The REAL EV vehicle discussion thread.....

[KhunLA]

19 minutes ago, proton said:

MG are Chinese so definitely would not even consider one no matter how cheap

Without the batteries from China, along with so many other car components from China, you won't be owning an EV anytime soon.  And you may want to consider getting rid of that ICE you have now with those Chinese parts in it.

????

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

If they have a 'swap' program in place, the replacement becomes a mute subject.

That would be a solution in the future....  Batteries which could ‘side out of the floor panel’ and be easily swapped out. But currently, changing out the batter in an EV involves pretty much completely disassembling the vehicle itself..... The a ‘swap program’ is not something that exists at the moment. 

 

That said - I believe the tech needs to go down this route and make battery swapping so convenient that battery swapping could also take place at ‘charging stations’ where instead of waiting for a hour to fully charge your car the battery itself is ‘switched out’....   obviously batteries need to get a lot smaller. 

 

Of course, the issue there is getting the manufactures in-line with the same size / swappable batteries. 

 

 

[CharlieH]

Troll remarks removed.

[proton]

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Without the batteries from China, along with so many other car components from China, you won't be owning an EV anytime soon.  And you may want to consider getting rid of that ICE you have now with those Chinese parts in it.

????

True but at least you can make supporting Chinese companies as minimal as possible.

[richard_smith237]

28 minutes ago, proton said:

30 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

There are plenty of those here.

All Thai Taxi uses them....   There are also plenty of other hyrbids such as the Toyota Camry, then there are plenty of Plug-in hybrids. 

 

Thus: These are a good alliterative and perhaps the best option if range is a concern rather than going ‘full EV’ - at least with the current tech. 

 

 

Expand  

I thought taxis were all corolla and used gas? Yaris are far too small for 3 in the back

Prius... not Yaris... and the Prius is the same size as the Altis... 

 

That said - they are rare in comparison to the Altis Taxi’s... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

32 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

Its a good indication of where the market will have to go for EV’s to be truly viable.

Unless battery tech becomes so well developed that batteries last for 30 years and can run for 1000’s of KM and quick charge in 30mins. 

 

Of course, there is still major outstanding issue which is always glossed over - and that is the environmentally and ethical friendliness of producing the batteries in the first place. 

 

[RafPinto]

10 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

That would be a solution in the future....  Batteries which could ‘side out of the floor panel’ and be easily swapped out. But currently, changing out the batter in an EV involves pretty much completely disassembling the vehicle itself..... The a ‘swap program’ is not something that exists at the moment. 

 

That said - I believe the tech needs to go down this route and make battery swapping so convenient that battery swapping could also take place at ‘charging stations’ where instead of waiting for a hour to fully charge your car the battery itself is ‘switched out’....   obviously batteries need to get a lot smaller. 

 

Of course, the issue there is getting the manufactures in-line with the same size / swappable batteries. 

 

 

https://www.smart-energy.com/industry-sectors/electric-vehicles/ev-battery-swapping-is-it-set-for-revival/

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Of course, there is still major outstanding issue which is always glossed over - and that is the environmentally and ethical friendliness of producing the batteries in the first place. 

 

As with every product produced.  Horse & buggy works.  Better just make that horse, as the buggy production, may not be eco friendly.

 

Then there's the ethics of 'beast of burden' .... Oh C r a p ... ????

[richard_smith237]

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

As with every product produced.  Horse & buggy works.  Better just make that horse, as the buggy production, may not be eco friendly.

 

Then there's the ethics of 'beast of burden' .... Oh C r a p ... ????

We’d have the vegetarians arguing about the excessive methane generated from all the horses !!! 

 

But seriously though....  Are EV's truly a more environmentally friendly alternative to ICEV's ???? 

 

While I am convinced EV’s are cleaner for our cities, I’m not convinced they are more environmentally friendly when considering the whole package  (sourcing metals for batteries etc to disposal of the those same batteries at the end of the cycle). 

 

 

[Lacessit]

28 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Without the batteries from China, along with so many other car components from China, you won't be owning an EV anytime soon.  And you may want to consider getting rid of that ICE you have now with those Chinese parts in it.

????

