blacklisted for 12 months while on elite visa.

[BritTim]

54 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He had a valid visa, really?  I thought he had exceeded his permission to stay by three months and I'm pretty sure that invalidates the visa.

You are wrong. An overstay does not invalidate the visa. The overstay may, however, as in the current case, mean that you are forbidden to use the visa. If the overstay had been shorter, and the fine paid, he would have been free to re-enter Thailand on the visa without any problem.

[Caldera]

When they introduced the blacklisting in 2016, I actually thought it's a good idea, as some people who didn't qualify for an extension (or simply didn't care) made it a habit to overstay and just pay the maximum fine whenever they felt like leaving. It's legitimate to police that with more effective means.

 

On the other hand, I think it's wrong to use blacklisting against people who've paid good money upfront just to stay in Thailand. Yes, the guy could and should have known, but it's unnecessarily harsh, as he could have extended with ease. He might have been fooled by the "up to 20 years of residency" advertising, or simply by the validity of his visa sticker. Hardly a real crime that needs to be punished with blacklisting.

 

[NoshowJones]

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I'd agree that there is a certain element of risk with paying up front for the Thai Elite membership.

 

The program was in fact in turmoil some time ago when it was discovered that funds had been squandered (as if anything else was going to happen in Thailand !) - I think it was Abhisit’s government which attempted to terminate the program and actually put it on hold for 8 months while Thai Elites assets were investigated. 

Ultimately, the government could not close Thailand Elite, that would have been illegal and class action lawsuits were threatened (by the members who got together).

 

So far the program has stood the test of time (over 15 years), I believe it has entered a level of general acceptance and reliability where the risk of closure or loss of money is sufficiently diminished for it not to be a concern. 

 

 

Regarding your comment on ‘using an agent’....   Perhaps someone below 50 can rely on an agent can get a Ed Visa or a Visa based on charity work although that is still somewhat ’sketchy’ - how much do the agents charge for this ??... 

 

 

 

 

I do not know as I have never been involved in what you mention, this forum AN/TV sponsers an agent, and can probably put up a list of their services. It appears here from time to time.

[ChaiyaTH]

7 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Comments were to highlight that mistakes are easily made.

 

FYI - the subject of the OP overstayed his permission of stay by 3 months while holding valid Visa - it's hardly a major crime - a 12 month black list is extremely excessive in this case. 

 

Note; no need to exit Thailand, just apply for a extension of stay for another 12 months. 

It has been very clear since years that any overstay of more than 90 days results in a 1 year blacklist. 

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, ChaiyaTH said:

9 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Comments were to highlight that mistakes are easily made.

 

FYI - the subject of the OP overstayed his permission of stay by 3 months while holding valid Visa - it's hardly a major crime - a 12 month black list is extremely excessive in this case. 

 

Note; no need to exit Thailand, just apply for a extension of stay for another 12 months. 

Expand  

It has been very clear since years that any overstay of more than 90 days results in a 1 year blacklist. 

I think you missed my point. 

 

The subject of the Op had no idea he was on overstay. He was holding a valid visa (valid for another 2 years). 

He clearly made a mistake and misunderstood the ‘extension of stay process’.

 

Yes, it's his responsibility and his mistake. However, I can understand how he made such a mistake.

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

13 minutes ago, BritTim said:

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He had a valid visa, really?  I thought he had exceeded his permission to stay by three months and I'm pretty sure that invalidates the visa.

You are wrong. An overstay does not invalidate the visa. The overstay may, however, as in the current case, mean that you are forbidden to use the visa. If the overstay had been shorter, and the fine paid, he would have been free to re-enter Thailand on the visa without any problem.

"The overstay may, however, as in the current case, mean that you are forbidden to use the visa".

So, I am correct, thank you, his visa is invalid.

 

"If the overstay had been shorter, and the fine paid, he would have been free to re-enter Thailand on the visa without any problem".

If, if if...   It wasn't, he didn't and he isn't!  Guess what will happen if he tries to re-enter in the next 12 months...he'll be told his visa was invalidated because he was blacklisted due to a long overstay.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Liverpool Lou

[John Drake]

2 hours ago, robertson468 said:

I have been in Thailand for 17 years and frequently update myself on the Visa requirements so that I don't fall foul of the Laws. 

About once per month I check in on the Aseannow Visa forum to see if anybody is howling mad because of some new rule. If all the topics look like they're short and 2-3 pages, I figure everything is fine for another month.

[ChrisKC]

Britmantoo stated earlier on, that Immigration in this case could have been lenient in this particular case.

