21 minutes ago, 300sd said:

Well what about some peaceful dialogue? Instead of war, war, war from the Woke West? We all lose if there is a real war, you know the nuclear kind!

Negotiate with Putin? You are out of touch with reality, aren't you?

On 5/9/2022 at 7:35 PM, zzaa09 said:

Another mindless patriot that doesn't know the backstory. 

Typical and quite predictable.

Whether or not the backstory is known I think we can all understand what the Russian Army is doing raping, killing and torturing civilians. Don't need to know much history to know that is wrong.  ☹️

 

Couple of Russian twits on the beach today.  High fiving themselves.  Parked their bikes right in middle of road blocking through traffic.  Saw four different families asking them to move as they were trying to squeeze their sidecars through. Did see any Zs though.

11 hours ago, Capella said:

No need to be so condescending in your tone mate. We're having a debate here.

 

Now tell me of one single case since WW2 where western meddling in foreign wars ended in any other way than total disaster, misery, death, displacement and destruction?

 

Korea? Vietnam? Afghanistan? Iraq? Syria? Libya? Laos? Yugoslavia? Cambodia? Central America? And now you support Western meddling in Ukraine based on feed from the same corporate media that brought us nonexistent WMD. 

You may have a point about the West meddling in Korea, etc but that is irrelevant and not the case when it comes to Ukraine.

 

Ukraine has been an independent country since 1991. Her people have decided that their future lies with the West. Their bigger neighbour doesn't accept this decision and invades. Morally wrong and against international law. That may be a simplistic argument but that's because it really is that simple.

5 hours ago, RayC said:

You may have a point about the West meddling in Korea, etc but that is irrelevant and not the case when it comes to Ukraine.

 

Ukraine has been an independent country since 1991. Her people have decided that their future lies with the West. Their bigger neighbour doesn't accept this decision and invades. Morally wrong and against international law. That may be a simplistic argument but that's because it really is that simple.

I think you're oversimplified the situation in Ukraine, as western observers have a tendency to do.

 

Rather than being a homogeneous place demographically, it is split into Russian and Ukrainian camps, analogous to demographic splits in places like Ireland, Malaysia and the former Yugoslavia.

 

As a nation, it really should have stayed neutral, but it was seduced by NATO expansion, while treating its ethnic Russians as second class, and the rest is history. It has now been carved into two pieces. 

19 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I'm sure Biden, like most Americans I know, can't even say Prayut's full name. He even called Trump 'George' a couple of years ago ???? 

Biden forgetting names is a daily multiple occurrence.

19 hours ago, gargamon said:

Negotiate with Putin? You are out of touch with reality, aren't you?

Or you are!

13 hours ago, Capella said:

I think you're oversimplified the situation in Ukraine, as western observers have a tendency to do.

As opposed to whom? Russian observers? 

 

13 hours ago, Capella said:

 

Rather than being a homogeneous place demographically, it is split into Russian and Ukrainian camps, analogous to demographic splits in places like Ireland, Malaysia and the former Yugoslavia.

And your point is?

 

13 hours ago, Capella said:

 

As a nation, it really should have stayed neutral

Why? Do you not believe that sovereign nations have the right to self-determination? 

 

13 hours ago, Capella said:

 

but it was seduced by NATO expansion,

The opposite. Ukraine was trying to seduce NATO which - until this war -has shown little enthusiasm for giving it membership

 

13 hours ago, Capella said:

 

while treating its ethnic Russians as second class,

Where is your evidence to support this statement? Opinion polls do not necessarily tell the whole truth but can be a gauge of public opinion. It appears that despite events, there is little antipathy towards ordinary Russians by Ukrainians. 

https://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/commentary/ukrainians-want-to-stay-and-fight-but-dont-see-russian-people-as-the-enemy-a-remarkable-poll-from-kyiv/

 

13 hours ago, Capella said:

 

and the rest is history. It has now been carved into two pieces. 

Ukraine was carved into two pieces by the illegal annexation of the Crimea by Russia in 2014.

 

The truth - as in this case - does not always have to be complicated. The simple fact is that Russia - under the leadership of a dictator - does not recognise the right of Ukraine to exist as a sovereign nation but rather, sees it as merely a constituent of a 'Greater Russia'. That is the reason for the invasion.

9 hours ago, RayC said:

As opposed to whom? Russian observers? 

 

And your point is?

 

Why? Do you not believe that sovereign nations have the right to self-determination? 

