UK pensions

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

9 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Yet choose to live in a country that has neither?

Life has many apparent contradictions. I used to live in Saudi Arabia but it would clearly be erroneous to deduce from this that I believed in beheading.

"I think therefore I am" but from this is does not follow that " I'm pink therefore I'm spam".

Edited February 26, 2018 by Rajab Al Zarahni

[Daffy D]

18 hours ago, Golden Triangle said:

I can apply for my state pension around about June, do I use my daughters address or come clean and tell them I am living in a country where it will be frozen from day 1

Why would you involve your own daughter in your scheem to defraud the Pension Service and get her involved in a possible fraud case - criminal record? 

 

Very bad example to set for just a few extra pounds that you might get.

 

If this is the genneral attitude of the average British citzen it's no wonder that there are so many benift fraud cases. Parents theaching their chidren....

[Oxx]

39 minutes ago, Daffy D said:

Why would you involve your own daughter in your scheem to defraud the Pension Service and get her involved in a possible fraud case - criminal record? 

 

Very bad example to set for just a few extra pounds that you might get.

 

If this is the genneral attitude of the average British citzen it's no wonder that there are so many benift fraud cases. Parents theaching their chidren....

 

I'm not sure whether to applaud your attitude to the rule of law, or denigrate your abuse of English.

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, Daffy D said:

Why would you involve your own daughter in your scheem to defraud the Pension Service and get her involved in a possible fraud case - criminal record? 

 

Very bad example to set for just a few extra pounds that you might get.

 

If this is the genneral attitude of the average British citzen it's no wonder that there are so many benift fraud cases. Parents theaching their chidren....

- His daughter technically doesn't need to know.

- The real fraud is the manner in which HMG deliberately and successfully deceived it's workforce....for decades!

- As sure as the Berlin wall fell this nonsense will inevitably follow.

Edited February 26, 2018 by evadgib

[MaeJoMTB]

12 hours ago, transam said:

My thought is that we are now in the hi-tech digital age, doesn't matter where you turn tech is taking over, so l reckon it won't be long before all the dots will join up to reveal fraudsters not following the rules regarding pension payout..As it is now ones passport tells all if there was a tech link, which l think will happen in the future..

It would need to be an age where the Thai authorities communicated digitally with the rest of the world.

As the British immigration only scan passports one way (I forget if it was out or in), and have no idea who is in the country, and don't communicate with the EU (not a problem in the future 'cos we won't be in the EU), I don't think they would have a hope in hell of tracking you.

And they would not only need to know you were out of the UK, but which country you were in (and for how long) to run their 'no increase' scam, after they have defined legally 'permanently living outside the UK'

[MaeJoMTB]

14 hours ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

Life has many apparent contradictions. I used to live in Saudi Arabia but it would clearly be erroneous to deduce from this that I believed in beheading.

"I think therefore I am" but from this is does not follow that " I'm pink therefore I'm spam".

False logic!

Nobody 'chooses to live in Saudi Arabia' ....... it's place you go to make money in a hurry, so you can retire somewhere nice.

Even the Saudis don't choose to live there.

[MaeJoMTB]

14 hours ago, Daffy D said:

Why would you involve your own daughter in your scheem to defraud the Pension Service and get her involved in a possible fraud case - criminal record? 

Fairly safe bet that his daughter won't be the first person in the world convicted of fraud for him failing to refuse a pension increase.

Engage brain before typing/?

[ubonjoe]

A off topic inflammatory post and the expected replies to it have been removed.

[transam]

12 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

It would need to be an age where the Thai authorities communicated digitally with the rest of the world.

As the British immigration only scan passports one way (I forget if it was out or in), and have no idea who is in the country, and don't communicate with the EU (not a problem in the future 'cos we won't be in the EU), I don't think they would have a hope in hell of tracking you.

And they would not only need to know you were out of the UK, but which country you were in (and for how long) to run their 'no increase' scam, after they have defined legally 'permanently living outside the UK'

My point was things are moving on via tech, l can see no problem with exit stamps from wherever being noted or scanned. Passports now have a chip in them and am sure that tech will be improved on to join the dots up.

There are blokes in LOS claiming they don't live in LOS yet have LOS retirement extensions in their PP.....That is crazy stuff...

[MaeJoMTB]

21 minutes ago, transam said:

There are blokes in LOS claiming they don't live in LOS yet have LOS retirement extensions in their PP.....That is crazy stuff...

