Can a school force a minor to get vaccinate or threaten with expulsion?

[Justanotherone]

Expulsion or denial the further education of your child ?

 

99,97 survival rate for a child

 

So why would you allow your child to be forced of taking a product that has unknown effects in the long run, or being excluded from school ?

 

On top of the untested mix of vaccines.  

 

I am all for if you get your kid a shot but certainly not ok with imposing it on others that don't have blind faith in companies that historically been forced to pay billions in court for lying, false data, fraud, opiod addiction, ...

 

I know most here have blind faith in this new religion of vaccines.

 

How did we all survive the last 18 months without ?

 

How come in bangkok people can go eat out not being vaxxed but schools will be more dangerous than a mall full of people ?

 

 

[tifino]

 all I see is a paradox... 

 - if No Jab, then No Can Teach them Lesson...

 - but the vindictive nature of the act means they are still seen as teaching the kid a lesson 

 

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

It isn't just about protecting the children, it is about trying to protect them as well as those around them. Vaccination won't prevent 100% of infections or spread of Covid, but may reduce them. This may protect vulnerable family members and others by helping prevent the children from brining Covid home from school to share with their parents, grandparents, siblings and others.

 

The idea is to reduce serious illness or death in the near term. If one dies this month, what happens 20 years from now is irrelevant. If we were to wait until all possible outcomes of vaccines were completely known, we'd be waiting 30 years.  Other vaccines and drugs were rushed to use without waiting for years and years. Think Polio vaccine. Pfizer is now approved for normal use and I understand that the Thai government will use Pfizer to vaccinate schoolchildren. 

 

In the US, schoolchildren are required to have a number of vaccinations prior to attending elementary school.  My children were recently required to evidence their vaccination records going back to infancy before they were allowed to attend university in the US. Vaccine requirements are nothing new.

 

I have more faith in the medical community and their collective wisdom than in crackpot political hacks and conspiracy theorists. That does not rule out having a healthy skepticism of our leaders and their policies, but there is a difference between skepticism or criticism of policy and falling for absolutely nonsensical conspiracy theories. 

 

I can choose not to go to a restaurant to protect myself and I can prevent my family members from doing so as well. Restaurants are not really necessary and my family can pretty much avoid this risk if we want. The risk presented by the Ministry of Education ordering schools to re-open with unvaccinated students is harder to avoid. I would have to withdraw my daughter from school if I wanted to avoid this risk and there would be consequences for her future if I did so. Restaurants and schools is a false equivalency when it comes to workable risk mitigation.

 

All companies spin the truth and lie. We all need to be wary and watch out for this, but if the standard is to only patronize companies that never lie or spin, then I'm afraid we can't patronize any companies. Pfizer, for one, has a proven track record of producing pharmaceuticals that are safe and effective. While I would be wary, I would have to see some evidence that Pfizer has a particularly odious corporate culture or track record of major misdeeds before I would refuse their vaccine in the middle of an epidemic.

 

I don't have blind faith in vaccines. Nobody should. We will need to wear masks, practice physical distancing and hand hygiene for some time. Vaccines aren't a silver bullet, but they are a major part of a successful public health policy.

 

Taken to its illogical extreme, one could say that any time two or more people collaborate to gain an advantage in business or politics it is a conspiracy. In this case, all businesses are nefarious conspiracies to turn a profit and pay dividend to shareholders at the expense of consumers. This seems to be the world that many conspiracy theorists live in. I don't.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Etaoin Shrdlu
spelling and clarity

[Callmeishmael]

When school opened last year, some of the Thai teachers sat all of the P4 - P6 students down and talked at them for about 1/2 and hour about wearing masks, washing hands, etc..  They then asked me to say a few words. 

First I asked the kids what would happen if they caught Covid.  When they answered "We would die", I replied that of course they wouldn't die, 10 year olds don't die of Covid.

Then I asked them how many of lived in the same house as their grandparents.  About 1/3 of them raised their hands.  I then told them that is the reason why they should wear masks and wash their hands.  Not to protect themselves, but to protect their grandparents.

There were no vaccines a year ago, but there are now.  Students should get vaccinated to protect their grandparents and their classmates grandparents.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Callmeishmael

[Justanotherone]

The idea that young people have to risk their health to protect old people is absurd.

 

Overweight and old people are more prone to get serious covid.

 

They should get vaxxed and quarantined, not healthy people.

 

 

Covid showed how stupid people are in believing propaganda of fear.

 

1976 all over again.

