Brexit brinkmanship: EU orders UK to scrap plan for treaty breach, UK refuses

[polpott]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Yes, because the only way Rees Mogg could pay the rent was to bet against Britain and then destroy it ????.

 

Time for a new tin foil hat I think. 

There's a bit more than the rent involved. We're talking billions. And its not just Mogg, Johnson's backers are in the same boat. They have too much invested for it to fail now. Why do you think Johnson threw a spanner in the works just as it was looking likely we would get a deal?

 

I think you need to take your tinfoil hat off.

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, polpott said:

Because they don't want to make it too obvious to their supporters that a hard Brexit is what they've wanted all along. They're trying to make the no deal Brexit all the EU's fault. Not hard with the simple souls that support them.

Back to the insults again? Fine. But as it seems that the EU will not give way on anything substantial and will continue to try to dictate these "negotiations" as if we were still a member, then it is obvious to even a simple soul like me that no deal is the only outcome. So, we might as well go now and wait to see what will happen when everyone wakes up after all this nonsense. 

[JonnyF]

16 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

OK fishing waters back but not the quotas. English fishermen have sold over half of their fishing quotas to foreign boats. Or is this another agreement that you will be happy to renege on?

 

Who pays the tariffs? Oh yeah that will be the consumers. You voted to make stuff you buy more expensive. 

 

100% control of our borders? Only if you dont sign a trade deal with India and probably China.

 

No we are utterly alone when it comes to funding the damage from corona. UK national debt now stands at over 2 trillion pounds.

 

Free to make trade deals. Yes that is correct. But when it comes to a trade deal with or largest partner, the EU, you wont be getting one. Nor does it seem you want one. Prepared to sell off the NHS for a trade deal with the USA? Is that an acceptable price to pay? Or what about allowing Indians easier access to our borders if we want a deal with them? Goodness knows what China will demand. 

 

No ECJ jurisdiction. OK thats true. Now tell me which rulings by the ECJ do you personally have a problem with?

 

No level playing field? What does that even mean? You want the UK to become some kind of 3rd world country so we are more competitive? Really? Well I suppose we are heading that way with a tinpot dictator who ignores international treaties whenever the mood takes him. Will he be declaring himself Lord Protector and disbanding the Royal familly?

 

No more wealth transfer to basket case countries? We are going to be a basket case country. Us. And no-one is going to help us.

 

100% sovereignty? Again what does that even mean? You understand you have to pay to be a member of the WTO and they set the rules? 100% sovereignty. Absolute nonsense.

 

Barnier banished..... yeah I bet they will be devastated. They were so looking forward to their holiday in Clacton as well. Shame really.

 

Sterling recovering? In your dreams. Its only ticking up today because there is a possibility Johnsons isolationist bill might get defeated.

 

Blue passports. Or were they black? Nobody seems to be able to remember. Which shows what a big deal it really was. Tell me something. Which EU law dictated what the colour of passports should be? I will give you a clue. There was none. You could have had your passport any colour you wanted it to be while STILL in the EU. Oh and tell me where these new passports are being printed? You're gonna love this.

Poland. 

 

    

We can either pay tariffs on EU goods or more likely, buy a lot more from countries that are prepared to sign a fair FTA with the UK. So the EU lose more sales to "treasure island" due to their obstinacy.

 

Yes border control. We're not going to allow freedom of movement with China or India, that's absurd.

 

Corona bailout fund? Yes our money will be used to bail out the UK as we see fit. No more wealth transfer to the EU states as ordered by Brussels. You think the EU was going to give us more of that fund than we paid in? ????

 

Selling off the NHS? More nonsense. Laughable. Never going to happen. We might buy some drugs from the US instead of the EU. Big deal. I hope we do, more loss of sales for the EU.

 

Not being bound by an EU controlled level playing field makes us third world? You need to lay off that EU Koolaid. So Japan, South Korea, Australia, Canada, USA etc. are third world because they don't follow EU rules. Mmmmm OKayyyyyy.

 

We're not sovereign if we trade on WTO terms? Are you serious? In that case none of the 164 countries that trade on WTO rules are sovereign 555.

