Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Why ?
 

The forms for filing a tax return are available in both Thai and English. They are currently ammending the forms to include an extra Section to list income that is covered by a DTA.

 

Where people might need the services of a tax consultant is if they are having difficulty with certain aspects of the income that they remit to Thailand. I'll leave you to work out what those difficulties might be.

I can't read your mind.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I can't read your mind.

 

What is the main reason for this change occuring on the 01 Jan 2024 ?
 

It is to close a loophole that has allowed, mainly rich thais, to avoid paying taxes. It will not only be rich Thais that are using loopholes to avoid paying tax, but foreigners residing in Thailand also.

 

From the 01 Jan they will now have the option of paying tax in their home Country or paying tax in Thailand.

 

That is not to say what they were doing was illegal, but the loophole they were using is going to be closed.

[redwood1]

53 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's ridiculous!

The definition of Thailand tax resident is very simple.

At least 180 days or more of the year being in Thailand.

Having a DTA is a thing but it's not magic.

The Thai tax authorities would need to see your foreign details to see in which way you qualify or not.

Each nation that has one has a different one.

This is going to be a field day for expat tax consultants here.

 

Do honestly think the Indians ,Russians and Chinese are going to be slaving away over piles of forms and paperwork and tax codes and studying all the complicated details of international tax law and dealing with their country's hugely complex bureaucracy to try and prove their money is tax free..... ?

 

Boy, I sure don't, not even for one minute.....

 

They will just continue on as usual....

Edited November 11, 2023 by redwood1

[JimTripper]

i'm just going to ignore this and get the o-a visa every two years and withdraw from my home country bank via the atm.

 

if i get hit with a no filing fee or entry is refused i will decide what to do at that point in time, or just move to siem reap.

Edited November 11, 2023 by JimTripper

[moogradod]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

..............

The forms for filing a tax return are available in both Thai and English. They are currently ammending the forms to include an extra Section to list income that is covered by a DTA.

 

Where people might need the services of a tax consultant is if they are having difficulty with certain aspects of the income that they remit to Thailand. I'll leave you to work out what those difficulties might be.

1. How come you know about the extra section ?

2. To what mailing list will they then send the information or request for filing ?

3. Just in case: Has anybody have the adress of a Top-consultant who could hold my hand if it would come to more complicated discussions with the Tax authorities (which I do not really expect, but the new people hired per tax district (what is a tax district ? Amphoe ?)  have obviously not much experience since they just started

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

 

Do honestly think the Indians ,Russians and Chinese are going to be slaving away over piles of forms and paperwork and tax codes and studying all the complicated details of international tax law and dealing with their country's hugely complex bureaucracy to try and prove their money is tax free..... ?

 

Boy, I sure don't, not even for one minute.....

 

They will just continue on as usual....

I honestly don't think that's relevant.

If the Thai authorities deem such people of any nationality to be non-compliant, then it will be those individuals that will need to make their case.

Keep in mind that a possible scenario might be immigration needing tax information to process extensions.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

42 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

i'm just going to ignore this and get the o-a visa every two years and withdraw from my home country bank via the atm.

 

if i get hit with a no filing fee or entry is refused i will decide what to do at that point in time, or just move to siem reap.

Yeah you could do that but if you're a tax resident here the authorities know that you're spending money here, so doing that could lead to suspicion of (taxable) illegally working here or you might need to make your case as your more off the record ATM transfers. The Nomad Capitalist guy is suggesting that even spending in Thailand with a foreign credit card is a remittance as well.

It's premature for most people to make plans to leave yet.

Personally I expect a good chance to be required to file and a good chance to owe no tax here. But at my level even if taxed it wouldn't be enough to rationalize leaving because of it. 

[Jingthing]

Nobody here knows exactly how this all is going to shake out. Except if you're not a tax resident -- in which case nothing will happen.

A lot will also depend on your specific financial details and your nationality.

My prediction take it or leave it based on what we know now is that tax resident expats will be burdened to file in Thailand and prove to them you have no tax liability here, or if you do, to file and pay it.

