Retirement in Thailand for low and mid level budget expats -- is the party really over?

[DaLa]

58 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I grew up watching ads on tv that made Mr Average out to be a complete loser. Watch enough and they probably think it's true, and no one likes a loser.

Also if you grow up thinking that your whole life is about marrying Prince Charming, and he turns out to be a frog, it must have a profound effect on your entire psyche. Rather than blaming themselves for believing in a myth, they turn their disappointment on the poor sucker they married and make his life a misery. My first partner used to tell me I was perfect ( at the start of our relationship ), but no one is, and the only direction from perfection is down.

 

Don’t ask why, however I am on a UK blog named ‘MumsNet’. Like this blog it covers all topics but has a greater leaning towards relationships and family life.

I was bored one day and decided to investigate a post titled:

 

‘Would you marry a man only for money?’

 

There were around one hundred replies and even a few that appeared to consider the implications seriously and realistically. It soon degenerated into the following caveats:

 

‘Yes, if he was kind’

‘Yes, if he was reasonable looking’

‘Yes if he had a reasonable figure and was healthy’

‘Yes, if he wasn’t too old’

‘Yes if he was intelligent and interesting’

and finally

 

‘Yes, if he was intelligent, young, good looking with a healthy body, and kind’

 

I actually got the impression that, yes, most of the ‘mums’ would marry a rich man as long as he had all the traits that their current husbands / partners were devoid of.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, meechai said:

^^^From Article^^^

I said this a few years back when the US Consulate got wise to the BS claims of income & stopped providing the letter for Thai Imm

...

No.

That is NOT what happened.

It is a complete distortion.

What REALLY happened is that Thai immigration decided to make it a problem that the US income letters were done with a sworn affidavit without asking for or even allowing Americans to present proof of the income.

So then Thai immigration pressured the US to start demanding proof and to take responsibility the proof was valid.

The US responded with a hard no. They wouldn't be bothered with the additional work and responsibility shift  So then the US decided if Thai immigration refuses to accept our sworn affidavit policy, fine, no more letters.

The US would have never stopped the letters (they were a cash cow) if Thai immigration hadn't made what they considered were unreasonable demands to dramatically change their long standing policy.

This was NOT the fault of American expats. They got caught in the cross fire.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Jingthing

[rumak]

18 hours ago, John Drake said:

She has a photo as well.

          face of an "expecting privilege" western female.  love the smirk 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by rumak

[DaLa]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

No.

That is NOT what happened.

It is a complete distortion.

What REALLY happened is that Thai immigration decided to make it a problem that the US income letters were done with a sworn affidavit without asking for or even allowing Americans to present proof of the income.

So then Thai immigration pressured the US to start demanding proof and to take responsibility the proof was valid.

The US responded with a hard no. They wouldn't be bothered with the additional work and responsibility shift  So then the US decided if Thai immigration refuses to accept our sworn affidavit policy, fine, no more letters.

The US would have never stopped the letters (they were a cash cow) if Thai immigration hadn't made what they considered were unreasonable demands to dramatically change their long standing policy.

This was NOT the fault of American expats. They got caught in the cross fire.

Similar to the way immigration departments of Governments have passed the job of checking visa and travel status over to the airlines. Then the customer (person travelling) ends up caught out by conflicting interpretations of the rules. Having been employed and paid by a Local Government department I wince at their ability to side step any responsibility and make life more difficult and complicated. 

[rumak]

21 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

"Transgender Kathoey and gay men using tourist-zone scenes as ‘social opportunities’ for nonheteronormative living in Thailand". Which contends "tourist-zones with nonheteronormative scenes can importantly supply new ‘social opportunities’ and resources for nonheteronormative living", presumably thanks to some elderly retirees 'enacting privilege' because of their superior wealth.

My daughter spent quite a few years practicing the art of using big words.   She also now can claim to have "doctor"  in front of her name.

Looking back,  she realizes that all those years were basically a lot of BS,  and the "academics"  she knew were mostly all talk .  

Usually when I read these forums It is fairly easy to sort  the "all talk"  posters , the ones that have their "expert opinions"  from living in tourist areas and never learning from life experience.

After a few decades here I still think the cost of living is very very cheap compared to the West.   The common people are still much more easygoing and non confrontational to others who do not yell and become arrogant.    Food is a bargain still when one shops and cooks at home.    A good partner is easier to find than before (if one can speak some thai and does not settle for the  "you hansum man.   take care me"  option.  

