China's blame game doesn't solve anything.

[ChouDoufu]

14 minutes ago, rabas said:

For those who understand the numbers, they tell us what we think they do. Numbers and equations are just another form of communication.

exactly!  you get it!  few of us posters are trained scientists.  most don't read the actual papers, only the watered-down summaries on the news websites, written by journalists that often merely skim the abstracts or may have their own agendas.  some of us stick to our favorite disinformation sites that feed us a constant diet of quote-mined disinformation.  i see a lot of articles with clickbait headlines promising "proof," but then the underlying journals they reference merely "suggest" or "indicate" some possible explanation.

Edited April 12, 2020 by ChouDoufu

[garrya]

5 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

All viruses mutate when they cross the species barrier and the genome becomes different by a few %. To have a virus that is virtually identical to the SARS-Cov-2 virus in bats means it is almost certainly the origin. No, CoVid-19 has not been found in bats - because that's the disease not the virus and bats don't get sick from the viruses they carry (which is a whole other fascinating story, incidentally).

Humans' and chimpanzees' genomas are only 1,2% different. 

You apply an interestingly biased logic ????

[CharlieH]

Flame post and response removed

[Wonderboy]

9 hours ago, stevenl said:

Sure, that's why they imposed a lockdown on 28 January.

You mean the lockdown that let not a single person leave Wuhan. Not a single one, except international flights going to the rest of the world...

[rabas]

13 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

9 hours ago, stevenl said:

Sure, that's why they imposed a lockdown on 28 January.

You mean the lockdown that let not a single person leave Wuhan. Not a single one, except international flights going to the rest of the world...

... and the estimated 5 million who left just before the lock down carrying a tamer subtype-S virus to the rest of China. Leaving Wuhan to be later hit with an aggressive subtype-L. 

[seajae]

10 hours ago, garrya said:

Oh my. Nobody has ever reported a Covid finding in bats, nor in any other animals in China.

Bats have been known to harbour the most viruses, including coronaviruses. However, the Covid is YET to be found in these creatures. And the first known finding of Covid was in a Canadian lab where they experimented with this and many other viruses and  where the Chinese most likely stole it from. Google is gonna tell you this. 

Show me a link that clearly says based on scientific evidence that COVID-19 with zero difference in RNA is found in bats or pangolins or dinosaurs, please. 

If you do, I'll apologize and stop commenting on TV.

 

By the way, did you know the common cold is often caused by coronaviruses? Probably not, because BBC and CNN won't tell  you. It wouldn't shift the blame from China.

mate, I am aussie, dont listen/read the <deleted> from the US news, you keep asking everyone else to do all the work for you, suggest you do it yourself  as the reports were all around several weeks ago and I or others  would also have to reseach to find it again. You come across as more of a troll than anything else looking to get a bite from people but most realize you are an idiot that is simply stirring the pot with you uneducated garbage responses. Maybe get off your lazy butt and have a look, the only thing I have ready access to now is the video of the chinese police when they were shooting the people with machine guns at the start of the chinese lock down, something else you probably deny happened, some peoploe are just too stupid/brain dead to really comment in here

Edited April 12, 2020 by seajae

[yuyiinthesky]

Bats -> Pangolins -> humans.

 

Quote

A group of researchers believes the deadly coronavirus that originated in Wuhan, China, may have  passed from bats to humans through an intermediary animal, the pangolin.

Quote

So far, they know the virus is zoonotic, meaning it jumps from animals to people. And genetic research has all but confirmed that it originated in bats. But scientists believe that another animal most likely served as the intermediary between bats and humans.

 

That animal could be the pangolin, a scaly, nocturnal mammal with a tongue longer than its body.

 

A group of researchers from South China Agricultural University found that samples from coronavirus patients were 99% identical to samples of the virus taken from wild pangolins, according to China’s official Xinhua news agency. Their research hasn’t been published or confirmed by other experts, but scientists say the results make sense, given what we know about the animals.

 

Pangolins are often poached for their keratin scales, which are used as ingredients in traditional Chinese medicine. Their meat is also considered a delicacy in China and Vietnam.