 

MY reasons for doing this would be to do with an Elite visa Holder, the current situation re covid and the need to create as much positive attention for potential tourists, to show goodwill and the spirit that Thailand really needs at this time. I cannot agree 100% because what has happened is against the rules.

 

For those who say Immigration Officers don't have the power and yes, within the rules, they don't, but we all know that while I believe that the rules for all Immigration affairs should be applied equally countrywide, they most certainly are not! Many posts on this forum ask about requirements for visa matters depending on which Office they apply. When things are different, in my opinion, it seems that some Officers either do not understand the rules or ask for things not required for reasons I do not know; maybe for personal benefit. Circumventing the rules and the law is commonplace here because (personal) "power" has been assumed.

 

For me, I have a conscience; within which are a set of principles (my law) but there some occasions when a pr*ck to my conscience is more favourable than being a pr*ck, in a situation in which the progress I want to make is seriously impeded.

 

So as an immigration Officer in this case, I might let the "Blacklisting" part slip my memory - but don't tell anyone!

Edited December 8, 2021 by ChrisKC
word change

[n00dle]

personally i think elite visa is at fault here. He should have been notified in time to take action. Aren't they suppose to provide "concierge" visa service? They certainly seem to be on top of it when your visa is expiring and it is time to spend more to re-up. They must have had a process in place for those who could not leave the country.

 

That said, spending that much on a visa, i would have taken the time to find out the conditions, especially given the consequences for messing up. 

[TheScience]

2 hours ago, antony77 said:

people with Elite visas would be highly offended.

Aww...

I'll cry them a river

[TheScience]

23 hours ago, ezzra said:

Don't you just loath it when you have those who wallowing in the misery of others? so the man did a mistake, is this a good reason to mock him?...

I'm certainly not mocking him. In fact, have great empathy for him.

 

The system fails foreigners daily. We suffer through until we can't bear it any longer and quietly leave or if stuck with family just endure the ignorance and stupidity.

 

And they think this will appeal to millionaires?

 

I stand corrected on the 25k. Top fine as I know it is 20k. That's just sad. They gave him a shoulder to cry on while knifing him in the back. Again, Thailand!

[TheScience]

On 12/7/2021 at 2:39 PM, GrandPapillon said:

why do people bother staying in Thailand with all the immigration non-sense, this country has no future, it doesn't change or improve, it's only great for coming 3 to 4 months a year

The only reason I'm left with is I got married.

[TheScience]

42 minutes ago, ChrisKC said:

So as an immigration Officer in this case, I might let the "Blacklisting" part slip my memory - but don't tell anyone!

But they chose to fine him 5k more than the maximum ALLEGEDLY.

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, TheScience said:

I'm certainly not mocking him. In fact, have great empathy for him.

 

The system fails foreigners daily. We suffer through until we can't bear it any longer and quietly leave or if stuck with family just endure the ignorance and stupidity.

 

And they think this will appeal to millionaires?

 

I stand corrected on the 25k. Top fine as I know it is 20k. That's just sad. They gave him a shoulder to cry on while knifing him in the back. Again, Thailand!

I really do not think that Thailand and their immigration systems deserves criticising on this matter .

   The guy overstayed his Visa and paid the consequences .

I do have sympathies for his predicament , but  he really should have made sure that his visa remined valid and that he didnt go on overstay 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He had a valid visa, really?  I thought he had exceeded his permission to stay by three months and I'm pretty sure that invalidates the visa.

My existing Visa expires in March 2022.

I will then be issued another visa which is valid until March 2027. 

 

The visa is valid, it is the permission of stay which is variable. 

This is where the ops friend tripped up.

 

But you know that already. 

[GrandPapillon]

it really comes down to poor communication skills from Thai, not explaining clearly what things mean or how urgent they need to be

 

I faced something similar 10 years ago that could have ended up very badly, but managed to escape when the Chief IO giving me a "free" pass at her full discretion

 

I had a non-O multi entry for 1 year, and there was a mistake made at the Consulate over in Europe, they put the wrong expiration date at 3 months instead of 12 months

 

I do a 3 day VISA run to Singapore, and my non-O Multi was expiring the same day as I return. The nice IO gave me a "free" pass and extended my stay for another 3 months, and tried to "warn" me in his poor English that something was wrong, but he gave me my usual 3 months anyway. Of course I ignored his warning as I was assuming everything was fine and the IO was just ranting on something I couldn't understand.