I don't believe a retirement extension is proof of anything, except frequent trips abroad.

 

IN fact it might be evidence you don't live in Thailand as it has 'Non Immigrant' written on it.

Edited February 27, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[transam]

18 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

I don't believe a retirement extension is proof of anything, except frequent trips abroad.

 

IN fact it might be evidence you don't live in Thailand as it has 'Non Immigrant' written on it.

A one year LOS retirement visa or extension of stamp tells the UK (if they look) that you have retired in LOS and the in and out stamps show the period spent in LOS..Even a multi-O shows via PP stamps what one has been up too..

[MaeJoMTB]

28 minutes ago, transam said:

A one year LOS retirement visa or extension of stamp tells the UK (if they look) that you have retired in LOS and the in and out stamps show the period spent in LOS..Even a multi-O shows via PP stamps what one has been up too..

I never show my passport to UK officials, so the stamps in it don't matter.

[transam]

Just now, MaeJoMTB said:

I never show my passport to UK officials, so the stamps in it don't matter.

That is your situation and perhaps not the same for many folk in LOS..

 

For instance, if you renew a PP in BKK they want a printout of every page of your PP to SEND TO THE UK....At BKK they check every page has been copied, well they did with mine.

 

So, the info "can" be their if they want to join dots up...But I am sure the tech will join up the dots in the near future..

[MaeJoMTB]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

So, the info "can" be their if they want to join dots up...But I am sure the tech will join up the dots in the near future..

My passport lasts until I'm 71 ...... suspect I won't need another.

Technology missed me!

[transam]

6 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

My passport lasts until I'm 71 ...... suspect I won't need another.

Technology missed me!

As I use a multi-O my PP lasts about 5 years after they stick all those full page "hop" visas, it seems you are doing the same so it will not last the 10 years..

 

As we are going round in circles l will contact DWP personally and ask a few questions regarding points put forward here..Give me a few days..

[Kadilo]

4 hours ago, transam said:

A one year LOS retirement visa or extension of stamp tells the UK (if they look) that you have retired in LOS .....

 

Does it? I thought all it did was to show that you qualify for a retirement visa under Thai rules ?

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

Does it? I thought all it did was to show that you qualify for a retirement visa under Thai rules ?

No, it shows you have been given the right to retire in LOS as you have jumped through a couple of hurdles and been given permission to retire in LOS.....

[Kadilo]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

No, it shows you have been given the right to retire in LOS as you have jumped through a couple of hurdles and been given permission to retire in LOS.....

Given permission and actually retired arent the same thing so it doesn't tell the UK you have actually retired there. 

Ps I think I'm missing your point, apologies. 

[transam]

1 hour ago, Kadilo said:

Given permission and actually retired arent the same thing so it doesn't tell the UK you have actually retired there. 

Ps I think I'm missing your point, apologies. 

If someone has retired and using an address in the UK or any "OK" place to get his pension with top ups etc but his PP shows he has gone through the LOS system to get a visa called a retirement visa where his pension is locked, then l think a "light" will come on with those who's job it is to suss fraudsters..

[Golden Triangle]

7 hours ago, transam said:

As I use a multi-O my PP lasts about 5 years after they stick all those full page "hop" visas, it seems you are doing the same so it will not last the 10 years..

 

As we are going round in circles l will contact DWP personally and ask a few questions regarding points put forward here..Give me a few days..

Trans, I look forward to your report after you have spoken to the pension peeps,  by all accounts they are very accommodating with the info that they provide, TBH I don't think that it will be very long until DWP/Benefits department/Border control/ Immigration are all joined at the hip electronically, the data flows and Red flags will be flashing up all over the place in the not too distant future.

 

As an aside to another post on this thread about the Police and the technology available to them these days (it may have been you, I'm not sure) I worked for a lot of years as a Police National Computer (PNC) operator prior to retiring here, I can confirm that just the passing over the radio or even mobile phone the registration number of a vehicle will show who is the registered keeper and address of that vehicle, whether it has insurance and who is insured to drive the vehicle, the date and validity of it's last MoT test and a whole host of other data.

 

The police can actually sit in a lay-by somewhere switch on the Automatic Number Plate Recognition system (ANPR) and just sit back and wait for a hit, this tool is also available to the Department for Work and Pensions DWP, Benefits office, Her majesty's Revenue & Customs HMRC, and of course all the sneaky beaky organisations that like to remain below the Radar.

