Jan. 6 committee says probe shows Trump led and directed effort to overturn 2020 election

[heybruce]

15 minutes ago, candide said:

I would also suggest a psychological explanation. Big guns may be a substitute of.. ahem, you know what I mean....????

Big guns and supercars; loud, ostentatious, and totally impractical. The perfect distraction for men who are feeling insecure about what's happening below the belt.

[Yellowtail]

13 hours ago, Lacessit said:

They are racist groups, you were talking about where the racism comes from. Permit me to doubt Obama was promoting division, that's Trump's specialty.

You can doubt it, but your doubt means little. You might try looking the statistics at the end of the Bush Administration and again at the end of the Obama Administration.

 

13 hours ago, Lacessit said:

More than the BLM organisation,  Rittenhouse, the shooter that targeted Muslims, George Floyd ring any bells?

So you have nothing about the KKK, Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, so you deflect. 

 

13 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Your last assertion - do you have a link to credible information that gives the voting pattern of every FBI agent? You know, data and statistics, not a Sean Hannity opinion.

Every FBI agent does not make claims that the white supremacy is a big problem, that would be the elitists running the department.

 

13 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Of course, people like you consider Democrats as leftists. Which is laughable, Australians think of US Democrats as being somewhere right of centre.

Of course people like you can make up whatever they like about what they believe people like me think, but I don't consider Democrats leftists, many are liberals and some are conservatives, but the party has been taken over by the left. 

 

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Every FBI agent does not make claims that the white supremacy is a big problem, that would be the elitists running the department.

This is an exceptionally ridiculous comment. By your logic the same could said of virtually any organization. That not all the members of it agree. You think you are making a serious point by calling those in charge of making such determinations "elitists"? Just a coincidence that  such a designation dovetails with your political beliefs?

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

This is an exceptionally ridiculous comment. By your logic the same could said of virtually any organization. That not all the members of it agree. You think you are making a serious point by calling those in charge of making such determinations "elitists"? Just a coincidence that  such a designation dovetails with your political beliefs?

Can the same not be said of virtually every organization?

 

Are you arguing that virtually all FBI employees believe white supremacy is the greatest threat to the United States? If not, is your only point that my referring to leadership the was inappropriate?

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Can the same not be said of virtually every organization?

 

Are you arguing that virtually all FBI employees believe white supremacy is the greatest threat to the United States? If not, is your only point that my referring to leadership the was inappropriate?

 

 

 

 

What do you think it means when I wrote "By your logic the same could said of virtually any organization. That not all the members of it agree."?

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Can the same not be said of virtually every organization?

 

Are you arguing that virtually all FBI employees believe white supremacy is the greatest threat to the United States? If not, is your only point that my referring to leadership the was inappropriate?

Clearly they don't. White supremacists within the ranks of law enforcement has long been a problem. You seem to have a problem with the FBI actually being run by the "elitists" at the top?

 

The agency obviously believes white supremacy is a big threat.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/20/fbi-white-supremacist-violence-michael-german

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/fbi-white-supremacy-threat-testimony-b1951032.html

[xylophone]

10 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

White supremacists within the ranks of law enforcement has long been a problem.

It is widespread in the US unfortunately, and is alarming IMO.......

 

Idaho police have received death threats after the members of a white supremacists group were arrested last week. (Associated Press).

Last month, a fundamentalist Idaho pastor told his small Boise congregation that gay, lesbian and transgender people should be executed by the government. Another fundamentalist pastor in Texas gives similar sermons.

And last week, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis said he would consider sending child protective services to investigate parents who take their children to drag shows.

 

And a poster has said that Florida Governor Ron DeSantis would be a good candidate for President!

 

Anyway, getting back on track..............

 

The House panel investigating the January 6, 2021, insurrection systemically made the case in its second hearing that several of Trump's advisers warned him against making false claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election that he lost. But the president would not listen.

 

The nine-member panel is trying to make the case that Trump, and those allies who helped him, were deliberately lying as he pushed those election falsehoods in the weeks ahead of the violent insurrection. The rioters who broke into the Capitol that day and interrupted the certification of President Joe Biden's victory were echoing Trump's lies that he, not Biden, had rightfully won the election.

 

TRUMP'S 'MIND WAS MADE UP'

 

In a series of video clips from the committee's closed-door interviews, several of Trump's advisers testified that they told him repeatedly he should not declare that there was widespread election fraud — and that those claims were false. But Trump increasingly relied on wild theories that were pushed by Trump lawyers Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell, among others, according to the testimony.