Many sources, here just one of them: https://www.businessinsider.sg/what-is-a-pangolin-animal-spread-coronavirus-to-humans-2020-2

 

So yes, origin is bats, but no need to eat bats, but to eat or be in contact with infected pangolins.

[ukrules]

45 minutes ago, seajae said:

video of the chinese police when they were shooting the people with machine guns at the start of the chinese lock down

I'd like to see that, please post a link to it here

[Mulambana]

20 hours ago, Canuck1966 said:

Because they lied about the number of deaths and coerced WHO into their web of deceit

Reparations are due and maybe some kind of international trial for mass manslaughter

How do you know they lied about numbers? How do you know other countries are not lying about numbers? How do you know they coerced WHO? Don't post useless propaganda articles for your confirmation bias. I'm not defending China. How could China coerce WHO. If there are proofs, then China should be expelled from WHO. Why it is not happening? What happened is the utter incompetancies of leaders and arrogancies of their people that caused this pandemic. West never beleived that a pandemic can occur in their lands. Pandemic is supposed to happen only in Africa and poor Asian countries like India. Who I don't see praise for Asian countries like Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Singapore that have successfully managed it with the same information the Western countries had?

[jesimps]

Well said Liverpoolfan. I also read that the disgusting "wet markets" are still going strong in Wuhan, the epicenter of the virus. The Chinese will eat anything if they think it'll put lead in their pencil. You only have to observe their tourists to realise what sort of people they are.

[WineOh]

5 minutes ago, jesimps said:

Well said Liverpoolfan. I also read that the disgusting "wet markets" are still going strong in Wuhan, the epicenter of the virus. The Chinese will eat anything if they think it'll put lead in their pencil. You only have to observe their tourists to realise what sort of people they are.

Too true mate.

Those wet markets will never cease to be, hence why will we constantly be battling outbreaks of a similar nature in future.

[goldenbrwn1]

Serpentza has an interesting video on this subject called ‘China fooled the world’ on utube. Can’t seem to to put the link on Thai visa though. 

got it . 

Edited April 13, 2020 by goldenbrwn1

[Aspaltso]

All I have to say in regards to the post is this. I don't think the world needs to worry too much about China becoming the "Economic Behemoth", and "Superpower" ready to take over the world that many were worried about. If they can't responsibly run their own country, how are they going to run the world? There's a lot of work that needs to be done in that country before they can "take things over".

[Chassa]

For a bit of historical insight read this.

 

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=229027

[dpcjsr]

I think we should start calling the virus the CCP virus or Chinese Communist Party virus. That takes the spotlight off of the Chinese people and puts it where it belongs. The CCP has caused misery for the entire world and should not be let off the hook for this one. A complete lack of leadership. Unacceptable from a world power. 

 

Trying to shift the blame is completely typical of the CCP.

[Surasak]

On 4/12/2020 at 9:51 AM, Liverpoolfan said:

So we shall be doomed to suffer the same fate time and time again due to this very reason.

It's so sad, Charlie.

Humanity will never progress if we never learn from our mistakes.

 

I think in this case, its not admitting to the mistake, and China will never admit it.

[placnx]

4 hours ago, Mulambana said:

How do you know they lied about numbers? How do you know other countries are not lying about numbers? How do you know they coerced WHO? Don't post useless propaganda articles for your confirmation bias. I'm not defending China. How could China coerce WHO. If there are proofs, then China should be expelled from WHO. Why it is not happening? What happened is the utter incompetancies of leaders and arrogancies of their people that caused this pandemic. West never beleived that a pandemic can occur in their lands. Pandemic is supposed to happen only in Africa and poor Asian countries like India. Who I don't see praise for Asian countries like Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Singapore that have successfully managed it with the same information the Western countries had?

Stated above: "How could China coerce WHO. If there are proofs, then China should be expelled from WHO." We would have to have serious reform at the UN before China could be expelled from any UN unit. It would be nice if Taiwan could participate in WHO, but no! China will not allow that.