We shall see.

[jayboy]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

My take is at the very least eventually most Thailand tax resident expats are going to at least be required to FILE a Thai tax return even if they will owe nothing.

 

 

Perhaps but I don't see how it would be enforced.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

 

Perhaps but I don't see how it would be enforced.

Possibly through immigration.

Or they could simply require all tax resident foreigners to file.

If you want to lie on that, best of luck. 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

 

Perhaps but I don't see how it would be enforced.

No tax clearance certificate, no visa/re-entry permit or visa, the US used to do similar with green card holders.

[The Cyclist]

39 minutes ago, moogradod said:

1. How come you know about the extra section ?

 

Because the information has been posted in 2 threads on multiple occassions.

[JimTripper]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah you could do that but if you're a tax resident here the authorities know that you're spending money here, so doing that could lead to suspicion of (taxable) illegally working here or you might need to make your case as your more off the record ATM transfers. The Nomad Capitalist guy is suggesting that even spending in Thailand with a foreign credit card is a remittance as well.

It's premature for most people to make plans to leave yet.

Personally I expect a good chance to be required to file and a good chance to owe no tax here. But at my level even if taxed it wouldn't be enough to rationalize leaving because of it. 

Easy for me to move, I don't have property or family here.

 

My only worry would be getting some sort of jail time or being prevented from leaving the country.

 

[jayboy]

23 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

No tax clearance certificate, no visa/re-entry permit or visa, the US used to do similar with green card holders.

Tax clearance certificate seems most likely as the statutory requirement is still on the books.The practical implementation was phased out in the 1980's.

[jayboy]

26 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Possibly through immigration.

Or they could simply require all tax resident foreigners to file.

If you want to lie on that, best of luck. 

It's already a requirement for tax resident foreigners to file.I very much doubt whether 1% non working retirees actually do.

 

As noted elsewhere implementation of requirement for tax certificate on exiting the Kingdom would do the job.

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, jayboy said:

It's already a requirement for tax resident foreigners to file.I very much doubt whether 1% non working retirees actually do.

 

I do, I'm a good boy. :))

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I do, I'm a good boy. :))

Long story short, I needed a Thai Tax Identification Number (TIN) for my UK bank so as I'd jumped through the hoops to get one I thought I might as well file a return to reclaim withheld interest on my bank accounts for 2021/2022.

 

Absolute joke of a process where I had to photocopy every page of my passport & every page of my Bank Books, then complete a form about my pension income where every answer was Not Applicable (I don't receive a Pension).

 

They then asked for photo copies of every statement from my Non-Thai Bank Accounts (I have 3 in the UK & 1 in Singapore) to which I replied that I'd had 1 of these accounts since I was 7 (50 years) & another since I was 18 (39 years) so it would be impossible to get every statement from these accounts & what did they really need.  They seemed to give up at this point & say they had everything they needed & would be in touch if they needed anything else, 6 months later I still haven't received the money back & so have also gave up. 

 

Nobody in the Department (Chonburi Office across Jomtien 2nd road from Immigration) seemed to speak English so I cannot see how they can cope with a massive increase in English speaking foreigners filing tax returns neither mind other nationalities.

 

Even if we have everything converted to Thai for them, how are they going to cope when people go in to ask questions/seek clarification. 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[Mike Lister]

33 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Long story short, I needed a Thai Tax Identification Number (TIN) for my UK bank so as I'd jumped through the hoops to get one I thought I might as well file a return to reclaim withheld interest on my bank accounts for 2021/2022.

 

Absolute joke of a process where I had to photocopy every page of my passport & every page of my Bank Books, then complete a form about my pension income where every answer was Not Applicable (I don't receive a Pension).

 

They then asked for photo copies of every statement from my Non-Thai Bank Accounts (I have 3 in the UK & 1 in Singapore) to which I replied that I'd had 1 of these accounts since I was 7 (50 years) & another since I was 18 (39 years) so it would be impossible to get every statement from these accounts & what did they really need.  They seemed to give up at this point & say they had everything they needed & would be in touch if they needed anything else, 6 months later I still haven't received the money back & so have also gave up. 

