When does it become time to put money aside in a separate account and self insure?

[Scouse123]

Guys, I am at the 61 years old mark. I don't smoke, I do drink but not for the next few months as I am on a health kick. I only drink wine or beer and not heavy stuff or spirits.

 

I get regular health checks which I pay for. A recent one, the doctor stated my vitals and bloods were good as were all my organs.

 

I also get annual health check at Bangkok hospital, Khonkaen and try to stay in a reasonable condition. My check last year was a decent result considering my age and just a few age related areas to keep an eye on.

 

I need to be a bit more active exercise wise, which I will be doing this week and get back into a health routine.

 

I have a number of long term friends in Thailand that basically self insure, this is mainly due to the fact that they are late seventies and early eighties and they tell me they are in fact not insurable, due to age or premiums that are simply unaffordable.

 

After seeing recent postings on this board of insurance companies doing anything to get out of paying and null and voiding accounts with ' small print clauses ' I am wondering if these premiums are a waste of time and would I be better off just putting those fees in a separate ' health account '

Edited June 29, 2023 by Scouse123

[Jingthing]

This is a hard question. You could develop a condition that would exclude you from decent coverage or coverage at all tomorrow. It sounds like right now you can have a clean application. If I were you I would do lots of research on the best agents and best companies and apply for the insurance. No guarantees but it would be a fair enough bet if your record is really as clean as you present it here.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

If you only set aside an amount equal to what you would pay in premiums each year, you would be seriously underfunded. You'd need several million baht from day one in order to address a catastrophic accident or illness, assuming you'd wish to be treated at a private hospital. Less, but still significant amounts, if treatment is sought at a government hospital. We just never know when we will fall ill or have an accident, even if we are otherwise healthy.

 

I would suggest looking into health insurance from insurers located outside Thailand. Coverage is often better as is claims-paying attitude and consumer protection laws.

[brianthainess]

Another question is how much do you need to self insure, at 72yr if 2million in Govt Hospital wouldn't cover it then IMO its all over, end of, bye bye and thanks for all the fish.

[howerde]

After my experience with a Thai insurer, i now self insure, i had a minor claim about 15000baht(first claim in 5 years), first they refused to pay out as i had not notified them within 24 hours, lucky for me my doctor sorted it,  i to had a annual health check nothing was found but in my 60s usual thing get fit etc etc, after 3 months of my claim, the hospital contacted me and said the insurer wanted my hospital records i really had no choice but agree, then 2 months later they upped my premium 88% with loads of exclusions, even though the health check showed nothing, i did not renew. 

[mokwit]

Seems you can't insure for what yo really need to - over 70 health care needs and end of life/debilitation.

[bignok]

Holiday account, health account. $50 a week into each.

[sammieuk1]

None of us are getting out of here alive.. any pre existing are not covered but at least doubles your premium anyway. so after not much consideration I don't have any insurance unless I can find a reasonable rate no quibble insurer that's unfortunately the way it will stay not ideal but the way is ????   

[bkk6060]

The self insured folks I know seem foolish.  100 to 500 k is very little for a major illness or accident.

Unless you have about 2 million today in an account for this, you are way under insured.  Good luck.

[K2938]

48 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I would suggest looking into health insurance from insurers located outside Thailand. Coverage is often better as is claims-paying attitude and consumer protection laws.

Yes, get insurance from an insurer in a WESTERN country, even if it might at first appear more expensive.  Insurance which does not pay is no good. 

And get insurance where renewal is guaranteed and the maximum premium increase is defined.  Otherwise you again face the same problem

Edited June 29, 2023 by K2938

[FriendlyFarang]

Most people who say they "self insure" just say this to feel better, the majority of them have way too little money to self insure. I think for many of them the 800k that they have in their bank account counts as self insured.

Everything under 5 million baht you can't really call "self insured".

 

Let's say you now have 5 million baht, and are diagnosed with cancer, treatment might cost you 3 million. After you are done with cancer treatment your "self insure" budget is down to 2 million.