 

So if the DWP suspects that Joe Bloggs is cheating they can obtain access to the system to track that individuals movements, how do you think benefit cheats get caught, it isn't through sheer luck I can assure you.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kadilo]

13 hours ago, transam said:

If someone has retired and using an address in the UK or any "OK" place to get his pension with top ups etc but his PP shows he has gone through the LOS system to get a visa called a retirement visa where his pension is locked, then l think a "light" will come on with those who's job it is to suss fraudsters..

Gotcha

[Eff1n2ret]

I think a lot of words are being wasted on assumptions about sundry Government databases being linked and the ability of the DWP or other Government departments to track our whereabouts. Undoubtedly, if they really wanted to, they could find out where any of us are, or what we are doing.

But although the question of how or whether to avoid revealing one's expat status looms large on an expat forum, it's pretty small potatoes for the DWP. If they were bothered about it, we would have heard a lot more about it. Failing to inform them that you are living abroad is pretty much the same as a woman failing to report that she has a new live-in partner or a person with a temporary disability who throws away his crutches, but both of these continue to claim the benefits. All these are failures to report a change in circumstances, but while you can read every week of cases such as the latter two scenarios, I've never read a news item about an expat being prosecuted for claiming a "non-frozen" pension to which he wasn't entitled.

The difference, then, is that cases like the woman and the ex-cripple are  occurring on a massive scale and frequently involve 10s of thousands of pounds, while the number seeking to defraud the pension regulation that irks us all is much smaller, and the amount involved is also relatively small. The DWP has limited resources to pursue benefit fraudsters, so as long as the pension fraudsters remain off their radar, nothing much is going to happen. The risk is that one day someone will do a report extrapolating the amount that is wrongfully paid out and will be instructed to look into it. Then there will be a day of reckoning. 

[i claudius]

As was just said i should imagine the amounts any pensioner claims are quite small ,a few quid a week and even if he lives quite a long time it will not amount to much and then he would have to be dragged back to the UK( where his pension will be upgraded straight away and if he has no place to live accomodated untill the trial ) not forgeting these will be old people on trial so not great news stories for a few grand at most. Whereas the BENIFIT cheats are usually much younger already in the UK and have claimed very large sums of money.

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[Eff1n2ret]

So in the circumstances, writing to the DWP and asking questions about the matter just risks waking the dog.

[transam]

8 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

So in the circumstances, writing to the DWP and asking questions about the matter just risks waking the dog.

I reckon they already know about the dog, but their limited resources prevent a blitz..

[evadgib]

[nontabury]

21 hours ago, transam said:

If someone has retired and using an address in the UK or any "OK" place to get his pension with top ups etc but his PP shows he has gone through the LOS system to get a visa called a retirement visa where his pension is locked, then l think a "light" will come on with those who's job it is to suss fraudsters..

For 1/ when would the DWP ask to see your passport? Are they going to ask ALL pensioners to take their passports in to be viewed.

2/ I now obtain the full upgraded pension, as I now live in the UK. Yet I still have a retirement visa in my PP,  and furthermore I intend to renew on my visits back to Thailand.

[transam]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

For 1/ when would the DWP ask to see your passport? Are they going to ask ALL pensioners to take their passports in to be viewed.

2/ I now obtain the full upgraded pension, as I now live in the UK. Yet I still have a retirement visa in my PP,  and furthermore I intend to renew on my visits back to Thailand.

1. I don't know because I am not anything to do with DWP fraud investigators...

 

2. Your in and out stuff tells all about the 90 days out of the UK to places that are not covered for upgrades..

 

 

A pensioner must tell the DWP if they go into prison or hospital in the UK because their pension payment maybe different....The rules are there..

[evadgib]

Wrong tree trans; they're not there yet and I can't see it for several years to come.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Herewith, the latest policy document from the DWP , entitled: "Benefit Overpayment Recovery Guide". 

It is dated February 2018 so there is no issue about it being out of date. At Appendix 1 it is clear that in their understanding the term benefit is intended to include the state pension. It clears up many of the issues we have been debating except for the vexed question of whether the DWP would be vigorous or otherwise in the enforcement of its policy. Please note in the introduction that the document is intended to be a guidance document of the DWP for its staff:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/683470/benefit-overpayment-recovery-guide.pdf