 

come the next VISA run 3 months later, I show up on my return, and I get 30 days. I am like WT**? so I complain to the IO that non-O multi, and he shows me the "Expiration" date. Confused, I keep protesting, saying how can the other IO gave me "3 months" if it was expired?

 

Now they are confused too, so they call a "small lady" that was directing passengers to the immigration lane, thought she was "assisting staff" to passengers waiting in lines. It turns out she was the "big boss" of the airport immigration and I get into a fight with her about re-considering the stay.

 

She looks over my passport and realize something is wrong with the last "Stamp" and the date of the multi-O, and then she starts to get really mad. Contact immediately the officer that gave the previous "3 months" and soon everything starts to get very "tense". She thinks I have cheated, and that I was doing "fake" VISA runs.

 

Next thing I know, she grabs all kinds of rubber stamps, black, red etc... and tells me : "I am going to check your 10 years history on your passport and the computer, if I see anything wrong or suspect, you are gone, go back your country today" and I am like "ok sh*t, all my stuff and my life is here". 

 

now, I have my own immigration lane, and she spends 1.5 hour checking and scrutinizing every page and every stamp I had for the last 10 years, and check with the computer for consistency. After 2 hours, she returns.

 

"I can only give 30 days, the Consulate made a mistake, you need to fix that with them so they can issue a new multi-O for 1 year. Your passport is clean, nothing wrong. You are lucky." ????

 

morale of the story: don't lose your sh*t, they know precisely what they are doing. And don't have a "dirty stamp" on your passport, no matter how convenient. Eventually, it could come back to you, even if you are clean now. And be careful how you treat "assisting staff" at the airport, they might not be what they seem ????

 

I had to go to miserable Penang, Malaysia for 3 days for a non-O multi with all the miserable monthly visa runners, and it was chaos over there. Got a full refund from the Thai consulate eventually, but it took them a few weeks to acknowledge they were wrong, blamed the computer instead. Classic ????

Edited December 8, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[Liverpool Lou]

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

My existing Visa expires in March 2022.

I will then be issued another visa which is valid until March 2027. 

 

The visa is valid, it is the permission of stay which is variable. 

Yes, of course your visa is still valid, you're not on a three-month overstay! 

 

There are circumstances in which IB can cancel visas, a long overstay, accompanied by blacklisting being one of those.

 

But you know that already, surely?

Edited December 8, 2021 by Liverpool Lou

[richard_smith237]

43 minutes ago, n00dle said:

personally i think elite visa is at fault here. He should have been notified in time to take action. Aren't they suppose to provide "concierge" visa service? They certainly seem to be on top of it when your visa is expiring and it is time to spend more to re-up. They must have had a process in place for those who could not leave the country.

 

That said, spending that much on a visa, i would have taken the time to find out the conditions, especially given the consequences for messing up. 

Thai Elite does provide information on this, but they don’t ‘baby-sit’ their members.

 

When paying a chunk on money some may expect a reminder etc but I would my trust someone else to do this. 
 

Ultimately the system itself is somewhat clumsy - it’s understandable that this mistake happened, it’s not the first & wont be the last time something like this occurs. 
 

People & the system are both fallible. 

[GrandPapillon]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thai Elite does provide information on this, but they don’t ‘baby-sit’ their members.

 

When paying a chunk on money some may expect a reminder etc but I would my trust someone else to do this. 
 

Ultimately the system itself is somewhat clumsy - it’s understandable that this mistake happened, it’s not the first & wont be the last time something like this occurs. 
 

People & the system are both fallible. 

if they send emails to an invalid address, or probably ends up in SPAM with their "wording" and heavy "images" in emails

[TheScience]

16 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

they know precisely what they are doing.

No, they really don't.

 

How much to wager this guy was never told the nuances of the visa. One page in English would be enough.

 

IO scrutiny is rather arbitrary and capricious. Instead of forgiving a tiny error with an admonishment they really try to rain hell and damnation on your life. No inconvenience to trival or nonsensical. Often, it's no error at all but rather moving the goalposts.

 

They were right to bring damnation down on this guy. The guy is right to take all his money and never return.

[richard_smith237]

18 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Yes, of course your visa is still valid, you're not on a three-month overstay!  There are circumstances in which IB can cancel visas and a long overstay, accompanied by blacklisting would be one of those.

I get your point.. permission of  stay supersedes the visa. 
 

It’s clear this guy was going off the visa dates not knowing what permission of stay is. 
 

I wonder: if he was in a 5 year membership he would have had Visa stickers valid for 12 months. 
 

