O/A visa and insurance experience today

[KeeTua]

1 hour ago, Maestro said:

2 hours ago, Max69xl said:

Many of us have read the police order and it's in my opinion not that hard to understand. The problem will most likely be the confusion at local immigration offices and immigration at Suvarnabhumi.  

 

For the immigration officials at the entry points (airports, land borders) it is the Memorandum 0029.161/W 4603 dated 27.09.2019 they have to understand and implement, not the Police Order 548/2562.

I think you nailed it there.

 

These early reports indicate IOs at the airport are following the memorandum correctly "effective from October 31st, 2019 onwards"

 

Now we just need to wait to see how IOs doing extensions of stay follow the police order. If they do follow it as written, this will apply to all O-A extensions of stay.

 

The wording looks very clear to me. No implied grandfathering.

[LivinLOS]

12 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

Paragraph 3 of the Cabinet resolution on 2 April 2019 has already laid the basis for the expansion of the health insurance requirements to other groups of foreigners:

 

 

Well spotted !!! 

 

They are telling us in no uncertain terms.. Thai style !! 

[Thaidream]

19 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Reading this one can understand why the IOs at entry points are applying it the way they are.

If you take this statement by itself- I would agree.  However, if you take all the documents together there is no indication it applies retroactive.  Key phrases-

 

-Applies only to O-A Visa issued after 31 October 19

-Embassy/Consulate will mark a notation indicating  aaplicant has insurance (impossible to do if applies to OA- prior-not in force)

-Alies on second year- will be stamped in for remainder of insurance cover (most people will not be on a second year but many years of extension)

 

In my prior example of the retiree who entered on an O-A in the year 2000 and has successive extensions and is now 80- he can't get insurance.  I guess he would  go to a Thai Embassy get an O Visa and return under the O and then apply for an extension.

 

IMO since insurance is mandatory for an O-A and if indeed they make it retroactive there must be a provision for someone who cannot not obtain the insurance.  A letter of denial from one of the companies  should make the requirement waived ( The Malaysian long stay program does require insurance but the requirement is waived if the applicant cant get the insurance)  .   In addition- since the insurance is mandatory- the insurance companies should not be able to list pre existing conditions and it should be available to anyone already in Thailand.

 

There are just so many things wrong on every level with this requirement  it makes my head hurt.  Nuff said.

[Peter Denis]

2 hours ago, Martyp said:

There is a form that can be downloaded and signed by a foreign insurance company. Everyone says a foreign insurance company would never sign the form. So far I’ve only seen one post of someone claiming to have used the form but we don’t have any details on that. 

Also, the signed certificate by the foreign health-insurance company that the HI policy you have meets the specific requirements for health-insurance as defined by the thai authorities, is ONLY allowed when applying for your OA Visa at your home-country's thai embassy/consulate.  And the embassy/consulate will - on approval - add a note on your OA Visa that you meet the HI requirement.  Once you are in Thailand, the option of using such a certificate is not there anymore, and you are 'stuck' with the policies as offered by thai-approved insurance companies. 

[britishjohn]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

You get stamped in for only the time remaining on your insurance. It is going to be a  hassle for people who travel out of the country often esoecially if on short notice. If just making 1 trip towards the end of the visa period to get another year, you just make sure to renew your insurance before that. Modt policies can be renewed in advance of the actual expiration date 

So if I buy Thai insurance now just to ensure I'm allowed in, when I come to apply for an extension in 3 months, I would only get an extension for 9 months and not a year !

[KeeTua]

16 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

If you take this statement by itself- I would agree.  However, if you take all the documents together there is no indication it applies retroactive.  Key phrases-

 

-Applies only to O-A Visa issued after 31 October 19

Please point me to one of the official documents that says this:

"-Applies only to O-A Visa issued after 31 October 19"

Thanks

[Martyp]

9 minutes ago, britishjohn said:

So if I buy Thai insurance now just to ensure I'm allowed in, when I come to apply for an extension in 3 months, I would only get an extension for 9 months and not a year !

I would discuss your plan with your insurance agent and see if they could synchronize your coverage with your extension date and adjust the fee accordingly. 

[Mango Bob]

13 minutes ago, britishjohn said:

So if I buy Thai insurance now just to ensure I'm allowed in, when I come to apply for an extension in 3 months, I would only get an extension for 9 months and not a year !

Talk with your insurance agent.  I was told they would refund you for the 3 months and start a new policy at the time for your next extension.

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

The doccument I refer to is the actual Police Order in English and Thai which gives the effective date as 31 October 2019 and states only applies to O-A Visa.