 

The passport comment was just a wind up. Glad you took the bait.????

 

The rest of your post is just Brit hating, left wing, liberal self loathing rubbish. As usual. 

[luckyluke]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

then it is obvious to even a simple soul like me that no deal is the only outcome. So, we might as well go now

Sure, except it doesn't happen.

The truth is somewhere out there, it will left everyone perplex.

[david555]

 (finally but very  reluctantly .....????  )

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/14/david-cameron-joins-ex-pms-warning-against-boris-johnsons-brexit-bill

David Cameron joins ex-PMs warning against Boris Johnson's Brexit bill 
Ex-attorney general Geoffrey Cox says breaking international law risks damaging UK’s standing

 

Peter Walker Political correspondent
 @peterwalker99 
Mon 14 Sep 2020 10.16 BST 

 

 

David Cameron has become the third former Conservative prime minister to express disquiet about Boris Johnson’s proposal to breach international law by unilaterally redrafting part of the Brexit deal with the EU, saying he had “misgivings” about the idea.

In comments on Monday, before MPs began debating the internal market bill that sets out the plans, Cameron said: “Passing an act of parliament and then going on to break an international treaty obligation is the very, very last thing you should contemplate. “It should be an absolute final resort. So, I do have misgivings about what’s being proposed.”

Theresa May and John Major have warned in stronger terms about the plans, saying they could damage the UK’s international reputation, as has another former Conservative leader, Michael Howard. Cameron said he also had to consider that the UK was “in a vital negotiation with the EU to get a deal and I think we have to keep that context, that big prize in mind”.He added: “And that’s why I have perhaps held back from saying more up to now.”

Edited September 14, 2020 by david555

[david555]

58 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Back to the insults again? Fine. But as it seems that the EU will not give way on anything substantial and will continue to try to dictate these "negotiations" as if we were still a member, then it is obvious to even a simple soul like me that no deal is the only outcome. So, we might as well go now and wait to see what will happen when everyone wakes up after all this nonsense. 

"So, we might as well go now and wait to see what will happen when everyone wakes up after all this nonsense. "

 

 

So do you only realize that  now .....???? ?  A 3 months after the referendum decision to leave the E.U.  I  realized that already …,that this would not be a friendly divorce …. after reading so many brexiteers mantras …. as " they need us more than we need them "... "I can be a very difficult lady  (PM May...)  etc ,

 

that is not the best way to start a negotiation ….

[bannork]

The Times today 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

We can either pay tariffs on EU goods or more likely, buy a lot more from countries that are prepared to sign a fair FTA with the UK. So the EU lose more sales to "treasure island" due to their obstinacy.

 

Yes border control. We're not going to allow freedom of movement with China or India, that's absurd.

 

Corona bailout fund? Yes our money will be used to bail out the UK as we see fit. No more wealth transfer to the EU states as ordered by Brussels. You think the EU was going to give us more of that fund than we paid in? ????

 

Selling off the NHS? More nonsense. Laughable. Never going to happen. We might buy some drugs from the US instead of the EU. Big deal. I hope we do, more loss of sales for the EU.

 

Not being bound by an EU controlled level playing field makes us third world? You need to lay off that EU Koolaid. So Japan, South Korea, Australia, Canada, USA etc. are third world because they don't follow EU rules. Mmmmm OKayyyyyy.

 

We're not sovereign if we trade on WTO terms? Are you serious? In that case none of the 164 countries that trade on WTO rules are sovereign 555.

 

The passport comment was just a wind up. Glad you took the bait.????

 

The rest of your post is just Brit hating, left wing, liberal self loathing rubbish. As usual. 

Treasure island. Wow thanks for that. Its the best laugh I've had in a while.

OK so apart from Japan, which by the way is not ratified yet, which major trading blocks or countries do we have a FTA with? Why yes. Its zero. And as for the much vaunted Japan deal. According to the FT its a far better deal for Japan than it is for us. Trade with Japan accounts for a mighty 2% of our exports.