[KanchanaburiGuy]

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

It is widespread in the US unfortunately, and is alarming IMO.......

 

Idaho police have received death threats after the members of a white supremacists group were arrested last week. (Associated Press).

Last month, a fundamentalist Idaho pastor told his small Boise congregation that gay, lesbian and transgender people should be executed by the government. Another fundamentalist pastor in Texas gives similar sermons.

And last week, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis said he would consider sending child protective services to investigate parents who take their children to drag shows.

 

And a poster has said that Florida Governor Ron DeSantis would be a good candidate for President!

 

Anyway, getting back on track..............

 

The House panel investigating the January 6, 2021, insurrection systemically made the case in its second hearinghat he lost. But the president would not listen.

 

The nine-member panel is trying to make the case that Trump, and those allies who helped him, were deliberately lying as he pushed those election falsehoods in the weeks ahead of the violent insurrection. The rioters who broke into the Capitol that day and interrupted the certification of President Joe Biden's victory were echoing Trump's lies that he, not Biden, had rightfully won the election.

 

TRUMP'S 'MIND WAS MADE UP'

 

In a series of video clips from the committee's closed-door interviews, several of Trump's advisers testified that they told him repeatedly he should not declare that there was widespread election fraud — and that those claims were false. But Trump increasingly relied on wild theories that were pushed by Trump lawyers Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell, among others, according to the testimony.

What needs to be proved, here, is not that people told Trump that what he was saying was false, but that Trump himself believed they were false. 

 

"...that several of Trump's advisers warned him against making false claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election..." 

 

Of course, Trump then has the simplest of rebuttals available to him.............. "They told me not to make false claims. I wasn't making false claims."

 

See, it's not important what his advisors told him. That only matters if Trump later wants to claim, "No one told me."

 

The only thing that is important is what he believed!.......... If he believed---truly believed---he was speaking the truth, then advice to stop saying false things........ would naturally fall on deaf ears! 

 

Indeed, Trump may have been mystified as to why his advisors kept insisting he START speaking in falsehoods, when he believed he was speaking the truth, all along! 

 

If you don't understand that there was almost certainly a role-reversal going on with Trump---what was true, he believed was false; what was false, he believed was true---then you'll completely misunderstand what his reaction would be when someone tells him to "stop saying things that are false!" 

 

To role-reversed Trump, to tell him to "not say things that are false".......... is to tell him to not say the things that are actually true! 

 

(It's a little like playing around with negative numbers, in math. Lol The thinking feels weirdly backwards! lol) 

 

So the committee parading a bunch of advisors who told Trump he was wrong......... really means nothing. Whether or not TRUMP believed he was wrong......... is the only thing that matters. 

 

So, who among his advisors, his friends, his family, and the thousands who heard him give speeches............ ever heard him say anything different from the things we heard a thousand times over? 

 

Are there ANY?

 

Anyone, anywhere? 

 

If there isn't........ then............ for all their showmanship, they're not actually building a case against TRUMP!

 

Then it all just becomes hand-waving and table-thumping. 

 

(Of course, we're still only in the middle, so it's not fair to criticize too much! 555)

 

Cheers! 

[candide]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Can the same not be said of virtually every organization?

 

Are you arguing that virtually all FBI employees believe white supremacy is the greatest threat to the United States? If not, is your only point that my referring to leadership the was inappropriate?

If they don't all believe it, they should!

 

"Violent far-right attacks and plots remained the most frequent type of domestic terrorism in 2021......

....Most violent far-right perpetrators were motivated by white supremacist or anti-government sentiments, and they committed most of the fatal attacks in 2021. Of the 30 fatalities in 2021, 28 resulted from far-right terrorist attacks. White supremacists killed 13 people, a violent misogynist killed 8, anti-government extremists killed 4, and an anti-vaccination perpetrator killed 3"

https://www.csis.org/analysis/pushed-extremes-domestic-terrorism-amid-polarization-and-protest

 

[heybruce]

21 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

What needs to be proved, here, is not that people told Trump that what he was saying was false, but that Trump himself believed they were false. 

 

"...that several of Trump's advisers warned him against making false claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election..." 

 

Of course, Trump then has the simplest of rebuttals available to him.............. "They told me not to make false claims. I wasn't making false claims."

 

See, it's not important what his advisors told him. That only matters if Trump later wants to claim, "No one told me."

 

The only thing that is important is what he believed!.......... If he believed---truly believed---he was speaking the truth, then advice to stop saying false things........ would naturally fall on deaf ears! 