AFAIK my 2006 Vios has no Chinese parts in it. At 175,000 km, and me aged 79, it could well see me out. Toyota presumably now regrets making the 1.5 L ICE in that model virtually bulletproof. Last check, 6.4 litres of 91 /100 km.

 

I have no problem with accepting EV's will eventually replace the ICE in passenger vehicles. I have my doubts about heavy haulage applications.

 

What I find difficult to accept is EV fanboys who refuse to acknowledge it is still a new technology with quite a few flaws still to be eliminated. Capital outlay, depreciation, battery replacement cost, charging station reliability, availability and speed, range, environmental issues before and after, stored energy. The list goes on and on.

 

Personally, I'd rather have an ICE that runs out of petrol/diesel in the middle of the Australian outback. I can always flag down another vehicle to beg enough fuel to get me to a service station. Permit me to doubt I will be able to flag down an EV with an ICE generator on board. Or that they will be willing to share their electrons.

[SomchaiDIY]

45 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

But seriously though....  Are EV's truly a more environmentally friendly alternative to ICEV's ???? 

This video i post is not full answer but can give many question on this subject for people to think

 

Electric car can be a advantage for many people but many people fall into trap they not understand

 

 

 

 

 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, transam said:

Is that car 8 years old, or are they getting it ready for 8 years time.....?   

Well that is one car, NOT an MG, and if the video timing is correct it takes only 1 minute 42 seconds to replace the battery and requires no humans at all.

What wasn't shown of course was the cost of the replacement battery and if a discount was given for the old battery.

 

Now fast forward 8 years and replace a battery that has been in situ for 8 years.  The battery tray will be rusty, covered in all sorts of crud, bolts rusted in and bent and it will need physical support from humans to get it out. The chassis may have to be cut as well as the battery frame holders and it certainly the old battery will take much longer that 1.42 minutes to remove and may be worth twice the sq/root of FA.

 

So what will you car be worth then?

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

We’d have the vegetarians arguing about the excessive methane generated from all the horses !!! 

 

But seriously though....  Are EV's truly a more environmentally friendly alternative to ICEV's ???? 

 

TBH ... I really don't care.  Agree, definitely better for air quality in metro area. I actually wouldn't buy a diesel just for that reason, and, I wouldn't have a clue how to fix one.  Not that I'd actually work on my ICE anyway.  

 

I don't think my DIY drone knowledge is going to help with maintaining the EV, though no need to worry for 5 yrs.

 

EV vs ICE is strictly financially motivated reason for us, and a few less trips to the dealer for maintenance. 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, transam said:

So why give a 160,000km battery guarantee, surely that is a head scratcher for a buyer...?   ????

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:
I believe the warranty is it won't degrade below 70% within those 8 yrs.  And I'd be hard pressed to put 200k kms on a car in 20 yrs now.  I won't be out & about as much, and I seemed to put 100-120k kms / 7 ish years on past cars.

 

I read most EVs get 1500-2000 cycles out of their batteries.  Using a very negative 1000 cycles for the MGs, and your looking at 400k kms before battery needs replacement.  That's a very negative estimate.  Use the 1500-2000 range and it's 600-800k kms.

 

..... nuff said

 

My 21 year old Ford Ranger has 443,xxx km on the clock and is STILL rattling along, so your 200,000 km in 20 years seems a very low estimate to me. Only 10,000 km per year?

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

AFAIK my 2006 Vios has no Chinese parts in it. At 175,000 km, and me aged 79, it could well see me out. Toyota presumably now regrets making the 1.5 L ICE in that model virtually bulletproof. Last check, 6.4 litres of 91 /100 km.

 

I have no problem with accepting EV's will eventually replace the ICE in passenger vehicles. I have my doubts about heavy haulage applications.

 

What I find difficult to accept is EV fanboys who refuse to acknowledge it is still a new technology with quite a few flaws still to be eliminated. Capital outlay, depreciation, battery replacement cost, charging station reliability, availability and speed, range, environmental issues before and after, stored energy. The list goes on and on.

 

Personally, I'd rather have an ICE that runs out of petrol/diesel in the middle of the Australian outback. I can always flag down another vehicle to beg enough fuel to get me to a service station. Permit me to doubt I will be able to flag down an EV with an ICE generator on board. Or that they will be willing to share their electrons.