 

The article also states.

https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b4-4065-9f83-31b2247fa178

"The UK’s new trade deal with Japan commits it to tougher restrictions on state aid than the ones it is currently offering the EU in the Brexit talks, potentially undermining its negotiating position with Brussels. In the bilateral UK-Japan agreement announced in principle on Friday, London and Tokyo have agreed to replicate the restrictions on subsidies in the EU-Japan deal that went into effect last year. That agreement prohibits the governments from indefinitely guaranteeing the debts of struggling companies or providing an open-ended bailout without a clear restructuring plan in place. By contrast, the UK has repeatedly told the EU that it must have total freedom over state aid after the end of the Brexit transition period with complete autonomy over future subsidy decisions, subject to WTO rules."

 

What was that you were saying about sovereignty? ????

 

 

So come January we will be trading with almost everyone on WTO terms. That means tariffs. More importantly it means tariffs on goods to and from the EU. Our biggest trading partner. Do you think companies in the UK can find new markets overnight?

While part of the EU we were already trading globally. So any opportunities to sell British goods anywhere was already being done. 

 

Hey we could very well have gotten more out of the corona bail out fund than we put in given our economy has been the hardest hit in the EU. 

 

If you think for a second American healthcare was going to stop at just selling medication then you are deluded mate. Trump said as much. Everything is up for grabs. 

 

For the EU the difference between us, Canada, the USA, South Korea etc is the amount of trade done. What the Torys dream of is turning the UK into a cheap labour paradise with little or no workers rights.

 

My point about sovereignty obviously went right over your head. You point to it like its some kind of holly grail for doing Brexit. I dont think any of you have a clue as to what sovereignty actually means. Its just a buzz word you guys throw around. 

 

Enjoy your Polish made passport ????. 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Unlike the EU. Who break their own laws as soon as it suits them. Or the EU member states that break EU treaties

Some examples of this, please.

 

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Nobody cares about Johnson clarifying a contradiction in the WA that could have compromised the GFA.

Hardly clarifying a contradiction!

 

His deal, except for a few cases of using alternative wording such as replacing 'adequate' with 'appropriate,' was identical to May's; apart from this one vital aspect. Replacing May's Irish backstop is removed, and replacing it with a new protocol on Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. A protocol which placed a de facto customs border down the Irish Sea.

 

This was hailed by most Brexiteers at the time as a triumph, and most of them also criticised Parliament for not accepting it. As Boris needed the support of Ulster Unionist parties to get it through, support they rightly denied him as this deal betrayed the people of Northern Ireland, Johnson called a 'back me or sack me' general election.

 

Having won that election based upon his promise to implement that agreement, having signed the agreement last January; he's now decided he doesn't want the most controversial part of it any more. Despite the opposition of both Nationalists and Unionists in the province. Even the Ulster Unionist Party, who have never supported the protocol, have said that the government should not be threatening to break international law to "right a terrible wrong". (source)

 

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Japan has FTA's with the likes of Thailand (military D), Philippines (Duterte extra judicial killings), Malaysia (rampant corruption). They're not going to throw away billions in trade because Johnson is clarifying a minor point in an EU treaty. Especially during the current C19 crisis. Governments love to appear virtuous but ultimately it's all about money, much like some TV posters whose only real problem with Brexit is the fall in FX with the Baht.

Johnson is not clarifying a minor point; even the Ulster Unionists, opposed to the protocol from the start, have said that the government should not be threatening to break international law to "right a terrible wrong."

 

Every trading nation has deals with governments whose record on human rights, corruption etc. is not as one would wish. The UK has been selling arms to Saudi Arabia for decades!

 

But that is not the point. Will the Japanese parliament see Johnson's actions as a betrayal of trust? Will they decide this means he cannot be trusted? Will this mean they do not ratify the UK/Japan deal?

 

We will have to wait and see; but this wont have helped them decide Boris can be trusted! No matter how much the deal is worth on paper, and to Japan it's not much more than the £1.9 billion they exported to us last year, it's worthless in reality if one believes the other party is going to break it!