 

Indeed, Trump may have been mystified as to why his advisors kept insisting he START speaking in falsehoods, when he believed he was speaking the truth, all along! 

 

If you don't understand that there was almost certainly a role-reversal going on with Trump---what was true, he believed was false; what was false, he believed was true---then you'll completely misunderstand what his reaction would be when someone tells him to "stop saying things that are false!" 

 

To role-reversed Trump, to tell him to "not say things that are false".......... is to tell him to not say the things that are actually true! 

 

(It's a little like playing around with negative numbers, in math. Lol The thinking feels weirdly backwards! lol) 

 

So the committee parading a bunch of advisors who told Trump he was wrong......... really means nothing. Whether or not TRUMP believed he was wrong......... is the only thing that matters. 

 

So, who among his advisors, his friends, his family, and the thousands who heard him give speeches............ ever heard him say anything different from the things we heard a thousand times over? 

 

Are there ANY?

 

Anyone, anywhere? 

 

If there isn't........ then............ for all their showmanship, they're not actually building a case against TRUMP!

 

Then it all just becomes hand-waving and table-thumping. 

 

(Of course, we're still only in the middle, so it's not fair to criticize too much! 555)

 

Cheers! 

Trump knows how to communicate like a mafia boss:  Never write, print, or text instructions.  Keep instructions verbal and ambiguous..."I want you to do us a favor though..."  What he wanted was obvious, but he didn't spell it out.

 

He may have crossed the line with the "fight like hell" speech then meekly following up with "peacefully".

[candide]

28 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

What needs to be proved, here, is not that people told Trump that what he was saying was false, but that Trump himself believed they were false. 

 

"...that several of Trump's advisers warned him against making false claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election..." 

 

Of course, Trump then has the simplest of rebuttals available to him.............. "They told me not to make false claims. I wasn't making false claims."

 

See, it's not important what his advisors told him. That only matters if Trump later wants to claim, "No one told me."

 

The only thing that is important is what he believed!.......... If he believed---truly believed---he was speaking the truth, then advice to stop saying false things........ would naturally fall on deaf ears! 

 

Indeed, Trump may have been mystified as to why his advisors kept insisting he START speaking in falsehoods, when he believed he was speaking the truth, all along! 

 

If you don't understand that there was almost certainly a role-reversal going on with Trump---what was true, he believed was false; what was false, he believed was true---then you'll completely misunderstand what his reaction would be when someone tells him to "stop saying things that are false!" 

 

To role-reversed Trump, to tell him to "not say things that are false".......... is to tell him to not say the things that are actually true! 

 

(It's a little like playing around with negative numbers, in math. Lol The thinking feels weirdly backwards! lol) 

 

So the committee parading a bunch of advisors who told Trump he was wrong......... really means nothing. Whether or not TRUMP believed he was wrong......... is the only thing that matters. 

 

So, who among his advisors, his friends, his family, and the thousands who heard him give speeches............ ever heard him say anything different from the things we heard a thousand times over? 

 

Are there ANY?

 

Anyone, anywhere? 

 

If there isn't........ then............ for all their showmanship, they're not actually building a case against TRUMP!

 

Then it all just becomes hand-waving and table-thumping. 

 

(Of course, we're still only in the middle, so it's not fair to criticize too much! 555)

 

Cheers! 

While I often desagree with you, I acknowledge you may have a point.

Trump can play the "dumb" card. And he has a credible past record about it. Practically, we know it is B.S., but technically there is no absolute proof that he did not promote the Big Lie because he is a moron.

That may work for him, or not.

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Can the same not be said of virtually every organization?

 

Are you arguing that virtually all FBI employees believe white supremacy is the greatest threat to the United States? If not, is your only point that my referring to leadership the was inappropriate?

 

 

 

 

Utter nonsense.

 

The FBI is a large organization dealing with a wide range of criminal activity committed by people across the whole of the US.

 

Some agents specialize in Drug related crimes, some agents specialize in financial crimes, some agents specialize in crimes of child abuse and some agents specialize in the threat of domestic terrorism.

 

Each reports through the management of their department.

 

The FBI management report the findings of individual departments.

 

The opinion of individual FBI agents is reported through the chain of command, their opinion on matters they are not dealing with is irrelevant.

 

What a random FBI Agent thinks or does not think about a issue in which they have no involvement is not an argument against the findings of FBI reports.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

What needs to be proved, here, is not that people told Trump that what he was saying was false, but that Trump himself believed they were false. 