I'm still a youngin', so going EV will be beneficial.  Along with the wife, 20+ yrs junior, and probably her last car also.  We ain't putting 400-800k kms on anything before we c r a p out.

 

EV vs ICE is strictly financially motivated decision for us, and a few less trips to the dealer for maintenance never hurts either.  Every 10k kms for oil change .... PLEASE ????

 

Probably in 5 yrs, our EVs battery tech will be considered ancient ... or not.  I don't feel like waiting.  As I don't see anything around the immediate corner worth waiting for, that will be mass produced and available to TH.

 

AND that ฿240k incentive, was quite the incentive. ????

 

Thailand is so small, it would be pretty hard to run out of 'battery' before another top up station down the road.   Since not many 'open' roads here, 4 hr is more than enough for me at one time behind the wheel, as I'll need a break anyway if going further.

 

I had 2 Vios s, decent cars. ????

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

I believe its a 5 minute alternative to a 30+ minute charging wait to top up.  Pretty cool really.  You simply pull in front of the station, and car auto parks itself into position.

 

China once again, way ahead of the rest of the world... Rock on

Industrial EV have been doing battery swaps for 40 years that I know about, nothing new about that. 

 

I think the idea of swapping batteries at a station make sense, but even assuming you have one battery that fits all cars, the power requirement and logistics would be a nightmare. 

 

Each station services hundreds of vehicles a day, so each station have have to be able to test, charge and store hundreds of batteries a day. The costs of such a facility would be many times the cost of a traditional pump.

[Kwasaki]

20 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Well that is one car, NOT an MG, and if the video timing is correct it takes only 1 minute 42 seconds to replace the battery and requires no humans at all.

What wasn't shown of course was the cost of the replacement battery and if a discount was given for the old battery.

 

Now fast forward 8 years and replace a battery that has been in situ for 8 years.  The battery tray will be rusty, covered in all sorts of crud, bolts rusted in and bent and it will need physical support from humans to get it out. The chassis may have to be cut as well as the battery frame holders and it certainly the old battery will take much longer that 1.42 minutes to remove and may be worth twice the sq/root of FA.

 

So what will you car be worth then?

I thought it was someone's car running out of battery so they go to this place drive in drive out with a charged up battery.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

I believe the warranty is it won't degrade below 70% within those 8 yrs.  And I'd be hard pressed to put 200k kms on a car in 20 yrs now.  I won't be out & about as much, and I seemed to put 100-120k kms / 7 ish years on past cars.

 

I read most EVs get 1500-2000 cycles out of their batteries.  Using a very negative 1000 cycles for the MGs, and your looking at 400k kms before battery needs replacement.  That's a very negative estimate.  Use the 1500-2000 range and it's 600-800k kms.

 

..... nuff said

Yet when you ran your numbers did you not use 180kkm in eight years to justify it? As I recall, even then it didn't really pencil out. 

[KhunLA]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yet when you ran your numbers did you not use 180kkm in eight years to justify it? As I recall, even then it didn't really pencil out. 

Yes I did, and yes it did pencil out .... think this is it, and for us, scratch the 90k as most will be charged from solar.  And also E85 is ฿37.24 now

 

So that's while under warranty 1.4m vs 1m, 8yr/180 kms

Double that for the next 8 yrs - 2.8m vs 2m

 

Buy in + operating cost for 8 yrs / 180 kms

 

[BKKBike09]

13 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Yes I did, and yes it did pencil out .... think this is it, and for us, scratch the 90k as most will be charged from solar.  And also E85 is ฿37.24 now

 

So that's while under warranty 1.4m vs 1m, 8yr/180 kms

Double that for the next 8 yrs - 2.8m vs 2m

 

Buy in + operating cost for 8 yrs / 180 kms

 

Surely you need to try and factor in how governments will tax road use by EVs instead of just pushing a pure "energy" cost.  

 

Tax on fuel is a massive contributor to government tax revenues in most countries. If millions of drivers shift to EVs, do you really think governments will say "thanks for helping the environment guys, no tax for you!". For sure there will have to be some new tax to replace that lost on fuel revenues: dynamic road pricing, "per km" pricing based on your EV reporting its daily mileage to a government server etc.