 

The opposite. Ukraine was trying to seduce NATO which - until this war -has shown little enthusiasm for giving it membership

 

Where is your evidence to support this statement? Opinion polls do not necessarily tell the whole truth but can be a gauge of public opinion. It appears that despite events, there is little antipathy towards ordinary Russians by Ukrainians. 

https://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/commentary/ukrainians-want-to-stay-and-fight-but-dont-see-russian-people-as-the-enemy-a-remarkable-poll-from-kyiv/

 

Ukraine was carved into two pieces by the illegal annexation of the Crimea by Russia in 2014.

 

The truth - as in this case - does not always have to be complicated. The simple fact is that Russia - under the leadership of a dictator - does not recognise the right of Ukraine to exist as a sovereign nation but rather, sees it as merely a constituent of a 'Greater Russia'. That is the reason for the invasion.

A self described "remarkable" poll from Kiev by this incredibly impartial organisation...

 

https://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/about/

 

Polls are used to shape public opinion rather than to measure it. Brexit and Trump are two good examples. 

 

You'll be posting material from the BBC and CNN next.

 

This "poll from Kiev" purporting to speak for all Ukrainians - did it include people from Eastern Ukraine too?

 

You don't know. 

2 minutes ago, Capella said:

A self described "remarkable" poll from Kiev by this incredibly impartial organisation...

 

https://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/about/

 

Polls are used to shape public opinion rather than to measure it. Brexit and Trump are two good examples. 

 

You'll be posting material from the BBC and CNN next.

 

This "poll from Kiev" purporting to speak for all Ukrainians - did it include people from Eastern Ukraine too?

 

You don't know. 

You didn't even read the link, did you? Your bias is showing BIG TIME.

 

Quote

 

Ukrainians consider their future to be closer to Europe.

Nearly 19 in 20 Ukrainians (93%) said they considered their country’s future to be closer to Europe than to Russia. This included 78% of respondents of Russian ethnicity, and 84% of those in the east of the country closest to the Russian border

 

 

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You didn't even read the link, did you? Your bias is showing BIG TIME.

 

 

How do you know that the poll itself wasn't biased, given that the organisation that held it is obviously biased?

 

This is a good example of why the West meddles so much in places it doesn't understand, and causes one catastrophe after another. 

 

You'll be telling me that Crimea didn't vote to be part of Russia next, that only polls supporting your view are valid polls.

 

Thailand is right not to take sides.

 

2 minutes ago, Capella said:

How do you know that the poll itself wasn't biased, given that the organisation that held it is obviously biased?

 

This is a good example of why the West meddles so much in places it doesn't understand, and causes one catastrophe after another. 

 

You'll be telling me that Crimea didn't vote to be part of Russia next, that only polls supporting your view are valid polls.

It sounds to me that you're a victim of Russian propaganda which seeks to promotes the idea that there is no knowable truth. 

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It sounds to me that you're a victim of Russian propaganda which seeks to promotes the idea that there is no knowable truth. 

Not at all. I've no idea what's happening in Ukraine, and nor do you. There are two sides, each telling us two different things, and each having very questionable credibility. 

 

And nor does Thailand know what's going on, which is why it made the right decision to mind its own business

36 minutes ago, Capella said:

Not at all. I've no idea what's happening in Ukraine, and nor do you. There are two sides, each telling us two different things, and each having very questionable credibility. 

 

And nor does Thailand know what's going on, which is why it made the right decision to mind its own business

If you don't know whats going on in Ukraine then that's a choice you alone are making. There are plenty of credible reports to the atrocities. If you have problems with the credibility of independent western press and want to compare it to the questionable to state controlled Kremlin run press then you can go straight to the source of many reports of the war crimes backed up with credible evidence from the UN or OSCE

54 minutes ago, Capella said:

Not at all. I've no idea what's happening in Ukraine, and nor do you. There are two sides, each telling us two different things, and each having very questionable credibility. 

 

And nor does Thailand know what's going on, which is why it made the right decision to mind its own business

Best and most accurate post I can remember reading on this forum. You are exactly correct, we(the general public) have absolutely no idea whatsoever what is going on in the Ukraine. That we are on the precipice of nuclear war and the end of all life on earth over a matter we do not understand at all strikes me as being rather unwise. 

 

 What I would say is that the failure to reach diplomatic solutions before an invasion started is totally unforgiveable. I am aware of Putin's "demands" to end the skuffle and they were all absolutely reasonable IMO. There is no need for the west to place nukes on Russias border, they could atomize the country from anywhere if so desired. 

 

Thailand having the intelligence to stay neutral here, and not caving in to the pressure from the US to take a side is very impressive. Well done Prayuth and co.

39 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Best and most accurate post I can remember reading on this forum. You are exactly correct, we(the general public) have absolutely no idea whatsoever what is going on in the Ukraine. That we are on the precipice of nuclear war and the end of all life on earth over a matter we do not understand at all strikes me as being rather unwise. 