 

The other Memoranda  refer to implementation- such as the Embassy marking the passport with a note re insurance.  Others refer to extnesions but my thinking is that the extension requirements apply only to  an O-A issued after  October 31, 2019 as at some point the person may go out of Thailand and re-enter (show the insurance again) and eventually some will extend their stay for a year by going to  Immigration- since the original O-A will be dated after 31 October 2019- subject to insurance.

 

In none of the docucments I have read does it say the order applies to anyone having an O-A original Visa PRIOR to 31 October 2019.   If the intent was to make this order retroactive- IMO it would have to have some implementation memo saying that was the case.  Have I missed seeing this docucment and does it exist?

 

Thank you. I can see it more clearly now. Two excerpts from Police Order 548/2562:

 

 

 

Looking at these two excerpts next to each other I must admit that it does not seem unreasonable to interpret the opening line of the new clause 2.22(60) to mean "Only an alien who has been granted a Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A before 31 October 2019 must buy..."

 

Personally, I never made that link but you have made me think now and much as I would hate this to be the case I still believe that 2.22(6) is meant to apply for any foreigner who at any time in the past arrived in Thailand with an O-A visa and at that time was given permission to stay (arrival stamp) on the basis of that visa and optionally subsequently got extensions of that permission to stay.

 

We shall have to wait and see how this plays out but the reports from members so far do not look promising.

 

P.S. Having had another look at clause 2.22 I see that there seems, in fact, to be some grandfathering in 2.22(7), but only for foreigners who entered Thailand before 21 October 1998.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Maestro
added postscript

[wgdanson]

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Do you know which airport he arrived at?

My mate just arrived today at Swampy and was told exactly the same. Given 30days, told to get insurance, go out of Thaialnd & return within 30 days.

[LivinLOS]

3 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

Thank you. I can see it more clearly now. Two excerpts from Police Order 548/2562:

 

 

 

Looking at these two excerpts next to each other I must admit that it does not seem unreasonable to interpret the opening line of the new clause 2.22(60) to mean "Only an alien who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A before 31 October 2019 must buy..."

 

Personally, I never made that link but you have made me think now and much as I would hate this to be the case I still believe that 2.22(6) is meant to apply for any foreigner who at any time in the past arrived in Thailand with an O-A visa and at that time was given permission to stay (arrival stamp) on the basis of that visa.

 

We shall have to wait and see how this plays out but the reports from members so far do not look promising.

I cant read it that way.. 

 

Effective from this date.... The following conditions must be met... 

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, LivinLOS said:

I cant read it that way.. 

 

Effective from this date.... The following conditions must be met... 

Yep, that's how i read it... Effective 31st October anybody entering on/extending a Non-OA has to have insurance 

 

 

[GeorgeCross]

37 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Applies only to O-A Visa issued after 31 October 19

 

please where does it state this?

[jackdd]

35 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

IMO since insurance is mandatory for an O-A and if indeed they make it retroactive there must be a provision for someone who cannot not obtain the insurance.  A letter of denial from one of the companies  should make the requirement waived

It's not retroactive, people who are already in the country may stay even without insurance, until their permission of stay ends.

But from now on, if you enter Thailand on a non-OA visa, you are required to have health insurance.

 

Thailand doesn't offer a visa for everybody in every situation, if somebody doesn't fullfill the requirements he just can't get this visa.

Using your argumentation we could also demand that for somebody without Thai family and who isn't working or studying in Thailand, Thailand should waive the 50 year age requirement for the non-OA visa to allow this person to stay longer in Thailand.

[sometimewoodworker]

I have had contact with a gentleman who is currently using an extension of stay that was given prior to October the 31st. He entered BKK airport today (November 6) with a reentry permit. No insurance was required 

 

He felt that his experience would be of benefit. As I don’t know the policy of linking to outside websites here is his report.

Quote

Sitting at Swampy airport typing this, having come through immigration without incident about an hour ago.

IO got a bit of a panicked look when he saw the AO visa, and spoke to the guy in the adjacent booth. That guy saw my re-entry permit, and told him to stamp me in until late July 2020. Insurance not mentioned. 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

6 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

please where does it state this?

It’s clear in the police order. 
 

you did notice the effective date?

[AAArdvark]

21 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

My mate just arrived today at Swampy and was told exactly the same. Given 30days, told to get insurance, go out of Thaialnd & return within 30 days.

Why "Go out of Thailand"?  Can't he get the insurance and just go to the local immigration?

[jackdd]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It’s clear in the police order. 
 

you did notice the effective date?

Which means that everybody entering after this date needs to fulfill the requirements.