 

Nobody in the Department (Chonburi Office across Jomtien 2nd road from Immigration) seemed to speak English so I cannot see how they can cope with a massive increase in English speaking foreigners filing tax returns neither mind other nationalities.

 

Even if we have everything converted to Thai for them, how are they going to cope when people go in to ask questions/seek clarification. 

 

 

In the good old days, eighteen years ago in Chiang Mai, all I did was ask for one and they gave it to me, I think I could have got two if I'd wanted.

[WhatsNext]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I read the same thing and really don't get why you think  that post is so positive.

 

If this is implemented, with the emphasis on "If" then the following will apply :

 

* All income before 2024 isn't taxed when you bring it in, meaning if you have savings and you bring them here, all is fine. By the way, this is how it should be as no country should tax imported savings

 

So end effect : Keep your pension in your country of origin, or outside of Thailand anyway and live of your savings.

 

BUT and it's a big but : This is Thailand, everything will change before the new year and then it will be forgotten to safe face, i am not that worried. 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by WhatsNext

[Jingthing]

58 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Long story short, I needed a Thai Tax Identification Number (TIN) for my UK bank so as I'd jumped through the hoops to get one I thought I might as well file a return to reclaim withheld interest on my bank accounts for 2021/2022.

 

Absolute joke of a process where I had to photocopy every page of my passport & every page of my Bank Books, then complete a form about my pension income where every answer was Not Applicable (I don't receive a Pension).

 

They then asked for photo copies of every statement from my Non-Thai Bank Accounts (I have 3 in the UK & 1 in Singapore) to which I replied that I'd had 1 of these accounts since I was 7 (50 years) & another since I was 18 (39 years) so it would be impossible to get every statement from these accounts & what did they really need.  They seemed to give up at this point & say they had everything they needed & would be in touch if they needed anything else, 6 months later I still haven't received the money back & so have also gave up. 

 

Nobody in the Department (Chonburi Office across Jomtien 2nd road from Immigration) seemed to speak English so I cannot see how they can cope with a massive increase in English speaking foreigners filing tax returns neither mind other nationalities.

 

Even if we have everything converted to Thai for them, how are they going to cope when people go in to ask questions/seek clarification. 

 

 

As I would have expected. OMG.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

No tax clearance certificate, no visa/re-entry permit or visa, the US used to do similar with green card holders.

 

I can see how fun it would be matching tax years and visa extension dates.

Luckily (or not) for me, they usually pretty much coincide.

[keithsimmonds]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Long story short, I needed a Thai Tax Identification Number (TIN) for my UK bank so as I'd jumped through the hoops to get one I thought I might as well file a return to reclaim withheld interest on my bank accounts for 2021/2022.

 

Absolute joke of a process where I had to photocopy every page of my passport & every page of my Bank Books, then complete a form about my pension income where every answer was Not Applicable (I don't receive a Pension).

 

They then asked for photo copies of every statement from my Non-Thai Bank Accounts (I have 3 in the UK & 1 in Singapore) to which I replied that I'd had 1 of these accounts since I was 7 (50 years) & another since I was 18 (39 years) so it would be impossible to get every statement from these accounts & what did they really need.  They seemed to give up at this point & say they had everything they needed & would be in touch if they needed anything else, 6 months later I still haven't received the money back & so have also gave up. 

 

Nobody in the Department (Chonburi Office across Jomtien 2nd road from Immigration) seemed to speak English so I cannot see how they can cope with a massive increase in English speaking foreigners filing tax returns neither mind other nationalities.

 

Even if we have everything converted to Thai for them, how are they going to cope when people go in to ask questions/seek clarification. 

 

 

I had that experience with that same office 4years ago and went in there every 90 days (while Reporting) to find out where is "my withheld Tax Rebate"  (no reply).....on the 3rd occasion i was sent to the 2nd floor,filled out a form,(sorry cant remember what)and 4 weeks later a check/payment receipt arrived in the post.

