at 6:51 AM, jeffandgop said:

we will see tomorrow if an IO requires this info....

 

What happened at the office?

[jeffandgop]

23 hours ago, rumak said:

I rarely get involved with the assorted issues people have at CM immig...... (as you can see it turns into a real circus. the comments.  and everyone is "an expert" ) 

but...... here is my experience as of 2 months ago.   I am on retirement extensions, and have fixed account which i leave untouched ,  for years now .  NEVER an issue or question.....BUT THIS YEAR , even with an appointment, they wanted me to go first to the  blank blank guy at the window at ground level .  He looked at my papers , which are same as always , and then hits me with the Bull that i need to go to bank and get a record .  Trying to talk to him was useless so i did not argue ....but i went upstairs and asked at info to speak to an "officer" .  Talking to a "helper" will not work.  An officer came over and in polite talk I said that i use a fixed account (showed my book, she sees my balance remains the same) and she told me i do not need any "other"  info or form. 

The next day when i went to my appointed time the attending officer , different than who i asked the day before, started to talk about the bank form ( no, not the letter we always have to bring about proof of funds) .... and once again i say it is not needed.  The MAN who presided confirmed this and that was that .  I even asked for the form the guy below had talked about and the presiding officer said "NOT NEEDED" .    I left it at that.  

note:  i speak pretty good thai,  do not raise my voice (but i might have shown a bit annoyance .  very hard not to as the blood pressure raises  haha) .    Anyways ..... the guy on ground level seems to refuse to accept what i just relayed here concerning people using money in the bank method .  (and probably many agents do not understand it either)

So your response is that you had no similar experience whatsoever as requested in my question.

[jeffandgop]

After signing a few pages of the routine docs supporting my application, I was escorted to a counter where an IO, with the form the agent showed me the day before at the agency's office in front of the IO, asked if I had any income beyond the money in the fixed account which she knew I was using for my financials...she said that it was for info only and no verification or sources of that income was being asked- just an estimated monthly amount. I gave the IO an amount purposely greater than the minimum monthly income requirement of 65K for those that use the monthly income method. The IO emphasized the information being requested was not mandatory for the extension and I could decline and assert no other income; she was prepared to delete what I had already told her.

 

In the end I saw this as no harm...the info is only info and is not auditable.  The conversation was very polite and I felt comfortable.

 

I want to stress I was told I did not have to provide any info of income beyond the fix deposit if I wished.