 

 What I would say is that the failure to reach diplomatic solutions before an invasion started is totally unforgiveable. I am aware of Putin's "demands" to end the skuffle and they were all absolutely reasonable IMO. There is no need for the west to place nukes on Russias border, they could atomize the country from anywhere if so desired. 

 

Thailand having the intelligence to stay neutral here, and not caving in to the pressure from the US to take a side is very impressive. Well done Prayuth and co.

SunnyinBangrak gets it.

49 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

credible reports

In war, truth is the first casualty. Neither of us has the faintest idea what's happening in Ukraine, or what will happen next.

16 minutes ago, Capella said:

In war, truth is the first casualty. Neither of us has the faintest idea what's happening in Ukraine, or what will happen next.

Disagree, if you had not edited my post I gave you direct source of people on the ground documenting it.

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Disagree, if you had not edited my post I gave you direct source of people on the ground documenting it.

On which piece of ground, and at what point in time? Documenting it, while it's actually happening?

 

I don't think so.

 

And yes, I did believe that there were WMD in Iraq. Thailand probably did too. Once bitten, twice shy, as the old saying goes.

 

11 minutes ago, Capella said:

On which piece of ground, and at what point in time? Documenting it, while it's actually happening?

 

I don't think so.

 

And yes, I did believe that there were WMD in Iraq. Thailand probably did too. Once bitten, twice shy, as the old saying goes.

 

Nothing to do with Iraq. Its to do with the UN and international monitors in Ukraine taking evidence right now, I guess you'll not bother tuning into the UN session tomorrow, or read the reports directly from them

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Nothing to do with Iraq. Its to do with the UN and international monitors in Ukraine taking evidence right now, I guess you'll not bother tuning into the UN session tomorrow, or read the reports directly from them

I used Iraq to raise a credibility question - one that you can't refute.

1 minute ago, Capella said:

I used Iraq to raise a credibility question - one that you can't refute.

No I just stick to the topic, Ukraine, and the facts from credible sources such as the UN, OSCE and the many international observers. I've no need to deflect into other conflicts

2 hours ago, Capella said:

Not at all. I've no idea what's happening in Ukraine

Then I suggest you refrain from comment... plenty of images are being posted by multiple media sources. People are being killed indiscriminately. 

2 hours ago, Capella said:

In war, truth is the first casualty. Neither of us has the faintest idea what's happening in Ukraine, or what will happen next.

What nonsense. By your criteria, no one including yourself would have the faintest idea about anything that goes on in the world anywhere.

2 hours ago, Capella said:

On which piece of ground, and at what point in time? Documenting it, while it's actually happening?

 

I don't think so.

 

And yes, I did believe that there were WMD in Iraq. Thailand probably did too. Once bitten, twice shy, as the old saying goes.

 

So, are you saying that no one knows if Russia has invaded Ukraine? That it hasn't happened or that it's a false flag operation?

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Then I suggest you refrain from comment

Great that you advocate refraining from comment - this is exactly what Thailand is (very rightly) doing.

 

Being neutral only helps the aggressor, never the victims. Tolerating war raids by superpowers on smaller countries through "neutrality" is the wrong approach. And which country sent its invasion army here is clear. Russia is bombing all of Ukraine with its rockets with the aim of destroying the country. There must be no tolerance or neutrality for warmongers and war criminals.

On 5/10/2022 at 1:47 AM, Capella said:

Wise decision. The Ukraine war is none of Thailand’s business, so why get involved?

No moral compass. If someone entered the shop house down the road from you, raped, pillaged and killed the owners, you would say not my house not my business? Besides the illegal act and loss of life, the shop is now closed and your cost of living is going up. Doesn't affect you or a moral fiber in your body eh?

 

There's only one planet, no one should be allowed to dictate who lives and dies on it. Those who try are dead meat walking.

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

So, are you saying that no one knows if Russia has invaded Ukraine? That it hasn't happened or that it's a false flag operation?

Putin propaganda has a wide reach, inside and outside of Russia 

4 hours ago, Capella said:

I used Iraq to raise a credibility question - one that you can't refute.

Have you noted that most of the countries that support the U.S. position on the Ukraine, did not support the US war in Iraq? Have you noted that virtually all of the countries that support the U.S. position on the Ukraine, did not support the previous administration's sabotage of the Iran nuclear agreement? Have you noted that Finland, which has kept itself scrupulously non-aligned for roughly 80 years, is now seriously contemplating joining NATO because of the Russian invasion?  Does any of this look significant to you?