[7by7]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

<snip>

We're not sovereign if we trade on WTO terms? Are you serious? In that case none of the 164 countries that trade on WTO rules are sovereign 555

 It's been said that only one country in the world, Mauretania, trades solely on WTO rules; but that is not strictly correct.

 

BBC reality check (Nov 2017)

Quote

Does any other country trade on WTO rules alone?

If you look at the WTO database which lists all regional trade agreements, there is nothing for Mauritania. That's led some to suggest Mauritania is the only member to trade solely on WTO rules.

However, according to the WTO, Mauritania has joined the Economic Community of West African States, and it has preferential trade arrangements with some 20 WTO members.

There are some countries which aren't WTO members, including Algeria, Serbia and North Korea, but the WTO says all of its members have some sort of bilateral or regional trade agreement in place.

 

If trading on WTO terms alone is so wonderful and beneficial; how come no WTO member does It?

 

[orlov]

3 hours ago, polpott said:

That doesn't change by leaving the EU.

Absolutely it does. At present European law supersedes the national laws of EU members. Regaining our sovereignty is one of the most important reasons we’re leaving.

 

3 hours ago, polpott said:

That doesn't change by leaving the EU.

 

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, orlov said:

Absolutely it does. At present European law supersedes the national laws of EU members. Regaining our sovereignty is one of the most important reasons we’re leaving.

 

 

So which EU law will you be happiest to see the back of now we have our "Sovereignty"?

[7by7]

9 minutes ago, orlov said:

Absolutely it does. At present European law supersedes the national laws of EU members. Regaining our sovereignty is one of the most important reasons we’re leaving.

 

Only in matters pertaining to the EU; matters agreed to by the elected representatives of the member governments in the council of ministers or, for less important matters, elected MEPs.

 

Member states still retain sovereignty over most matters. Such as defence, foreign policy, fiscal policy, non EU immigration, education, health, criminal law etc.

 

Although in some aspects of these, especial some foreign policy areas, member states may, and do, agree to present a united front.

[Rookiescot]

I am absolutely convinced every time a Brexiteer says the word sovereignty he hears this in the background.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd6wi8nDJhU&ab_channel=A3DigitalStudio.com

 

It has become some mythical utopia which the cruel forces of the EU have somehow taken.

 

[7by7]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Yes, because the only way Rees Mogg could pay the rent was to bet against Britain and then destroy it ????.

 

Time for a new tin foil hat I think. 

Well, he did decide very early on after the referendum to move a substantial sum out of the UK investments into RoI ones so the money stayed in the EU.

 

Why was that, do you think? I doubt it was due to a fondness for Guinness or Kerrygold!

[7by7]

Thanks to @candide for the reminder in another topic of what Johnson said about the agreement last January.

 

Brexit: Boris Johnson signs withdrawal agreement in Downing Street

 

"The prime minister hailed a "fantastic moment" for the country....

He said he hoped it would "bring to an end far too many years of argument and division".......

"The signing is a fantastic moment, which finally delivers the result of the 2016 referendum......"

 

No mention anywhere last January by Boris nor any of his supporters of the Northern Irish Protocol being the minor matter requiring clarification some members here are now claiming it to be in their desperate attempts to justify Boris going back on his word!

 

 

[CorpusChristie]

39 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So which EU law will you be happiest to see the back of now we have our "Sovereignty"?

We now dont have to pay 350 million per week to be a member , which was an E.U law

[7by7]

6 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

We now dont have to pay 350 million per week to be a member , which was an E.U law

Is that all you can come up with!

 

A Boris/Cummings lie; we never did pay that amount to the EU!

 

The actual amount we did pay after the rebate, even taking into account EU investment and grants in the UK, was high enough; why did they feel the need to lie about it and why do you still feel the need to perpetuate that lie?

 

Of course, as has been shown many times, the loss to the UK's GDP caused by Brexit is far more than even the higher figure. Even the Daily Express agreed with that!

 

[elliss]

10 hours ago, david555 said:

I wonder if little dictator is not yet considering declaring "emergance situation "or "martial law "....seeing his situation envolving.......Oh !! …  I forgot , .....or prorogation of parliament maybe  once more ..?????  ????

