ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[norfolkandchance]

9 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

Wait....did you just blame the Holocaust on the Jews?  

 

Wow.

His true colours coming out.

[Skipalongcassidy]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Refer top of World News page:

 

”Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source.”

WHAAAA

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Actually, at the outset of the 73 war, the Egyptians made deep inroads into the Sinai before being stopped.

Then Israel fought back and won the war and kept the Sinai

TBL's claim was that Egypt won the war and gained the Sinai back, which just didn't happen .

[Morch]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

IMHO ... Since Israel has broken almost every peace agreement they've signed, and ignored 100s of UN Resolution against them, (more than all other countries combined) I'm leaning toward the Palestinians being in the right.  

source

source

 

IMHO only, but what they do to the Palestinians, many would consider a campaign of geocide, which I happen to agree with.

 

Israel got long standing peace agreements with two of it's neighbors (Egypt and Jordan). Neither was ever 'broken'. Various agreements with the Palestinians (none of which are 'peace agreements' exactly) were breached by both sides on multiple occasions.

 

Both sources on your links would reference criticism on the situation where a country is singled out thus, especially with so many other bad players and even worse transgressions are about.

 

Genocide would imply the demise of the Palestinian people. There are more Palestinians now then there's ever been. One of the claims raised by 'supporters' of the Palestinians is that their numbers amount to a demographic majority, and increasing. If it is indeed a 'genocide', it's pretty lame one.

 

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Then Israel fought back and won the war and kept the Sinai

TBL's claim was that Egypt won the war and gained the Sinai back, which just didn't happen .

No. He made no such claim. What he did claiim was that the Egyptian troops overwhelmed the Israelis. And in the early stage of the war that was true.

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, KhunLA said:

On contraire ... 1967 was the catalyst for the instability in the region.   Israel's use USA military aid offensively violates the agreement to supply military aid, (for defense only) thus why the attempt to sink the USS Liberty.

 

Palestinians/freedom fighters, simply trying to recoup what was taken from them in 1967.   Tried many time to have peace accords and expansion agreements with Israel, which has ignored all of them.

 

The stack (100s) of UN resolutions condemning Israel should be evidence enough of that.  That doesn't even count the USA's use of its United Nations Security Council veto power 42 times against resolutions condemning Israel, out of a total 83 times in which its veto has ever been used.

source

 

Strange support to a nation that murdered US sailors ????

 

Want to continue the conversation, you should enlighten yourself to a few facts.

This is a conversation about the current war between Israel and Hamas , really don't need to keep hearing Americans going on about "They sunk our boat in 1967"

[Skipalongcassidy]

8 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Nonsense. Israel's continuous expansion was not negotiated but opposed by nearly the whole world.

They have not expanded... they have yet to reach the boundaries agreed upon...

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

They have not expanded... they have yet to reach the boundaries agreed upon...

Again nonsense.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Russia, Iran, who knows?

I doubt there was ever a serious claim Russia funds Hamas, or aides it in any material way.

Iran mostly supports the Islamic Jihad, a smaller, more militant outfit. Hamas getting Iranian funds is an on/off thing, having to do with power plays between Iran and Arab rivals. Qatar was/is sponsoring a whole lot of 'officially' civilian projects and subsidies in the Gaza Strip. The deal was funds won't be used for military purposes, but good luck with that. Quite a lot of crypto action by Hamas as well, and obviously, sucking whatever they can from the local populace.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Google is your friends.  Stopping the flow of essentials, kills people, that's genocide ... IMHO

 

The Gaza Strip was not always under 'siege'. This largely came about in response to Hamas attacks and stance. Every time the chill down some, they get extra concessions and an easing of the blockade. The very same is maintained by Egypt as well.

[MrMojoRisin]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

That's a fine ethical and moral point. What standards is the Hamas (actually and effectively) 'judged' by?

Who should we compare Hamas with when judging them?

 

Other terrorist organisations of course.
 

Israel probably belongs in the same bucket.

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

No. He made no such claim. What he did claiim was that the Egyptian troops overwhelmed the Israelis. And in the early stage of the war that was true.

He did make that claim

This is the claim he made 

 

 

"The Sinai was never part of modern Israel, and they lost it in the last Egyptian campaign anyway."

 

  "They" being Israel , "lost it" was about the Sinai and he claimed that Israel lost the Sinai in the last Egyptian campaign 

    The reality is that Israel gave back the Sinai in the 1979 peace deal with Egypt 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Why did Palestinians launch an attack on Israel?