Of course,  the real prerequisite to enjoying the party is to take a good look in the mirror before going out shopping .????

[John Drake]

15 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

OMG, no dishwasher?  How have you survived?

Maybe he fears dishpan hands.  Ought to try Palmolive. That's what Madge the Manicurist said.

[Lacessit]

On 2/11/2022 at 1:37 PM, Jingthing said:

No!

The assertion that all or most Americans that were using the letters before were lying is a disgusting lie. 

I don't know what the statistics are for a larger sample size, but 3 out of 4 Americans I knew in my former condo in Chiang Mai were using the embassy letters. They had to leave Thailand when the crunch came.

[connda]

18 hours ago, chalawaan said:

I love Thailand. The attention, the gardens (my own) , the craic, the buzz. The endless eye candy. 

All of that ruined by monopolistic gouging of foreigners, and official xenophobia. Where other countries are making real efforts to welcome everyone, sometimes to a self defeating degree. 

I don't see how keenok lads can afford not to go home, or why wealthier expats put up with it any longer, when they could live elsewhere and still easily visit for the fix of the things that still make it worth showing up for. 

My wife wants to live here until she dies.  She has a nice house and land.  She if very comfortable.  I hear it all of the time, "I love my house and life."  She has no interest in the West.
If she dies before me?  There are other parts of the world where the living is easier and the food much better and the women just as cute.  The only thing keeping me here is my marriage.

Edited February 12, 2022 by connda

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I don't know what the statistics are for a larger sample size, but 3 out of 4 Americans I knew in my former condo in Chiang Mai were using the embassy letters. They had to leave Thailand when the crunch came.

You have no idea why that was. The alternatives were:

800 k in bank

Monthly transfer 65k difficult for many to set up

Attempt combo method, for many months the rules for that were extremely unclear, especially if doing monthly transfers plus dealing with concurrent radical onerous changes to money seasoning rules.

 

I think you are probably implying they were all cheating.

In reality there were other good reasons to leave at the time.

[connda]

7 hours ago, daveAustin said:

He does that. He hates Brits too. Strange as most Dutch are alright, but you get the odd few who can’t stand the notion of being liberated by the evil ones lol. 

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain

The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans
The Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like
Anybody very much! 

-Kingston Trio, Merry Minuet

[Lacessit]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You have no idea why that was. The alternatives were:

800 k in bank

Monthly transfer 65k difficult for many to set up

Attempt combo method, for many months the rules for that were extremely unclear, especially if doing monthly transfers plus dealing with concurrent radical onerous changes to money seasoning rules.

 

I think you are probably implying they were all cheating.

In reality there were other good reasons to leave at the time.

 As the French President recently said about an Australian Prime Minister, I don't think they were lying. I know.

If you want to deny the reality of some Americans cheating with the letters, it's no skin off my nose.

The 800 K in the bank here is a sore point with quite a few retirees, why would a person bring across what might be their life savings from the USA, when they could raise their hand in front of an assembly official and swear they had enough income?

To me, the 800K is a minor annoyance, as it could be earning income elsewhere. IMO the rule changes were not particularly onerous, just intended to weed out the indigent.

 

[kokesaat]

I used embassy letters for years......but when the US Embassy stopped providing them, it was simple enough to park the money in the bank.  Many Americans I know (in Udon) use the monthly transfer method.

If any expats left because their embassy stopped issuing income letters, they probably shouldn't have been here in the first place (inadequate income).

 

 

[Eff1n2ret]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

This was NOT the fault of American expats. They got caught in the cross fire.

As were the Brits, although we were providing proof of income. The Embassy took the opportunity provided by the American decision to withdraw the service on the rather legalistic grounds that the evidence we were supplying couldn't be verified - in other words, we were all liars.

[Jingthing]

33 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

 As the French President recently said about an Australian Prime Minister, I don't think they were lying. I know.

If you want to deny the reality of some Americans cheating with the letters, it's no skin off my nose.

The 800 K in the bank here is a sore point with quite a few retirees, why would a person bring across what might be their life savings from the USA, when they could raise their hand in front of an assembly official and swear they had enough income?

To me, the 800K is a minor annoyance, as it could be earning income elsewhere. IMO the rule changes were not particularly onerous, just intended to weed out the indigent.

 

Stop lying.

I NEVER denied some lied.

I do strongly push back against those saying all or most lied.

AGAIN, when the US was doing the letters, expats weren't even ALLOWED to show proof.