 

   One thing is for sure .

   The opposition if any ,  aka the Labour party  . 

   Will remain as, silent socialists..  Thx,  Tory Blair ..

     Lloyd George . Ah those were the days ..

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by elliss

[Opl]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

It has become some mythical utopia which the cruel forces of the EU have somehow taken.

no, it's the colour of the passport that makes all the difference

[CorpusChristie]

1 minute ago, Opl said:

no, it's the colour of the passport that makes all the difference

Yes, we go abroad in future , they will realise that we arent foreigners anymore, now we got our blue passports back

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Yes, we go abroad in future , they will realise that we arent foreigners anymore, now we got our blue passports back

You need to read that back to yourself slowly.

[candide]

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Treasure island. Wow thanks for that. Its the best laugh I've had in a while.

OK so apart from Japan, which by the way is not ratified yet, which major trading blocks or countries do we have a FTA with? Why yes. Its zero. And as for the much vaunted Japan deal. According to the FT its a far better deal for Japan than it is for us. Trade with Japan accounts for a mighty 2% of our exports.

 

The article also states.

https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b4-4065-9f83-31b2247fa178

"The UK’s new trade deal with Japan commits it to tougher restrictions on state aid than the ones it is currently offering the EU in the Brexit talks, potentially undermining its negotiating position with Brussels. In the bilateral UK-Japan agreement announced in principle on Friday, London and Tokyo have agreed to replicate the restrictions on subsidies in the EU-Japan deal that went into effect last year. That agreement prohibits the governments from indefinitely guaranteeing the debts of struggling companies or providing an open-ended bailout without a clear restructuring plan in place. By contrast, the UK has repeatedly told the EU that it must have total freedom over state aid after the end of the Brexit transition period with complete autonomy over future subsidy decisions, subject to WTO rules."

 

What was that you were saying about sovereignty? ????

 

 

So come January we will be trading with almost everyone on WTO terms. That means tariffs. More importantly it means tariffs on goods to and from the EU. Our biggest trading partner. Do you think companies in the UK can find new markets overnight?

While part of the EU we were already trading globally. So any opportunities to sell British goods anywhere was already being done. 

 

Hey we could very well have gotten more out of the corona bail out fund than we put in given our economy has been the hardest hit in the EU. 

 

If you think for a second American healthcare was going to stop at just selling medication then you are deluded mate. Trump said as much. Everything is up for grabs. 

 

For the EU the difference between us, Canada, the USA, South Korea etc is the amount of trade done. What the Torys dream of is turning the UK into a cheap labour paradise with little or no workers rights.

 

My point about sovereignty obviously went right over your head. You point to it like its some kind of holly grail for doing Brexit. I dont think any of you have a clue as to what sovereignty actually means. Its just a buzz word you guys throw around. 

 

Enjoy your Polish made passport ????. 

Brilliant! UK abdicating its sovereignty to the Land of the Rising Sun.

 

To the Krauts, never! But to the Japs, ok! ????

Edited September 14, 2020 by candide

[nauseus]

42 minutes ago, candide said:

Brilliant! UK abdicating its sovereignty to the Land of the Rising Sun.

 

To the Krauts, never! But to the Japs, ok! ????

Oh no.

[Airbagwill]

19 hours ago, Victornoir said:

The majority of the English

sums up that kind of bigoted remark?

[Srikcir]

14 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Treasure island. Wow thanks for that. Its the best laugh I've had in a while.

OK so apart from Japan, which by the way is not ratified yet, which major trading blocks or countries do we have a FTA with? Why yes. Its zero. And as for the much vaunted Japan deal. According to the FT its a far better deal for Japan than it is for us. Trade with Japan accounts for a mighty 2% of our exports.