Haven,t been back there for 2 years now as Tax is no longer being witheld.

[Mike Lister]

28 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I can see how fun it would be matching tax years and visa extension dates.

Luckily (or not) for me, they usually pretty much coincide.

Ditto, to within three weeks in my case, purposely.

[crazykopite]

Philippines has always appealed to me 180 days in both countries is more appealing however as the UK has an agreement with Thailand im not expecting things to change as the UK enjoys taxing my pensions each month I will have enough funds in my k  bank to see me through the first 4/6 months !

[UKresonant]

Just now, Mike Teavee said:

Long story short, I needed a Thai Tax Identification Number (TIN) for my UK bank so as I'd jumped through the hoops to get one I thought I might as well file a return to reclaim withheld interest on my bank accounts for 2021/2022.

 

Absolute joke of a process where I had to photocopy every page of my passport & every page of my Bank Books, then complete a form about my pension income where every answer was Not Applicable (I don't receive a Pension).

 

They then asked for photo copies of every statement from my Non-Thai Bank Accounts (I have 3 in the UK & 1 in Singapore) to which I replied that I'd had 1 of these accounts since I was 7 (50 years) & another since I was 18 (39 years) so it would be impossible to get every statement from these accounts & what did they really need.  They seemed to give up at this point & say they had everything they needed & would be in touch if they needed anything else, 6 months later I still haven't received the money back & so have also gave up. 

 

Nobody in the Department (Chonburi Office across Jomtien 2nd road from Immigration) seemed to speak English so I cannot see how they can cope with a massive increase in English speaking foreigners filing tax returns neither mind other nationalities.

 

Even if we have everything converted to Thai for them, how are they going to cope when people go in to ask questions/seek clarification. 

 

 

 

"They then asked for photo copies of every statement from my Non-Thai Bank Accounts (I have 3 in the UK ..)"

Wow totally impossible if I were in Thailand to compile such information, even if in PDF download I would anticipate.

[I phoned one of my UK banks up (call centre A=Yes) back in May this year, I was wishing to pin an example of one months net pension income on a non-O application. Went to the Branch, (which is now a 10 mile round trip compared with a walk down the High street),  asked if they could Stamp the extract showing 25th April - 24th May , to show one months Pensions paid in  (as two minor pensions Started in April), "We no longer have a branch stamp" also they would have  to take the extract, but then could not manipulate their own software, best effort was a quarterly extract 1st March - to that Day the 25th May, stamp "Certified true Copy" sign it and put the branch address hand written and signed, Branch staff were trying to help, but just did not have the tools. Pined another banks paper statement scan on the application which could also be used]

 

I was going to proceed on the basis of having one UK account and only remit fully taxed net income from there, with trail, any other UK accounts should not be relevant if no credit of funds from them to that account. If they are considering they want to pick, what they think  is remitted, would seem the same as the Global income scenario if they do. Will probably proceed this way anyway, and await more RD clarity and custom and practice posts to emerge.

 

Also curious if I could still gift to my wife, whilst I am non-resident, savings from previous years, with trail, under the new arrangements, or whether she would get hammered for Tax on any remittance anyway.  Another potential problem.

 

 

 

 

[Aldo123]

Given the above recent arguments, I don't see why so many think this will not affect them. Seems pretty obvious to me. If you stay here longer than 180 days, the Immigration office will require to see your Thai tax return before they renew your O-whatever-extension visa. Showing them some Thai-US, UK or Aus tax return and waving the Double Taxation Treaty will mean nothing to them. This isn't new. Anyone on a B visa then a Thai work permit does this (or maybe their company does it).

 

As others have said, anyone - including pensioners - living here more than 180 days next year will need to fill out, file and receive back the Thai RD's 2024 tax assessment/return and tax receipt showing what you paid that year (or confirmation from the filing that you own nothing - presumably as you show the taxes paid in the Double Taxation Treaty country's tax return). Only then will you get a new visa. As the article mentioned, that could take a couple of years to work out getting all the foreign paperwork together. Visas might be renewed on a exceptional basis during that transition period.