 

"...that several of Trump's advisers warned him against making false claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election..." 

 

Of course, Trump then has the simplest of rebuttals available to him.............. "They told me not to make false claims. I wasn't making false claims."

 

See, it's not important what his advisors told him. That only matters if Trump later wants to claim, "No one told me."

 

The only thing that is important is what he believed!.......... If he believed---truly believed---he was speaking the truth, then advice to stop saying false things........ would naturally fall on deaf ears! 

 

Indeed, Trump may have been mystified as to why his advisors kept insisting he START speaking in falsehoods, when he believed he was speaking the truth, all along! 

 

If you don't understand that there was almost certainly a role-reversal going on with Trump---what was true, he believed was false; what was false, he believed was true---then you'll completely misunderstand what his reaction would be when someone tells him to "stop saying things that are false!" 

 

To role-reversed Trump, to tell him to "not say things that are false".......... is to tell him to not say the things that are actually true! 

 

(It's a little like playing around with negative numbers, in math. Lol The thinking feels weirdly backwards! lol) 

 

So the committee parading a bunch of advisors who told Trump he was wrong......... really means nothing. Whether or not TRUMP believed he was wrong......... is the only thing that matters. 

 

So, who among his advisors, his friends, his family, and the thousands who heard him give speeches............ ever heard him say anything different from the things we heard a thousand times over? 

 

Are there ANY?

 

Anyone, anywhere? 

 

If there isn't........ then............ for all their showmanship, they're not actually building a case against TRUMP!

 

Then it all just becomes hand-waving and table-thumping. 

 

(Of course, we're still only in the middle, so it's not fair to criticize too much! 555)

 

Cheers! 

What needs to be proved is ‘Mens Rae’.

 

Sworn testimony from the paid officials who job it was to advise the President of facts that he then ignored is a long way towards proving ‘Mens Rae’.

 

Then going on to promote the ‘Big Lie’ seek and obtain $250 million from his supporters to ‘fight the Big Lie’ but instead pocket the money is an even easier path to proving ‘Mens Rae’ - there’s a money trail.

 

 

[ozimoron]

14 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What needs to be proved is ‘Mens Rae’.

 

Sworn testimony from the paid officials who job it was to advise the President of facts that he then ignored is a long way towards proving ‘Mens Rae’.

 

Then going on to promote the ‘Big Lie’ seek and obtain $250 million from his supporters to ‘fight the Big Lie’ but instead pocket the money is an even easier path to proving ‘Mens Rae’ - there’s a money trail.

Didn't they teach you Latin at school? ????

 

It's mens rea.

[xylophone]

3 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Didn't they teach you Latin at school? ????

 

It's mens rea.

I knew what he meant though, because unfortunately I had to do Latin for the first three years at my grammar school, and I absolutely hated it!

 

I think he makes a good point, and I know you were only joking with your comment!! Keep up the good work.........

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Didn't they teach you Latin at school? ????

 

It's mens rea.

Yes they did, but they did not teach Latin to my auto spell checker.

[Yellowtail]

19 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Utter nonsense.

 

The FBI is a large organization dealing with a wide range of criminal activity committed by people across the whole of the US.

 

Some agents specialize in Drug related crimes, some agents specialize in financial crimes, some agents specialize in crimes of child abuse and some agents specialize in the threat of domestic terrorism.

 

Each reports through the management of their department.

 

The FBI management report the findings of individual departments.

 

The opinion of individual FBI agents is reported through the chain of command, their opinion on matters they are not dealing with is irrelevant.

 

What a random FBI Agent thinks or does not think about a issue in which they have no involvement is not an argument against the findings of FBI reports.

So I was correct, thanks. 

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So I was correct, thanks. 

Another misconstrual. Well, at least you're consistent.

[pomchop]

To indict and convict trump of a crime just follow the money...whether it is bank fraud from massively inflating values to tax fraud for massively undervaluing assets it is all in writing....you also don't keep two sets of books unless u are commiting crimes....when u collect hundreds of millions of $$ from ignorant kool aid drinkers by promising the $ will be used to fight the stolen election in court but then spend that $$ on yourself that is fraud....there are PLENTY of crimes that trump should be charged with that are all in writing so no matter what bs he claims to believe or not believe doesn't matter...does anyone really believe its not all about $$ and ego with the cheetoh?  Kool aide for sale.

[stevenl]

The sad thing is nothing will come of this. We knew it, but the GOP won't (be able to) drop him and there will not be a criminal prosecution of Trump.