According to Hamas officials, the main operative goal was to secure captives for a possible prisoner swap. The public pretext and motivational declarations were the usual 'save al-aska' stuff. On a political front - a need to reassert their relevance and credentials. But mostly, this seems to have been driven by the hostage/prisoners thing. IMO, it just went better than expected.

[mania]

16 hours ago, Social Media said:

"We are at war," says Israel's PM Benjamin Netanyahu, after a surprise Palestinian attack saw hundreds of rockets hit Israel from Gaza

This has Netanyahu Black Flag written all over it

 

Israel has had Iron Dome since 2011 never more than a random rocket falling short of populated areas...Now this?

 

Something is as usual in Israel

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, mania said:

This has Netanyahu Black Flag written all over it

 

Israel has had Iron Dome since 2011 never more than a random rocket falling short of populated areas...Now this?

 

Something is as usual in Israel

Tin foil hat alert.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

According to Hamas officials, the main operative goal was to secure captives for a possible prisoner swap. The public pretext and motivational declarations were the usual 'save al-aska' stuff. On a political front - a need to reassert their relevance and credentials. But mostly, this seems to have been driven by the hostage/prisoners thing. IMO, it just went better than expected.

The success was in no small part due to the failure of Israel’s Intelligence Services.

 

 

[connda]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed. The Israelis should read their own Bible ( the old testament ).

 

10. Proverbs 22:8 Whoever sows injustice will reap calamity, and the rod of his fury will fail.

Commonly called Karma here in SE Asia. 

All we will hear is "Israel's right to exist."  What we'll never hear is "Palestine's right to exist."
There is a casus belli to this incursion by Hamas which has to do with Israel's more militant right-wing government constant incursion and takeovers of Palestinian territory (there is a country that was once called Palestine populated by Palestinian Arabs and Christians) and the ejection of Palestinians into what amounts to modern day ghettos in the West Bank and Gaza. 

Ever since I've been born, that area has been a human right catastrophe for Palestinian Arabs. What is happening is quid pro quo unfortunately.  That area has been a human-rights pressure cooker with the relief valve welded shut.  There has been terror inflicted on normal civilians on both sides.  Pretty soon, maybe now - Boom!

It's unfortunate that the West has never been able to implement a "two state solution."  And year after year, decade after decade, the Palestinian State shrinks as Israel establishes more and more "settlements" by forcefully removing Palestinians from Palestinian land and then absorbing those territories into Israel.  That's just reality.  And it's the force creating the tensions that leads to this conflict.

It's unfortunate that the militant factions on both sides, Israeli and Palestinian wish to see the ethnic cleansing of the other side and their removal from the Eastern Mediterranean region.  The only real losers are the civilians on both sides whom wish to simply co-exist and live in peace. 

[mania]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Tin foil hat alert.

Far Left usual BS alert

 

That aside so your saying the flawless past decade of Iron Dome is suddenly faulty?

 

Heck even the JDL is posting here again after almost two years break

Edited October 8, 2023 by mania

[Morch]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

How is it possible that the highly praised Israeli intelligence agencies missed this? How can Hamas have build up such an arsenal in the completely controlled Gaza strip?

The rocket arsenal was not a secret. It gets re-stocked after each confrontation - which makes one wonder just how effective/tight the 'siege' is. The ground attack did not utilize much special means. As per Israel's intelligence failure (which I'm sure will be a focus for investigations post-war), part hubris, part a successful effort by the Palestinians, and part neglect. Especially with commemoration date, it's widely equated with the 1973 surprise.

 

Intelligence gathering is easier than correctly analyzing intentions.

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

He did make that claim

This is the claim he made 

 

 

"The Sinai was never part of modern Israel, and they lost it in the last Egyptian campaign anyway."

 

  "They" being Israel , "lost it" was about the Sinai and he claimed that Israel lost the Sinai in the last Egyptian campaign 

    The reality is that Israel gave back the Sinai in the 1979 peace deal with Egypt 

You're correct. My mistake.

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, Morch said:

According to Hamas officials, the main operative goal was to secure captives for a possible prisoner swap. The public pretext and motivational declarations were the usual 'save al-aska' stuff. On a political front - a need to reassert their relevance and credentials. But mostly, this seems to have been driven by the hostage/prisoners thing. IMO, it just went better than expected.

Certainly possible. But given that they must have known that this would invite massive retaliation from the Israelis, I believe that this was basically directed at Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Qatar and whatever other Arab nations are considering a rapprochement with Israel.

Edited October 8, 2023 by placeholder

[Morch]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

The Israeli cabinet has resolved this morning to destroy  Hamas and the Islamic jihad operational capabilities, and not to stop until this target was achieved, stop water, electricity, and stop allowing the entrance of goods and services to Gaza..