 

Seems to me EVs make sense for urban driving but are still way too expensive in comparison to a traditional ICE (what's the acronym these days for In Car Entertainment) unless you do mega-mileage. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Yes I did, and yes it did pencil out .... think this is it, and for us, scratch the 90k as most will be charged from solar.  And also E85 is ฿37.24 now

 

So that's while under warranty 1.4m vs 1m, 8yr/180 kms

Double that for the next 8 yrs - 2.8m vs 2m

 

Buy in + operating cost for 8 yrs / 180 kms

 

But earlier in this thread you stated you would not drive 200,000km in twenty years, but you are using 180,000 in eight years for your justification. That's what we call "creative accounting". 

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

Surely you need to try and factor in how governments will tax road use by EVs instead of just pushing a pure "energy" cost.  

Agreed...   

 

IF we become ‘reliant’ on EV’s (as they are the only vehicles available) then either road tax for those EV’s will sky-rocket, or there will be huge tax hike on electricity. 

 

Then, there will be those who want to produce their own solar electricity, somehow so they wont be impacted by the tax hike on electricity... 

 

Thus: the only way I see this working in lieu of tax on fuel there will be a road tax hike to the point that any theoretical saving by an EV is cancelled out. 

 

The simple fact is that the governments need this tax (from fuel), so alternatives taxation methods will be created. 

[Excel]

3 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

Surely you need to try and factor in how governments will tax road use by EVs instead of just pushing a pure "energy" cost.  

 

Tax on fuel is a massive contributor to government tax revenues in most countries. If millions of drivers shift to EVs, do you really think governments will say "thanks for helping the environment guys, no tax for you!". For sure there will have to be some new tax to replace that lost on fuel revenues: dynamic road pricing, "per km" pricing based on your EV reporting its daily mileage to a government server etc.

 

Seems to me EVs make sense for urban driving but are still way too expensive in comparison to a traditional ICE (what's the acronym these days for In Car Entertainment) unless you do mega-mileage. 

 

 

When it comes to the environment all governments are simply paying lip service. They  are self-serving politicians after all who would sell their Mothers to a whorehouse if they thought they could get something out of it. 

The bait is to encourage people to go EV due to the climate. That's just simply shaming people to look after their planet better, yet the real aim for all governments is to get as many people on the hook and then introduce a significant and no doubt disproportionate Electricity Tax for vehicles.

Unless 100% of the additional power requirements for vehicular use is generated from renewable resources that has zero climate impact then I'm afraid as much as EV's are a nice to have and a good idea it only elevates political hypocrisy to higher levels.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I'm still a youngin', so going EV will be beneficial.  Along with the wife, 20+ yrs junior, and probably her last car also.  We ain't putting 400-800k kms on anything before we c r a p out.

 

EV vs ICE is strictly financially motivated decision for us, and a few less trips to the dealer for maintenance never hurts either.  Every 10k kms for oil change .... PLEASE ????

 

Probably in 5 yrs, our EVs battery tech will be considered ancient ... or not.  I don't feel like waiting.  As I don't see anything around the immediate corner worth waiting for, that will be mass produced and available to TH.

 

AND that ฿240k incentive, was quite the incentive. ????

 

Thailand is so small, it would be pretty hard to run out of 'battery' before another top up station down the road.   Since not many 'open' roads here, 4 hr is more than enough for me at one time behind the wheel, as I'll need a break anyway if going further.

 

I had 2 Vios s, decent cars. ????

I would probably be going for an EV myself in Thailand if I was younger and richer, the cost per kilometre is pretty convincing. The recharging infrastructure is better, in Australia it is pitiful, a legacy of a government that is now history, deservedly so.

EV's still require servicing, bearings have to be lubricated with petroleum based products.

It was Arthur C Clarke who defined the perfect machine as having no moving parts.

[GroveHillWanderer]

4 hours ago, transam said:

I see that many brands give an 8 year guarantee on batteries, but, that 8 years is "OR 100,000 miles", about 160,000Km. ????

Now, if you cover many Km's in your EV, the batteries could be stuffed well before that 8 years.