How will you top this up to 5 million again? Do you go back to your home country for a few years where you would get free treatment, until you saved up another 3 million to be properly "self insured" abroad?

[bignok]

6 minutes ago, FriendlyFarang said:

Most people who say they "self insure" just say this to feel better, the majority of them have way too little money to self insure. I think for many of them the 800k that they have in their bank account counts as self insured.

Everything under 5 million baht you can't really call "self insured".

 

Let's say you now have 5 million baht, and are diagnosed with cancer, treatment might cost you 3 million. After you are done with cancer treatment your "self insure" budget is down to 2 million.

How will you top this up to 5 million again? Do you go back to your home country for a few years where you would get free treatment, until you saved up another 3 million to be properly "self insured" abroad?

We all die. Nobody except the top 2% have loads of money.

[scubascuba3]

Those insured should also be self insured as a "claim denied" is likely and common.

 

Being self insured is more common than people think, some have enough money and some don't.

 

i self insure because i don't trust insurance companies to pay out on some things and if you can't be sure they will pay why bother paying premiums.

 

I don't put any money in a separate account i just know I'll need to pay for it from savings and investments. For some very serious conditions like cancer I'll probably go back to UK NHS unless over a certain age then won't bother getting treatment

[K2938]

17 minutes ago, bignok said:

We all die. Nobody except the top 2% have loads of money.

So if you are not part of your self-defined top 2%, you should get insurance.  Simple as this.

[London Lowf]

I sometimes look at things from an unusual perpective.....

 

Insurance is gambling - the underwriter/actuary has calculated the chances of you making a claim and offers you a premium that they reckon will make them money - they are a business, after all.

 

By paying the premium you are effectively punting on the fact that they got their figures wrong and that your chances of getting sick are higher than they think - that's the only way you can "win".

 

By self-insuring you are denying the insurance industry their profits - but also taking a chance. However, the odds ARE in your favour.

 

(In much the same way, the odds of winning the lottery are stacked against you, but people still do it and some do win)

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by London Lowf

[bignok]

13 minutes ago, K2938 said:

So if you are not part of your self-defined top 2%, you should get insurance.  Simple as this.

Do both.

[bignok]

1 minute ago, London Lowf said:

I sometime look at things from an unusual perpective.....

 

Insurance is gambling - the underwriter/actuary has calculated the chances of you making a claim and offers you a premium that they reckon will make them money - they are a business, after all.

 

By paying the premium you are effectively punting on the fact that they got their figures wrong and that your chances of getting sick are higher than they think - that's the only way you can "win".

 

By self-insuring you are denying the insurance industry their profits - but also taking a chance. However, the odds ARE in your favour.

True but if bad car crash or bad cancer then you need something. A basic policy is better than nothing. 

[Chivas]

No amount of saving in an account will cover serious Trauma, Strokes or Heart attacks whereby you're in an Intensive Care Unit for a long period of time

 

The question always remains as to just HOW you get that money out of the account in the first place.

 

Remember you're in a coma....

[stoner]

21 minutes ago, K2938 said:

So if you are not part of your self-defined top 2%, you should get insurance.  Simple as this.

almost everyone here (AN) is the top 1 percent. about 5 billion humans live on 5 dollars a day income. 

 

 

[K2938]

10 minutes ago, London Lowf said:

By paying the premium you are effectively punting on the fact that they got their figures wrong and that your chances of getting sick are higher than they think - that's the only way you can "win".

You misunderstand the key purpose of insurance.  It is to avoid catastrophic losses you could not bear yourself.  For all other reasons insurance is indeed not very sensible assuming that the insurer did not get his calculation wrong.  But for health issues for most people the level of catastrophic losses can approach very quickly.  So do not get an insurance for stolen luggage (which you can easily cover yourself), but do get one for health

Edited June 29, 2023 by K2938

[Lacessit]

I self insure because I have to. 80 yo, pre-existing conditions. An application from me here would probably cause merriment among insurance writers..

I do, however, have top level private health cover in Australia. If I have a heart attack or stroke, so be it. Anything else requiring hospital, I am on a plane to Australia.