 

Heart disease, cancer, diabetes = real top causes of mortality way more than anything and no jab or lockdown EVER

[248900_1469958220]

The Uk seems to be against it.....

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-advisers-decide-against-covid-vaccines-healthy-12-15-year-olds-2021-09-03/

[DavisH]

You may know your answer in November, if onsite schooling starts in Semester 2. 

One thing is guaranteed - everyone, unless you live in a cave, will get covid. Maybe not next week or next month, but it will happen. No vaccine is approved anywhere for under-12's but it is being tested in the US, I believe. A few of my 14y.o students have had pfizer. It will be a big issue for schools and parents, and plenty of questions will be asked of who has/hasn't been vaccinated. 

[cclub75]

The situation is really confusing.

 

-all the thai schools are "online" since mid may (start of new year)

 

-all international schools are "online" since end of august (start of new year)... with the exception of Koh Samui.

 

Meanwhile, there is a strange program/test "school sandbox" created apparently for... boarding schools (they can reopen onsite but with many rules : vaccine for everybody, tests every 2 weeks for children etc.)

Source : https://thethaiger.com/news/national/68-schools-to-reopen-as-part-of-sandbox-safety-zone-in-school-programme

 

Meanwhile... local governors have their say.

 

So on a national level, the CCSA might say "school open normally" (for red zone for instance)... but the "local authorities" must visit the school, give their green light... That's a huge problem.

 

I give you one example : the governor of Nakhon Ratchasima closed international schools end of june (a few days before the end of school year)... At that time, the province had 20 cases per day.... Today they still have 200 cases per day...

 

So what will he do ?

 

What's the goalpost for him ? Zero case ? Or more ?

 

Meanwhile, some international schools are looking at the "sandbox programm".... their idea is to push for vaccine : all the staff + all the children... They think it's a way to reopen faster...

 

But would the governor of Nakhon Ratchasima approuve such an idea ?

 

Meanwhile, the education minister hints that the solution is massive vaccination of ALL the children... before any school reopening normally.

Link : https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2171811/4m-students-to-be-inoculated

 

So nothing is clear... Even more confusing than usual (for thai standards).

 

Last but not least... the silence around schools is defeaning... We talk about curfew time, zoning, shoppings malls, restaurants etc.... But nobody is talking about schools.

 

[ozimoron]

Here's a clue

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/los-angeles-expected-pass-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-school-students-2021-09-09/

[MrJ2U]

There isnt any vaccines for under 12.

There talking about Sinopharm and my Wife says no way.  Theres insufficient data for under 12.

 

I understand about the worries about vaccinating children but there worried about them spreading to other people inside the cramped Thai households.

 

Delta is affecting younger children.

 

Very controversial for sure.

 

"With the delta variant, we are seeing an increased number of cases amongst children."

 

https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/how-covid-19-delta-variant-is-impacting-younger-people/

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by MrJ2U

[Jeffr2]

Immunizations have been a requirement for school entry for eons. Not sure why some are getting all wound up about this. Especially considering our current global pandemic. Jeez.

 

https://ourworldindata.org/childhood-vaccination-policies

[kingstonkid]

The problem is that students are in close proximity to others they play together and are involved in activities.  

 

Before the mask mandate was in place and it seemed to work.  The issue of vax is a new one but for Matayom students it makes sense.  

 

The problem with the younger crowd is that they touch things and pass them to another student.  They cough and sneeze and pass that to everyone.  Trying to have Pratom students especially in the younger crowd keep their mask on and wash their hands is insane.

 

Time will tell and we are not 100% sure how or when the schools will be opened but considering the choices that parents have getting your child vaccinated seems to be the smartest thing.  

1 they get out of the house

2. they will actually learn in school 

3. It gives mom dad and grandparents some relax time.

 

[ClaySmc]

On 9/7/2021 at 9:59 PM, 248900_1469958220 said:

The Uk seems to be against it.....

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-advisers-decide-against-covid-vaccines-healthy-12-15-year-olds-2021-09-03/

Seems to be old news you have there. Here's the latest:

UK plans to offer Covid vaccines to teens later this year | Financial Times (ft.com)

Looks like they were waiting for Pfizer to complete testing and get approval.
 

[bbko]

On 9/7/2021 at 3:04 PM, Justanotherone said:

Covid showed how stupid people are in believing propaganda of fear.

Oh the irony ????

[sawadee1947]

I could Inderstand your concerns.

If we old ones longing for vaccines we don't care about side effects in the future because it will not effect much......probably we'll die before.

However, our kids will have to live with those side effects for the next 70-80 years.