 

It's the same cabinet that made this fiasco possible. Very good on hot air statements, getting important things done, not so much.

[norfolkandchance]

3 minutes ago, mania said:

Far Left usual BS alert

 

That aside so your saying the flawless past decade of Iron Dome is suddenly faulty?

 

Heck even the JDL is posting here again after almost two years brek

Well it was in the Guardian.

[Nick Carter icp]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

According to Hamas officials, the main operative goal was to secure captives for a possible prisoner swap. The public pretext and motivational declarations were the usual 'save al-aska' stuff. On a political front - a need to reassert their relevance and credentials. But mostly, this seems to have been driven by the hostage/prisoners thing. IMO, it just went better than expected.

Now they have the hostages , what do you think the outcome will be ?

[sqwakvfr]

Been watching Al Jazeera for the last couple of hours and I know what side they are on.  Some of the esteemed guests on AJ are saying "Israel had it coming, Israel deserves it".  I also heard one of their anchors say 
"Hamas Military operation into Israel".  This was as when of the video of an Israel women was dragged in and of of an SUV at gun point.  I am expecting a cheering squad to appear on air in support of "Hamas Military Operation" any moment.  I just checked Russia Today and they are clearly on the side of Hamas.  This could go on for a while. Does Gaza now become a flat piece of land by next week? 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The weapons come in through tunnels from the Sinai, which is not under Israeli control, and Hamas would have been well aware of Israeli stooges/ spies and probably killed them.

When a network of spies, or a series of surveillance devices suddenly goes down, it's a warning sign by itself. Even so, hundreds of operatives moving to the border and passages were ought to be caught by surveillance measures and personnel within Israel, so that an alarm could be raised. This did not happen. This was obviously planned at least months ago, if not longer.  A complete failure of Israel's intelligence community.

[billd766]

9 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

You are now going to two different hells for saying that , you are going to the Muslims hell and the Jewish hell 

That only works if you are religious in any way. Going back centuries religion has caused more deaths than any wars between any countries.

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

If Israel would have honored the agreements, and not invaded and taken their land in 1967 ... their wouldn't be much to fight over.

 

This has been a never-ending 55 yrs ongoing war.  Didn't just start last week.

Get your historical facts straight, then maul them to fit your argument. In 1967, the West Bank was illegally annexed by Jordan, while the Gaza Strip was effectively under Egyptian military control. There was no 'their land' for the Palestinians even then. The was, and (initially) the subsequent occupation had little to do with the Palestinian issue.

 

[spidermike007]

Unfortunately, the Israeli government is jammed full of extremists, haters, and corrupt criminal fools. Highly unreasonable men. 

 

All of Israel’s most dangerous politicians are now in one place—Even before the new Israeli government was officially sworn in on Dec. 29, angry reactions began emerging, not only among Palestinians and other Middle Eastern governments, but also among Israel’s historic allies in the West. As early as Nov. 2, top US officials conveyed to Axios that the Biden administration is “unlikely to engage with Jewish supremacist politician, Itamar Ben-Gvir.”

 

In fact, the U.S. government’s apprehensions surpassed Ben-Gvir, who was convicted by Israel’s own court in 2007 for supporting a terrorist organization and inciting racism.

U.S. Secretary of State Tony Blinken and National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan reportedly “hinted” that the U.S. government would also boycott “other right-wing extremists” in Netanyahu’s government.

However, these strong concerns seemed absent from the congratulatory statement by the U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Tom Nides, on the following day. Nides relayed that he had “congratulated (Netanyahu) on his victory and told him that I look forward to working together to maintain the unbreakable bond” between the two countries.

In other words, this “unbreakable bond” is stronger than any public U.S. concern regarding terrorism, extremism, fascism, and criminal activities.

 

Ben-Gvir is not the only convicted criminal in Netanyahu’s government. Aryeh Deri, the leader of the ultra-Orthodox Shas party, was convicted of tax fraud in early 2022 and, in 2000, he served a prison sentence for accepting bribes when he held the position of interior minister.

Bezalel Smotrich is another controversial character, whose anti-Palestinian racism has dominated his political persona for many years.

 

While Ben-Gvir has been assigned the post of national security minister, Deri has been entrusted with the ministry of interior and Smotrich with the ministry of finance.

 

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/all-of-israels-most-dangerous-politicians-are-now-in-one-place-the-government/

Edited October 8, 2023 by spidermike007

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Now they have the hostages , what do you think the outcome will be ?

Well I have an opinion.

I think this time that Israel will make the horrible choice to not prioritize their survival. It's not like in the past when it was just a few people. Hamas might think they can get what they want with these hostages. Israel can't let them do that.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Jingthing