 

[Jingthing]

Just now, Eff1n2ret said:

As were the Brits, although we were providing proof of income. The Embassy took the opportunity provided by the American decision to withdraw the service on the rather legalistic grounds that the evidence we were supplying couldn't be verified - in other words, we were all liars.

Yes Thai immigration was insisting that those governments own the legal responsibility for the income claim. They said not gonna do it.

[sirineou]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The big drawback of any western country is that they are IMO too expensive ( poor people can't afford to live properly in NZ any more, so I don't understand how any not wealthy would be immigrants would even consider it ), and too boring. Eating in restaurants is not my idea of living the dream, and I've never been into getting drunk for fun.

If someone is wealthy, I don't believe that they can't live better in LOS than anywhere else on the planet, and I very much doubt that the rich have a problem with immigration.

I know a few people retired in Greece on a couple thousand a month income. Which is IMO similar to the cost of living in Thailand. 

"How much money do I need to live in Greece?
All in all, you can expect to live comfortably on a budget of $1,500 each month, which includes average monthly costs and rent for a one-bedroom apartment in the city center of Athens. However, you could potentially cut your costs even more. Beyond just living frugally, living in a more remote area will save you

money. "

https://smartasset.com/retirement/how-to-retire-in-greece

A good way to gage cost of living in countries you might be interested in , in addition to reading as many current articles as you can, It is to go into FB expat groups for that country , post questions and get feedback from those already living there. *

 

[Lacessit]

42 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Stop lying.

I NEVER denied some lied.

I do strongly push back against those saying all or most lied.

AGAIN, when the US was doing the letters, expats weren't even ALLOWED to show proof.

 

Do not call me a liar. I know what I saw, and heard from those Americans who left. One even boasted how he had conned the Thais for 7 years.

Point out in my previous posts where I said "all or most".

Push back all you want, the truth is out there somewhere. The percentage of those who lied will probably never be known accurately.

[itsari]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

 As the French President recently said about an Australian Prime Minister, I don't think they were lying. I know.

If you want to deny the reality of some Americans cheating with the letters, it's no skin off my nose.

The 800 K in the bank here is a sore point with quite a few retirees, why would a person bring across what might be their life savings from the USA, when they could raise their hand in front of an assembly official and swear they had enough income?

To me, the 800K is a minor annoyance, as it could be earning income elsewhere. IMO the rule changes were not particularly onerous, just intended to weed out the indigent.

 

 

[itsari]

The party is not over yet .

Yet when the Thai economy receives more foreign tourists then the game may well be over for many .

Hedge your foreign income to counteract the eventual rise in the Thai baht .

[EVENKEEL]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Do not call me a liar. I know what I saw, and heard from those Americans who left. One even boasted how he had conned the Thais for 7 years.

Point out in my previous posts where I said "all or most".

Push back all you want, the truth is out there somewhere. The percentage of those who lied will probably never be known accurately.

Who cares who fibbed who didn't. Having an agent handle the extension is so easy I seriously doubt not having a letter would force anyone out of Thailand.

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Who cares who fibbed who didn't. Having an agent handle the extension is so easy I seriously doubt not having a letter would force anyone out of Thailand.

I do, I object to being called a liar by some keyboard warrior with delusions about the honesty of some of his nationality.

 

It depends on whether the agent is legit or not. For the agents who falsify bank information to get an extension, it's 30K - 40K baht every year charged to the client. That's more than a month's income to some, especially if they have no pension.

 

Of the three Americans that were forced out by the lack of a letter, two went back to the US. The other went to Cambodia, after moving from a 10K baht/month condo to a 2K baht/month room. He used to say he was licking up ants from the floor for protein. I am not entirely sure he was joking.

 

 

[Jingthing]

33 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I do, I object to being called a liar by some keyboard warrior with delusions about the honesty of some of his nationality.

 

It depends on whether the agent is legit or not. For the agents who falsify bank information to get an extension, it's 30K - 40K baht every year charged to the client. That's more than a month's income to some, especially if they have no pension.

 

Of the three Americans that were forced out by the lack of a letter, two went back to the US. The other went to Cambodia, after moving from a 10K baht/month condo to a 2K baht/month room. He used to say he was licking up ants from the floor for protein. I am not entirely sure he was joking.

 

 

Just stop it!

I never claimed there weren't some that lied.

Also I didn't call.you a liar.

I said stop lying.

Not the same thing.