If there aren't any side effects....the better.????

[wwest5829]

On 9/6/2021 at 12:12 PM, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

It isn't just about protecting the children, it is about trying to protect them as well as those around them. Vaccination won't prevent 100% of infections or spread of Covid, but may reduce them. This may protect vulnerable family members and others by helping prevent the children from brining Covid home from school to share with their parents, grandparents, siblings and others.

 

The idea is to reduce serious illness or death in the near term. If one dies this month, what happens 20 years from now is irrelevant. If we were to wait until all possible outcomes of vaccines were completely known, we'd be waiting 30 years.  Other vaccines and drugs were rushed to use without waiting for years and years. Think Polio vaccine. Pfizer is now approved for normal use and I understand that the Thai government will use Pfizer to vaccinate schoolchildren. 

 

In the US, schoolchildren are required to have a number of vaccinations prior to attending elementary school.  My children were recently required to evidence their vaccination records going back to infancy before they were allowed to attend university in the US. Vaccine requirements are nothing new.

 

I have more faith in the medical community and their collective wisdom than in crackpot political hacks and conspiracy theorists. That does not rule out having a healthy skepticism of our leaders and their policies, but there is a difference between skepticism or criticism of policy and falling for absolutely nonsensical conspiracy theories. 

 

I can choose not to go to a restaurant to protect myself and I can prevent my family members from doing so as well. Restaurants are not really necessary and my family can pretty much avoid this risk if we want. The risk presented by the Ministry of Education ordering schools to re-open with unvaccinated students is harder to avoid. I would have to withdraw my daughter from school if I wanted to avoid this risk and there would be consequences for her future if I did so. Restaurants and schools is a false equivalency when it comes to workable risk mitigation.

 

All companies spin the truth and lie. We all need to be wary and watch out for this, but if the standard is to only patronize companies that never lie or spin, then I'm afraid we can't patronize any companies. Pfizer, for one, has a proven track record of producing pharmaceuticals that are safe and effective. While I would be wary, I would have to see some evidence that Pfizer has a particularly odious corporate culture or track record of major misdeeds before I would refuse their vaccine in the middle of an epidemic.

 

I don't have blind faith in vaccines. Nobody should. We will need to wear masks, practice physical distancing and hand hygiene for some time. Vaccines aren't a silver bullet, but they are a major part of a successful public health policy.

 

Taken to its illogical extreme, one could say that any time two or more people collaborate to gain an advantage in business or politics it is a conspiracy. In this case, all businesses are nefarious conspiracies to turn a profit and pay dividend to shareholders at the expense of consumers. This seems to be the world that many conspiracy theorists live in. I don't.

Thank you for taking your time to write a thoughtful response to the subject at hand.

[TKDfella]

I am not sure whether it's a problem with vaccinations or perhaps with trust in authorities. To me it seems that people generally don't trust, or have less faith, in those who hold positions that were once highly respected. Today everything seems to be a possible tool for political gain. a root for a conspiracy theory and so on. I think too, journalism was also more respected than it is now where today it's 'don't believe what you read in newspapers' etc.

In Thailand, dare I mention those who said early on 'Don't worry there is plenty of vaccine to go around' and similar declarations, when in fact the opposite was true. Such behaviour is bound to result in less confidence.

[Bukowski]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Immunizations have been a requirement for school entry for eons. Not sure why some are getting all wound up about this. Especially considering our current global pandemic. Jeez.

 

https://ourworldindata.org/childhood-vaccination-policies

Not a parent to young children, are you? 

The idea that children should be vaccinated to protect weak adults is obscene.

 

[mrfill]

1 hour ago, ClaySmc said:

Seems to be old news you have there. Here's the latest:

UK plans to offer Covid vaccines to teens later this year | Financial Times (ft.com)

Looks like they were waiting for Pfizer to complete testing and get approval.
 

And here is even more recent news (note that the article is less than 10 minutes old...)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58423152

[wwest5829]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Immunizations have been a requirement for school entry for eons. Not sure why some are getting all wound up about this. Especially considering our current global pandemic. Jeez.