 I checked health insurance premiums here when I was 72. IIRC it was 300,000 baht/year with no pre-existing conditions.

[London Lowf]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I self insure because I have to. 80 yo, pre-existing conditions. An application from me here would probably cause merriment among insurance writers.

Same here, although a little younger.

 

And I suspect, the same for many retired ex-pats/long termers.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by London Lowf

[scubascuba3]

11 minutes ago, Chivas said:

No amount of saving in an account will cover serious Trauma, Strokes or Heart attacks whereby you're in an Intensive Care Unit for a long period of time

 

The question always remains as to just HOW you get that money out of the account in the first place.

 

Remember you're in a coma....

for many heart attacks and strokes you aren't in an ICU or coma, a guy i know had a heart attack and went to a govt hospital got treated quickly, stent inserted, pretty cheap

[bignok]

17 minutes ago, stoner said:

almost everyone here (AN) is the top 1 percent. about 5 billion humans live on 5 dollars a day income. 

 

 

Source?

[stoner]

4 minutes ago, bignok said:

Source?

my numbers are a little off but you get the idea...

 

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2018/10/17/nearly-half-the-world-lives-on-less-than-550-a-day

 

and this...

 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by stoner

[BritManToo]

Forget insurance, accept death when it comes! 

[sirineou]

An interesting subject indeed !

If you are over 60 I would say self insure. 

   First, they don't cover preexisting conditions and by that age a case can be made that pretty much everything is a pre-existing condition. (except car accidents of course LOL) 

   Second : IMO a health insurance's business plan  is to collect as much as possible, and pay as little as possible. So you might find yourself not only fighting an illness, but also fighting your insurance for compensation.  

   Third: When you get seriously ill at the end of your policy there is a good chance that they  will not renew you. And good luck getting insurance with someone else. Especially when you need it the most . (this I don't know personally , but I remember reading of someone who this happened) 

   And Fourth:As you get older not only your premiums will be going up every year, but at a certain age they will dump you, and no one will insure you. 

 

 I have exactly $100K invested in US treasuries. This year at 4.7% , next year if inflation continues at the same rate I will let it ride, if not I will move it to a different safe investment vehicle. So far , knock on wood, I have not even spend a percentage of the interest I have earned. . 

I have medicare back in the US , so for anything mejor , I will go back to the US (assuming I can travel) 

It just came to my attention that some medicare Advantage plans (Kaiser, Cigna etc) offer international emergency care coverage under certain of their plans, I am looking into it. I suggest every American on medicare living here looks into it also. 

I would appreciate any feedback  from any american who is covered under a medicare Advantage plan that has international emergency coverage. 

[ChrisKC]

This is easy! NOW! start by putting a little aside per month and gradually increase as you age a bit.

 

Saving for any emergency is a wise move!

 

61 is NOT too old to have Health Insurance and for you to decide if affordable.

 

Start something now. Bangkok Bank, and others I assume, you can get Accident Insurance for less than B5,000 per year and covers you Worldwide.

[KhunLA]

@Scouse123

When does it NOT become time to put money aside in a separate account and self insure ?

 

Never had health ins

Never really needed health ins

Never expected a health ins co. to be then when needed

.... nuff said

 

No better time than NOW

 

 

[DFPhuket]

When I was 61, I reviewed several companies and ended up getting insurance through Cigna Global. Similar to you, I had no pre-existing conditions and so the policy has no riders that exclude anything. 

 

My policy has worldwide cover excluding the USA (but I have medicare so that’s unnecessary), plus an annual Health and Wellbeing Screening. It covers all inpatient and cancer treatment with a US$750 deductible and has an annual benefit limit of US$1,000,000. I chose a policy that does not cover outpatient. That’s cheap here and would significantly increase the premium.

 

Five years ago, the premium was US$3,900. I had one stage zero melanoma removed (which barely reached the deductible), but no other claims. 

 

I’m now 66. Over the years the premium has gone up about $200 per year so it’s now $4,800. For me, knowing I’m covered for a serious heart, brain or other medical issue, where I can’t take a 24 hour flight to the US, is worth it.