[KanchanaburiGuy]

23 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What needs to be proved is ‘Mens Rae’.

 

Sworn testimony from the paid officials who job it was to advise the President of facts that he then ignored is a long way towards proving ‘Mens Rae’.

 

Then going on to promote the ‘Big Lie’ seek and obtain $250 million from his supporters to ‘fight the Big Lie’ but instead pocket the money is an even easier path to proving ‘Mens Rae’ - there’s a money trail.

 

 

Does sworn testimony from a priest that he told me that "God exists, and God loves you"........... prove that I therefore believe that "God exists, and God loves me?" 

 

No, it only proves that I was told.

 

It doesn't prove that I believe him. 

 

Surely you know it would be possible to provide DOZENS of examples of Trump declaring himself a bigger expert than all the experts.............. Afghanistan, ISIS, Covid, Trade, Negotiating, and on and on. 

 

And surely you know there must be dozens of examples of Trump believing that his own certainty......... was almost always more important to Trump than any facts he was being told. 

 

(I've read three books by former Trump Administration officials. These foibles were consistently the source of their greatest frustrations while working in the Trump White House. They'd tell him and tell him, to no avail. Eventually they'd quit or get fired............ and then Trump would blast them for their incompetence............ because they tried to tell him the truth!) 

 

No, without some evidence or testimony that Trump KNEW what the truth was and was speaking contrary to that............. there'll be no case.

 

So tell me...... 

 

Is there any evidence or testimony that Trump KNEW what the truth was.......... and ignored it?

 

Anything at all? 

 

All those people he dealt closely with and consulted with.............. all those people who have testified......... all those speeches and rallies......... all those interviews and press conferences............ has he said something EVEN ONCE that indicated he knew what the truth was, and was choosing to ignore it?

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

So tell me...... 

 

Is there any evidence or testimony that Trump KNEW what the truth was.......... and ignored it?

 

Anything at all? 

 

It isn't a legal defense when one had reason to believe that what one was saying wasn't true. That's why the committee focused on the advice he received from people he knew were experts and who he had appointed. In the final analysis it's what a jury will believe.

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Does sworn testimony from a priest that he told me that "God exists, and God loves you"........... prove that I therefore believe that "God exists, and God loves me?" 

 

No, it only proves that I was told.

 

It doesn't prove that I believe him. 

 

Surely you know it would be possible to provide DOZENS of examples of Trump declaring himself a bigger expert than all the experts.............. Afghanistan, ISIS, Covid, Trade, Negotiating, and on and on. 

 

And surely you know there must be dozens of examples of Trump believing that his own certainty......... was almost always more important to Trump than any facts he was being told. 

 

(I've read three books by former Trump Administration officials. These foibles were consistently the source of their greatest frustrations while working in the Trump White House. They'd tell him and tell him, to no avail. Eventually they'd quit or get fired............ and then Trump would blast them for their incompetence............ because they tried to tell him the truth!) 

 

No, without some evidence or testimony that Trump KNEW what the truth was and was speaking contrary to that............. there'll be no case.

 

So tell me...... 

 

Is there any evidence or testimony that Trump KNEW what the truth was.......... and ignored it?

 

Anything at all? 

 

All those people he dealt closely with and consulted with.............. all those people who have testified......... all those speeches and rallies......... all those interviews and press conferences............ has he said something EVEN ONCE that indicated he knew what the truth was, and was choosing to ignore it? 

 

Anything at all? 

 

I'll wait..........

 

????????????

 

Cheers! 

 

 

Not only is it a valid legal defense but is should be Trump's campaign theme: Join Me in Denying Reality. Just to make explicit what's been implicit all along.

[KanchanaburiGuy]

23 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It isn't a legal defense when one had reason to believe that what one was saying wasn't true. That's why the committee focused on the advice he received from people he knew were experts and who he had appointed. In the final analysis it's what a jury will believe.

Wasn't it you who clarified mens rea............ when knowledge that something is a crime........... is a required element of the crime? 

 

And you seem to have breezed past the point that Trump has a long history of taking his own counsel, and ignoring what "experts" are trying to tell him. He believes he IS the expert! 

 

This is why he practically had to have a revolving door installed in the White House............ with people coming in and going out........... ("Experts," presumably).......... getting frustrated, then quitting or getting fired! 