So you know three people. Big whoop. Simply anecdotal.

 

[meechai]

21 hours ago, Jingthing said:

 

So then Thai immigration pressured the US to start demanding proof and to take responsibility the proof was valid.

 

Well there you got at least one line correct ????

 

Give it up everyone & their brother knew it was 99% BS

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, meechai said:

...

 

Give it up everyone & their brother knew it was 99% BS

False. 

[meechai]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

False. 

In your mind I'm sure it may be ????

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, meechai said:

In your mind I'm sure it may be ????

So according to your theory the applicants that were actually getting the income were lying under oath to their own embassy or perhaps you think no Americans actually qualify by income.

Or lower to use the combo method when it was actually feasible.

Utterly ridiculous.

Again the US would refuse to even look at proof. If you brought it they would say keep it. That was hardly the fault of expats.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I think a few people have asked for definitions of income levels.

 

I think that's probably impossible to be precise about.

 

First of all, levels for lower cost of living retired expat destinations like Thailand, even lower cost options like Nicaragua, or western countries?

 

For purposes here I would say for a Thailand level country.

 

But there are so many individual factors. For example if a lower income person has a million dollars then they are higher wealth, not lower.

 

Or perhaps they have excellent health insurance. Significant because health crises are the most likely thing to wipe people out here although many would argue misbehaving Thai partners.

 

Then there is real estate. Own or rent?

 

Live in central Bangkok or in the sticks?

 

Overhead? Families to support, etc.

 

So you see the required retirement levels (800k or 65k monthly) really have little to do with what it would actually cost to live here, higher or lower.

 

People under 65k monthly income would need to use 800k in bank or a dodgy agent.

 

I still contend the combo method is mostly not feasible anymore.

 

So given all that I can make a stab at guestimating rough levels.

 

Others would legitimately come up with very different numbers.

 

Monthly income

 

Under 800 USD  

Be afraid.  Be very afraid. 

 

LOWER

800 to 1300 USD

You're very vulnerable to life events, immigration changes

 

MIDDLE

1300 to 2500 USD

Still vulnerable but less so

Edited February 13, 2022 by Jingthing

[meechai]

57 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So according to your theory the applicants that were actually getting the income were lying under oath to their own embassy or perhaps you think no Americans actually qualify by income.

No I think some did qualify & for them it was not a big deal when the swear to have it ended instead they just brought in 800k & parked it or did what they claimed all along & brought in 65k a month with the transfer papers to prove to IMM simple.

 

But for some perhaps like yourself maybe? there was a great weeping & gnashing of the teeth as they felt they were being treated unfairly yet  these same folks were ultimately to blame for the ending the golden fleece of the "claim" to having x amount of $$ without ever having to prove it themselves in the first place

 

As for the US refusing it was their refusal to guarantee the nonsense most provided as proof period

 

Again end of day no ticket no show.

 

Hear me now or believe me later...anyone not able to put up the funds they previously "claimed" to have

will have a much bigger problem soon when the required health insurance becomes a  part of any yearly visa extension

 

Plan ahead ????

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by meechai

[EVENKEEL]

4 minutes ago, meechai said:

No I think some did qualify & for them it was not a big deal when the swear to have it ended instead they just brought in 800k & parked it or did what they claimed all along & brought in 65k a month with the transfer papers to prove to IMM simple.

 

But for some perhaps like yourself maybe? there was a great weeping & gnashing of the teeth as they felt they were being treated unfairly yet  these same folks were ultimately to blame for the ending the golden fleece of the "claim" to having x amount of $$ without ever having to prove it themselves in the first place

 

As for the US refusing it was their refusal to guarantee the nonsense most provided as proof period

 

Again end of day no ticket no show.

 

Hear me now or believe me later...anyone not able to put up the funds they previously "claimed" to have

will have a much bigger problem soon when the required health insurance becomes a  part of any yearly visa extension

 

Agent can handle the Ins proof as well. When I had an agent do my 12 mos extension for OA it cost 3000 tbh for health ins.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, meechai said:

....

 

But for some perhaps like yourself maybe? there was a great weeping & gnashing of the teeth as they felt they were being treated unfairly yet  these same folks were ultimately to blame for the ending the golden fleece of the "claim" to having x amount of $$ without ever having to prove it themselves in the first place

 

...

Stop insulting me personally!

Your attacks are both disgusting and WRONG. 

Again the topic is stated in the OP.

I AM NOT THE TOPIC.