 

https://ourworldindata.org/childhood-vaccination-policies

I am soooo old! Let’s see there was the childhood Diphtheria, Pertussis (Whooping Cough) and Tetanus vaccines. I think before entering public education the Smallpx vaccine was administered and I still have the scar. Then I recall lining up at school when I received both the Salk and the Sabine Polio vaccines. There were Tentanus vaccine boosters along the way, including one after I “sandpapered myself coming off the motorbike. Ah, I recall one US college where I applied requiring I take a Typhoid/Paratyphoid vaccine … that one did not go so well … severe allergic reaction. I I was going to travel through Central America in 1979-1980 … Yellow Fever vaccine recommended and taken.  No doubt I may have missed remembering some. Ah, just remembered I got a Hepatitis vaccine …Thing is, these virus will continue to attack the human body. These medically researched and provided are to help us defend ourselves. For those who chose to reject … no problem, .I respect your right to potentially die … just stay the hell away from me and mine … Nope, I do not want you in the plane (or other public conveyance with me. No, I will not support a claim that you have any “right” to come into any facility serving the public if you do not join us in trying to protect all … it is not all about you (not aimed at the current post … I wish to support).

[ClaySmc]

38 minutes ago, mrfill said:

And here is even more recent news (note that the article is less than 10 minutes old...)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58423152

And your article states:

 

For every million Pfizer second doses given to 12-17-year-old-boys, around 60 had the condition

 

She points to a recent US study which suggests that having Covid-19 could be six times more likely to trigger myocarditis in young men than the vaccine, with a rate of about 450 per million infections.

 

And then you can hope they don't get Covid, so then those numbers don't apply. That may be a crapshoot regarding the youngsters; but brings things back to protecting other members of a family or the public. You might not have an extended family living together, but many Thai people do. You have the right not to send your child to school, but do you have the right to put other people at risk??? 

 

Having said that; I don't think it is an easy decision for a parent to make. It may be a bit too early to mandate things, but we live in a society where everyone has to be taken into account. Sometimes that is not too easy.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by ClaySmc
clarification

[ifmu]

do or dont  .. up to you          risk killing other people along with your child and do NOT get the vaccine 

OR

protect others and your child and get the <deleted> vaccine

but please STOP trying to get people to agree with you   i am tired of all you antivax and anti mask ass$$$holes 

 

[robblok]

Just for the record all this guys post have been anti vax. Not a single one about an other topic. Looks like one of the anti vax crazies came out of the woodwork just to find topics to prove his views. 

 

Posted in the Pattaya topic too so I doubt this person has kids but just loves to moan and look for something to complain.

 

Though in the case when its about kids a lot of things are unclear so I understand it when people have reservations. 

[LongTimeLurker]

7 hours ago, cclub75 said:

Meanwhile, some international schools are looking at the "sandbox programm".... their idea is to push for vaccine : all the staff + all the children... They think it's a way to reopen faster...

The sandbox programme doesn't require the children to be vaccinated (especially since there's no vaccination in place for them anyway) it just requires them to have negative Covid testing.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

2 hours ago, DavidSSaville said:

In certain countries and states more than half of hospitalizations are double vaxxed, then what good is it really.

In a population where everyone has been vaccinated, the only people in hospital with Covid will be the vaccinated. This does not mean that the vaccine is not effective. The issue is how many hospitalizations had been prevented by having the population vaccinated. Vaccines are effective, at least so far.

[Scott Tracy]

On 9/6/2021 at 4:47 PM, Callmeishmael said:

I replied that of course they wouldn't die, 10 year olds don't die of Covid.

Really? Definitively? 100% sure about that?

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, DavidSSaville said:

I do not know what I will do regarding my children when push comes to shove!

Ask them what they want to do?

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, ClaySmc said:

That may be a crapshoot regarding the youngsters; but brings things back to protecting other members of a family or the public. You might not have an extended family living together, but many Thai people do. You have the right not to send your child to school, but do you have the right to put other people at risk???

The article also states that if everyone and their dog gets vaccinated, the virus will still spread.

[ClaySmc]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The article also states that if everyone and their dog gets vaccinated, the virus will still spread.

Even if that is true, which it may not be, the people who get vaccinated for the most part (by a significant margin over the unvaccinated) are not getting major illness and dying at the rate of the unvaccinated.

 

What that does is help protect the doctors, nurses and medical staff, and lesson the burden on ICU facilities. And if you look at any charts, the unvaccinated are the ones overburdening the hospitals now, ever since Delta has taken over; and the vaccinated who may have issues are those who have other contributing medical factors.

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, Bukowski said:

Not a parent to young children, are you? 

The idea that children should be vaccinated to protect weak adults is obscene.

 

It's not just to protect weak adults. It's their friends, teachers, etc, etc.

 

The biggest rise in some states are those UNDER 18.

 

Time to address this vulnerable part of our population. Sad that you don't understand this.

 

Almost all of us were vaccinated as children. Why such a Fight now? Bizarre.