 

I guess it was the last year and a half, or so, that it got so bad that he quit even giving people the job! They weren't his "Chief of Staff"......... they were his TEMPORARY Chief of Staff! (Or "Interim," or "Acting".....) There were Cabinet Level positions filled with "Acting XXXs"............ for fairly long stretches! Things got so bad that he had to hire placeholders........... rather than actually giving people the job! (Too embarrassing, I assume, to have another one QUIT!) But when someone is merely a "temp" anyway........ ????????????

 

--------------

 

Experts and Advisors having talked to a different President........... might have meant something. 

 

Having Experts and Advisors tell us that they talked to Trump......... is almost as worthless to us......... as it was apparently useless to Trump! 

 

Cheers! 

[KanchanaburiGuy]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Not only is it a valid legal defense but is should be Trump's campaign theme: Join Me in Denying Reality. Just to make explicit what's been implicit all along.

Lol....... 

 

There are those within the United States and without who would say he did that with MAGA....... "Make America Great AGAIN!" 

 

"Again?" they'd say. "Was it EVER?" 

 

LOL

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

The sad thing is nothing will come of this. We knew it, but the GOP won't (be able to) drop him and there will not be a criminal prosecution of Trump.

Too early to say that.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Wasn't it you who clarified mens rea............ when knowledge that something is a crime........... is a required element of the crime? 

 

And you seem to have breezed past the point that Trump has a long history of taking his own counsel, and ignoring what "experts" are trying to tell him. He believes he IS the expert! 

 

This is why he practically had to have a revolving door installed in the White House............ with people coming in and going out........... ("Experts," presumably).......... getting frustrated, then quitting or getting fired! 

 

I guess it was the last year and a half, or so, that it got so bad that he quit even giving people the job! They weren't his "Chief of Staff"......... they were his TEMPORARY Chief of Staff! (Or "Interim," or "Acting".....) There were Cabinet Level positions filled with "Acting XXXs"............ for fairly long stretches! Things got so bad that he had to hire placeholders........... rather than actually giving people the job! (Too embarrassing, I assume, to have another one QUIT!) But when someone is merely a "temp" anyway........ ????????????

 

--------------

 

Experts and Advisors having talked to a different President........... might have meant something. 

 

Having Experts and Advisors tell us that they talked to Trump......... is almost as worthless to us......... as it was apparently useless to Trump! 

 

Cheers! 

It simply doesn't matter whether he ignores the expert or not. When your lawyer tells you that bank robbery is a crime before you rob the bank, you can't claim you didn't know based on ignoring or not believing the experts. Again, in the end, it's what a jury believes he knew, not what he said he knew.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Does sworn testimony from a priest that he told me that "God exists, and God loves you"........... prove that I therefore believe that "God exists, and God loves me?" 

 

No, it only proves that I was told.

 

It doesn't prove that I believe him. 

 

Surely you know it would be possible to provide DOZENS of examples of Trump declaring himself a bigger expert than all the experts.............. Afghanistan, ISIS, Covid, Trade, Negotiating, and on and on. 

 

And surely you know there must be dozens of examples of Trump believing that his own certainty......... was almost always more important to Trump than any facts he was being told. 

 

(I've read three books by former Trump Administration officials. These foibles were consistently the source of their greatest frustrations while working in the Trump White House. They'd tell him and tell him, to no avail. Eventually they'd quit or get fired............ and then Trump would blast them for their incompetence............ because they tried to tell him the truth!) 

 

No, without some evidence or testimony that Trump KNEW what the truth was and was speaking contrary to that............. there'll be no case.

 

So tell me...... 

 

Is there any evidence or testimony that Trump KNEW what the truth was.......... and ignored it?

 

Anything at all? 

 

All those people he dealt closely with and consulted with.............. all those people who have testified......... all those speeches and rallies......... all those interviews and press conferences............ has he said something EVEN ONCE that indicated he knew what the truth was, and was choosing to ignore it? 

 

Anything at all? 

 

I'll wait..........

 

????????????

 

Cheers! 

 

 

You obviously do not understand the evidential weight of sworn testimony.

 

Stay tuned to the hearings and the following DoJ investigation.

 

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1 hour ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Lol....... 

 

There are those within the United States and without who would say he did that with MAGA....... "Make America Great AGAIN!" 

 

"Again?" they'd say. "Was it EVER?" 

 

LOL

Well, you did manage here to avoid the issue of Trump's firm grip on unreality.

[Jingthing]

If a case is made that Trump conspired to defraud the United States by pressuring Pence to not do his constitutional duty any issues of whether he believed he lost or not are moot. Also in a potential Georgia "find me the votes"  case.

Trump defenders are grasping at straws