Doesn't matter when the visa was issued, unless there would be a specific paragraph stating that visas issued prior to this date were exempt, but looks like this doesn't exist.

 

Just now, AAArdvark said:

Why "Go out of Thailand"?  Can't he get the insurance and just go to the local immigration?

I think you can't activate an entry of a visa which you got outside of Thailand while being in Thailand, afaik this is only possible if you got the visa in Thailand.

Edited November 6, 2019 by jackdd

[LivinLOS]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I have had contact with a gentleman who is currently using an extension of stay that was given prior to October the 31st. He entered BKK airport today (November 6) with a reentry permit. No insurance was required 

 

He felt that his experience would be of benefit. As I don’t know the policy of linking to outside websites here is his report.

 

Superb.. as expected and as per the logic and text of the law imo. 

Starting to feel like for all the criticism, they have got this exactly right, as per the text of the law, in all the reported locations so far. Shocked !! 

[LivinLOS]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It’s clear in the police order. 
 

you did notice the effective date?

yes.. from this date the following demands are effective to enter the kingdom. 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Almost certainly insurance  will be required when you enter Thailand if you have had to have insurance when you apply for an extension, as that information is in the police order and your permission to stay is governed by the period of your insurance if that is shorter than you would otherwise get.

 

But as has now been proved insurance is (almost certainly) not required if you did not need insurance for your  extension.

Edited November 6, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

But as has now been proved insurance is (almost certainly) not required if you did not need insurance for your visa or extension.

How was this proved? Here were reports of two people who got a visa exempt stamp because they didn't have the insurance when they entered Thailand. This actually disproved what you say.

Edited November 6, 2019 by jackdd

[Sheryl]

10 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I have had contact with a gentleman who is currently using an extension of stay that was given prior to October the 31st. He entered BKK airport today (November 6) with a reentry permit. No insurance was required 

 

He felt that his experience would be of benefit. As I don’t know the policy of linking to outside websites here is his report.

 

Entering on a re-entry visa is entirely different from making an entry on a still valid visa or doing an in country extension of stay.

 

No new permission of stay is generated by entering on a RE permit and there has never been a case that I know of,  of having to show proof of having met/meeting the conditions of the already granted permission of stay on entry.

 

Furthermore thep olice order explicitly states that the requirement does nto pertain to existing permissions of stay.

[sometimewoodworker]

Redundant 

Edited November 6, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, jackdd said:

How was this proved? Here were reports of two people who got a visa exempt stamp because they didn't have the insurance when they entered Thailand. This actually disproved what you say.

 

4 today by my count.

[Maestro]

23 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

I cant read it that way.. 

 

Effective from this date.... The following conditions must be met... 

 

It is the "...have been granted...", without indication of the date when the O-A was granted, that I take to mean granted at any time prior to the application for extension.

 

Incidentally, I believe that "was granted" would have been a more accurate translation than "has been granted"

[Max69xl]

8 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Which means that everybody entering after this date needs to fulfill the requirements.

Doesn't matter when the visa was issued, unless there would be a specific paragraph stating that visas issued prior to this date were exempt, but looks like this doesn't exist.

 

I think you can't activate an entry of a visa which you got outside of Thailand while being in Thailand, afaik this is only possible if you got the visa in Thailand.

This is not what an immigration officer told another guy at the airport. He got 30 days to get an insurance in Thailand and then go to the local Immigration office to activate his O-A Visa.

[Mango Bob]

10 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Almost certainly insurance  will be required when you enter Thailand if you have had to have insurance when you apply for a visa or extension, as that information is in the police order and your permission to stay is governed by the period of your insurance if that is shorter than you would otherwise get.

 

But as has now been proved insurance is (almost certainly) not required if you did not need insurance for your visa or extension.

If you are on a re entry permit from a extension of stay prior to 31 Oct 19 you will not need insurance until your next extension of stay.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Mango Bob

[Maestro]

16 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I have had contact with a gentleman who is currently using an extension of stay that was given prior to October the 31st. He entered BKK airport today (November 6) with a reentry permit. No insurance was required 

 

This topic is about entry with an O-A visa (obtained from a Thai embassy or consulate), not about entry with a re-entry permit.

[Momofarang]

1 hour ago, Mango Bob said:

I was told this yesterday by the agent.  It is only on certain policies not all of them.  The Standard Extra policy they said I could.

The Standard Extra has a max of 780000 so if one takes off the the max deductible of 300000 it leaves a cover of 480000. This is my understanding. And would make sense for the hospitals as many bills will exceed the puny 400000 required by Immifrakkinggration.