I guess he was on a 10 year membership if he had 2 years remaining on his visa which would have been 5 years visa sticker (renewable for another 5 years) 

He then stayed  15 months on a 12 month permission of stay. 

 

 

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"If the overstay had been shorter, and the fine paid, he would have been free to re-enter Thailand on the visa without any problem".

If, if if...   It wasn't, he didn't and he isn't!  Guess what will happen if he tries to re-enter in the next 12 months...he'll be told his visa was invalidated because he was blacklisted due to a long overstay.

They wouldn't tell him this, because his visa isn't invalid. They would tell him that he can't enter because he is blacklisted.

 

29 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

There are circumstances in which IB can cancel visas, a long overstay, accompanied by blacklisting being one of those.

The IB doesn't cancel visas.

[richard_smith237]

24 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

if they send emails to an invalid address, or probably ends up in SPAM with their "wording" and heavy "images" in emails

It’s explained on application. 

Although a lot of that can get muddied with all the other info. 

 

Ultimately the guy made a mistake, but it was an ‘innocent mistake’ & he was still holding a visa, it’s not as if he’s exceeded his visa, just his permission of stay. 
 

I think there is definitely a case for discretion & leniency. 

[Andycoops]

Spend all that money on something called Elite and don't know the rules, abysmal.

[ukrules]

3 hours ago, antony77 said:

I can't understand anyone buying an Elite visa. If you do not qualify for a marriage or retirement extension. You can use an agent to extend your stay here almost indefinitely for a tiny fraction of the cost of an elite visa.

Try that when you're under 50 and things rapidly become very clear.

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"The overstay may, however, as in the current case, mean that you are forbidden to use the visa".

So, I am correct, thank you, his visa is invalid.

 

"If the overstay had been shorter, and the fine paid, he would have been free to re-enter Thailand on the visa without any problem".

If, if if...   It wasn't, he didn't and he isn't!  Guess what will happen if he tries to re-enter in the next 12 months...he'll be told his visa was invalidated because he was blacklisted due to a long overstay.

Sigh! If the visa had been invalidated, he would not be free to use it to enter Thailand in a year's time.

 

Your position is similar to saying that his visa was invalidated because he did not have Covid insurance to enter. There is a difference between a cancelled visa and a denied entry. You are showing another example of the confusion between different regulations as the OP's friend showed in misunderstanding th difference between visa validity and permission to stay expiry.

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, ChrisKC said:

For those who say Immigration Officers don't have the power and yes, within the rules, they don't, but we all know that while I believe that the rules for all Immigration affairs should be applied equally countrywide, they most certainly are not!

Actually, as long as the case is escalated to the necessary level, very senior officials do have the power to exercise their discretion and waive the blacklisting. Indeed, on very rare occasions, this has been known to happen, though I cannot recall it happening at Suvarnabhumi.

Edited December 8, 2021 by BritTim

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, n00dle said:

personally i think elite visa is at fault here. He should have been notified in time to take action. Aren't they suppose to provide "concierge" visa service? They certainly seem to be on top of it when your visa is expiring and it is time to spend more to re-up. They must have had a process in place for those who could not leave the country.

 

That said, spending that much on a visa, i would have taken the time to find out the conditions, especially given the consequences for messing up. 

When someone with an Elite membership exits and re-enters Thailand, they may or may not be aware of the updated permission to stay. It is not possible for them to have an automated procedure that will inform members shortly before expiry of their permission to stay. All they can do (and I believe this is already done) is send regular email reminders to members that they must take care to understand the expiry date of their permission to stay and avoid overstay.

[antony77]

23 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I have never read of anybody being successful when filing a appeal for it.

If he had not paid the fine and was taken to the detention center (IDC) he might of been able to get something done.

You need to have good Thai friends. My son overstayed his visa while visiting us in Thailand. My friend took him to the immigration office no fine no ban and a three month extension bt1900 no bribes too.

[daveAustin]

2 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

It has been very clear since years that any overstay of more than 90 days results in a 1 year blacklist. 

You should apply for a job with Thai immigration; you’d fit right in! 

While that is the law for overstaying sans visa, this guy has a valid visa and is genuine but got caught up by the messy, dreamt-up-by-selfish-children system. Paying through the nose for something touted ‘Elite’ should afford some privilege/leeway and expedite the process, while at the end of the day you’re getting eff all for your money… still having to extend, still having to report etc etc and essentially being the same as cattle class. Reason enough for not bothering with it. 
Some folk revel seeing those with these visas getting the shaft. Bit sad really.