 

The article also states.

https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b4-4065-9f83-31b2247fa178

"The UK’s new trade deal with Japan commits it to tougher restrictions on state aid than the ones it is currently offering the EU in the Brexit talks, potentially undermining its negotiating position with Brussels. In the bilateral UK-Japan agreement announced in principle on Friday, London and Tokyo have agreed to replicate the restrictions on subsidies in the EU-Japan deal that went into effect last year. That agreement prohibits the governments from indefinitely guaranteeing the debts of struggling companies or providing an open-ended bailout without a clear restructuring plan in place. By contrast, the UK has repeatedly told the EU that it must have total freedom over state aid after the end of the Brexit transition period with complete autonomy over future subsidy decisions, subject to WTO rules."

 

What was that you were saying about sovereignty? ????

 

 

So come January we will be trading with almost everyone on WTO terms. That means tariffs. More importantly it means tariffs on goods to and from the EU. Our biggest trading partner. Do you think companies in the UK can find new markets overnight?

While part of the EU we were already trading globally. So any opportunities to sell British goods anywhere was already being done. 

 

Hey we could very well have gotten more out of the corona bail out fund than we put in given our economy has been the hardest hit in the EU. 

 

If you think for a second American healthcare was going to stop at just selling medication then you are deluded mate. Trump said as much. Everything is up for grabs. 

 

For the EU the difference between us, Canada, the USA, South Korea etc is the amount of trade done. What the Torys dream of is turning the UK into a cheap labour paradise with little or no workers rights.

 

My point about sovereignty obviously went right over your head. You point to it like its some kind of holly grail for doing Brexit. I dont think any of you have a clue as to what sovereignty actually means. Its just a buzz word you guys throw around. 

 

Enjoy your Polish made passport ????. 

Trade deal between UK and Japan -

A little more details are coming out.

UK has apparently agreed to greater trade restrictions with Japan than what the EU required. In part UK will have to pass news laws making UK subservient to Japanese laws and regulations. The very thing that UK refused EU demands. So UK has 'traded' part of its sovereignity for 2% trade with Japan vs 40%(?) trade with EU.

Expect the US will use the same negotiating strength with EU as it seems Boris is desparate to show UK can get trade deals outside of the EU. 

 

 

[david555]

Marvellous challenge from Ed Milliband about asking Boris which detailed part of his bill points out to the treath from E.U...... Boris speechless & embarrassed  ???? 1 minute 35 sec. of fun ....

 'He doesn't know his stuff': Ed Miliband challenges Johnson on internal market bill – video 

https://youtu.be/QG71rhV9ocI

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by david555

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, david555 said:

Marvellous challenge from Ed Milliband about asking Boris which detailed part of his bill points out to the treath from E.U...... Boris speechless & embarrassed  ???? 1 minute 35 sec. of fun ....

 'He doesn't know his stuff': Ed Miliband challenges Johnson on internal market bill – video 

https://youtu.be/QG71rhV9ocI

 

 

 

 

Careful editing footage from the free press of course!

[david555]

25 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Careful editing footage from the free press of course!

Would you expect the whole session from HOC. to be edited ?.... I guess a certain Mod  would intervene i am sure...????

 

I saw all ....including Boris his  bil introduction .

But honest on Milliband he "Boris "obstained any reply or explaination ....this time he did not prepaired his lie in detail  enough...????

 

The E. U. blocking food for the starving N.I....????.....( his imagination got carried away when he invented that i guess ...???? ) the only who tried to starve  Irish where those from the" potato war ".....not knowing details about that item ...but heared someting about.????

Edited September 15, 2020 by david555

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, david555 said:

Would you expect the whole session from HOC. to be edited ?.... I guess a certain Mod  would intervene i am sure...????

 

I saw all ....including Boris his  bil introduction .

But honest on Milliband he "Boris "obstained any reply or explaination ....this time he did not prepaired his lie in detail  enough...????

 

The E. U. blocking food for the starving N.I....????.....( his imagination got carried away when he invented that ....???? the only who tried to starve  Irish where those from the" potato war ".....not knowing details about ...but heared someting about.????

Didn't Ed Milliband break International Law when he voted to invade Iraq?

However what was Milliband doing questioning Boris, I thought that Angela Raynor was Deputy Leader of the Labour Party................... Oh wait I know.