 

If the new plan to tax all foreign income is confirmed to be based on global incomes, the bill will be high, if you've so far avoided paying tax on it in your home country (e.g. because you are a non-resident there) and the amount could therefore be high in Thailand. If it's based only on foreign remittances (each documented and maybe tax withheld by the Thai receiving bank), then maybe easier (to file) and cheaper and smoother for the visa renewal (retirement, marriage, etc). Meantime, fill your Thai boots/bank accounts with foreign remittances before 31 December and live off that ass long as you can.

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, Aldo123 said:

Given the above recent arguments, I don't see why so many think this will not affect them. Seems pretty obvious to me. If you stay here longer than 180 days, the Immigration office will require to see your Thai tax return before they renew your O-whatever-extension visa. Showing them some Thai-US, UK or Aus tax return and waving the Double Taxation Treaty will mean nothing to them. This isn't new. Anyone on a B visa then a Thai work permit does this (or maybe their company does it).

 

As others have said, anyone - including pensioners - living here more than 180 days next year will need to fill out, file and receive back the Thai RD's 2024 tax assessment/return and tax receipt showing what you paid that year (or confirmation from the filing that you own nothing - presumably as you show the taxes paid in the Double Taxation Treaty country's tax return). Only then will you get a new visa. As the article mentioned, that could take a couple of years to work out getting all the foreign paperwork together. Visas might be renewed on a exceptional basis during that transition period.

 

If the new plan to tax all foreign income is confirmed to be based on global incomes, the bill will be high, if you've so far avoided paying tax on it in your home country (e.g. because you are a non-resident there) and the amount could therefore be high in Thailand. If it's based only on foreign remittances (each documented and maybe tax withheld by the Thai receiving bank), then maybe easier (to file) and cheaper and smoother for the visa renewal (retirement, marriage, etc). Meantime, fill your Thai boots/bank accounts with foreign remittances before 31 December and live off that ass long as you can.

So what's so difficult about that, I've filed taxes here for years, it's a 15 minute job that costs nothing. If others do the same and ultimately find out they have tax to pay, they may have decisions to make or they may need to adjust their money transfers.

[Morch]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

So what's so difficult about that, I've filed taxes here for years, it's a 15 minute job that costs nothing. If others do the same and ultimately find out they have tax to pay, they may have decisions to make or they may need to adjust their money transfers.

 

I think it's the transition thing that's worrisome - people who haven't done this before would not welcome more Thai bureaucracy and paperwork (all the more so when it could cost them), and what (if any) adjustments should be made. it's that uncertainty.

 

Same thing, whenever they introduce some new immigration hassle - a vague notice, people get upset and worried, relevant officers clueless and the whole thing takes time to get in gear, then either stays or scrapped. Once ironed out, it's less of an issue, until then - depends.

[scorecard]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I think it's the transition thing that's worrisome - people who haven't done this before would not welcome more Thai bureaucracy and paperwork (all the more so when it could cost them), and what (if any) adjustments should be made. it's that uncertainty.

 

Same thing, whenever they introduce some new immigration hassle - a vague notice, people get upset and worried, relevant officers clueless and the whole thing takes time to get in gear, then either stays or scrapped. Once ironed out, it's less of an issue, until then - depends.

 

"Same thing, whenever they introduce some new immigration hassle - a vague notice....."

 

But the "vague notice" is that the fault of the immigration bureau or just very poor reporting / journalist skills?

 

(I wrote journalist skills but that's a skill which is very rare in LOS!)  

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

"Same thing, whenever they introduce some new immigration hassle - a vague notice....."

 

But the "vague notice" is that the fault of the immigration bureau or just very poor reporting / journalist skills?

 

(I wrote journalist skills but that's a skill which is very rare in LOS!)  

 

I think often enough it's both. I recall instances were immigration officers were baffled by new regulations, or weren't 100% sure what was required. All the more so when two different branches of Thai government are involved, making it a three-way.