 

What about when you want to buy a new EV, is the value of the car going to be carp because the battery life or Km is near, whereas, here in LOS gas car's hold reasonable value till old age, in other words, trade in value.

The batteries may only be fully guaranteed for 8 years, or 160,000 miles (for Tesla) but that doesn't mean that's as long as they last.

 

Some car rental companies have cars that have done the equivalent of twenty years-worth of mileage for a normal motorist and the batteries are still fine.

 

And battery technology keeps on improving. Tesla has just unveiled a new battery design that could last up to 100 years or 4 million miles, for instance.

 

Tesla Researcher Demonstrates 100-Year, 4-Million-Mile Battery

 

[KhunLA]

31 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

EV's still require servicing, bearings have to be lubricated with petroleum based products.

Haven't a clue what EV check up/maintenance (฿2k / yr)would involve, besides just scam reason to make up loss of income from silly oil changes every 10k kms.

 

Unless they run a capacity check on batteries, then excellent, and good to know.  2k is about the price of 1 oil change.  We had 2 the first 6 months with the ZS, then 3rd recently, for 1.5 yrs of owning the ZS (ICE).

 

I took the figure from MG site - ฿9k x 1.8 = ฿16.2k:

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

4 hours ago, transam said:

So why give a 160,000km battery guarantee, surely that is a head scratcher for a buyer...?   ????

I'm not sure why you have such a bee in your bonnet over the warranty period for EV batteries.

 

As the article below mentions, although "the average lifetime mileage of an ICE vehicle is about 133,000 miles, [...] the average ICE vehicle drivetrain warranty [is] 5 years or 60,000 miles."

 

So why is it not equally "a head scratcher" that ICE vehicle manufacturers give a warranty that is less than half the expected life-span?

 

How long does an electric car battery last?

 

The fact is that the period for which a manufacturer will give you a guaranteed, cost-free replacement for something is not the same as the predicted or expected life span.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

But earlier in this thread you stated you would not drive 200,000km in twenty years, but you are using 180,000 in eight years for your justification. That's what we call "creative accounting". 

Just used that because our out & abouts are winding down.  And it's a good base, for others to compare.  In the past, yes, we racked up about 20k +/- a year.  

 

But using the past year of driving, only 10k on the ZS (ICE) & 2500 on the E-MB.  We could easily get by on 5k kms a year, as everything, 7-11, Makro, surf is within 5 kms of the house.  Those 10k on the car include a few out & abouts. 

 

Averaging about 10k a year sounds about right in the future, and that's IF, I live that long.  The wife is a homebody, and she would only do 5k a year after I c r a p out.  Right now we're doing, mostly me & dog, 10 kms a day, so < 5k a yr.  and that's all on the scooter, which won't change with the EV car.  I don't think anyway.

[transam]

42 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The batteries may only be fully guaranteed for 8 years, or 160,000 miles (for Tesla) but that doesn't mean that's as long as they last.

 

Some car rental companies have cars that have done the equivalent of twenty years-worth of mileage for a normal motorist and the batteries are still fine.

 

And battery technology keeps on improving. Tesla has just unveiled a new battery design that could last up to 100 years or 4 million miles, for instance.

 

Tesla Researcher Demonstrates 100-Year, 4-Million-Mile Battery

 

Then give a longer warrantee, so folk buy more EV's, simple, why don't they..?

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, BKKBike09 said:

Surely you need to try and factor in how governments will tax road use by EVs instead of just pushing a pure "energy" cost.  

 

Tax on fuel is a massive contributor to government tax revenues in most countries. If millions of drivers shift to EVs, do you really think governments will say "thanks for helping the environment guys, no tax for you!". For sure there will have to be some new tax to replace that lost on fuel revenues: dynamic road pricing, "per km" pricing based on your EV reporting its daily mileage to a government server etc.

 

Seems to me EVs make sense for urban driving but are still way too expensive in comparison to a traditional ICE (what's the acronym these days for In Car Entertainment) unless you do mega-mileage. 

 

 

Maybe the govt will pinch some of that tax money off of PEA, along with the premium price / tax they get from CS (charging stations)

 

Love the what if scenarios.  What if no tax for next 10 or 20 years, as an incentive to go EV ....  OH MY .... ????  think positive once in a while.

 

always with the negative waves.