2 hours ago, Aspaltso said:

All I have to say in regards to the post is this. I don't think the world needs to worry too much about China becoming the "Economic Behemoth", and "Superpower" ready to take over the world that many were worried about. If they can't responsibly run their own country, how are they going to run the world? There's a lot of work that needs to be done in that country before they can "take things over".

With the EU being unable to deal with its serious economic issues and the US turning inwards, China's Belt & Road "tomorrow the world" strategy will spread by default, just like the pandemic. 

 

1 hour ago, dpcjsr said:

I think we should start calling the virus the CCP virus or Chinese Communist Party virus. That takes the spotlight off of the Chinese people and puts it where it belongs. The CCP has caused misery for the entire world and should not be let off the hook for this one. A complete lack of leadership. Unacceptable from a world power. 

 

Trying to shift the blame is completely typical of the CCP.

Great idea! The world should insist on China having a genuine Cultural Revolution so they stop believing primeval superstition about the benefits of consuming wild animal in food and medicine. Perhaps they could even clean up their air and stop demolishing the virgin forests belonging to other peoples.

[Thingamabob]

On 4/12/2020 at 9:36 AM, Mulambana said:

Why they will compensate Wetern countries who are repsonsible for this panedmic due to incompetacies of their leaders and arrogancies of their people as they mostly suffer from Dunning-Kruger syndrome. What about South Korea, Taiwan, and to some extent Signapore and Japan who could contain it but no Western countries now want compensation for their leaders incompetancies and their people like Tom (truck driver), Dick (plumber), and Harry (brick layer)'s arrogancies as Tom, Dick and Harry keep on flaunting restrictions like wearing masks, avoid gatherings, going to condo swiming pool, not obeying social distancing, drinking beer in groups and on and on and on it went all night.

Utter drivel.

[ExpatOilWorker]

China's image world wide is getting worse by the day.

 

[stevenl]

16 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

You mean the lockdown that let not a single person leave Wuhan. Not a single one, except international flights going to the rest of the world...

Not true. 23 January 02.00 lockdown announced, 10.00 lockdown effectuated, no more flights left.

[GroveHillWanderer]

20 hours ago, garrya said:

But where is the "real" evidence mate?

You are so biased that you can't see the forest for the tree. Give me an evidence!

 

By the way, coronaviruses are responsible for a large percentage of common cold infections. Coronaviruses, but not exactly COVID-19. See links:

https://web.stanford.edu/group/virus/corona/colds.html

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2759815

 

There is not much difference in virus genomes. You have to understand that the word "evidence" has a meaning. Science cannot rely on "maybe" because it is "almost" the same.

The funny thing is that I am not with China, nor do I support them in any way. In fact, I dislike China as it is. I am simply a neutral person who reads beyond the headlines of mainstream b..ls..t. 

Please spend a couple of hours on this topic, read through articles, especially the ones that were written by independent scientists who are not paid by any government nor are funded by the big pharma. Then you will see a new world. 

Until then there is no point in arguing because you only see one side of the coin.

 

On another note, bats have been eaten for centuries, and these bats have come from the same caves, and locals have eaten them with no problems at all. Then this virus mutated in one single bat right in front of this geezer in his hot soup. Of course :-) Could be a new horror film: "The revenge of the dead bat!"

That Chinese high level virus lab was a mere 8 mile from the wet market, by the way. That was the lab that was headed by a leading virologist who actually studied SARS type viruses and visited the Canadian lab where they stored versions of this COVID. But here, there is no correlation ????  LOL

The evidence is right there in the scientific research papers, one of which I've already provided a link to. Did you read it? If so, which parts of it do you think are inaccurate? Also, there are numerous other papers and articles written by specialists in the field, all saying that SARS-Cov-2 most probably had its origin in bats.

 

Below are just some of the papers showing that the most likely origin of SARS-CoV-2 was in bats, with it probably transitioning through another animal species (possibly the pangolin) before infecting humans. As the Science Alert article puts it:

 

Quote

"Since January 2020, the current consensus among the scientific community is that SARS-CoV-2 originated in horseshoe bats; however, it's unlikely that bats directly gave the virus to humans based on what's known about transmission of earlier zoonotic coronaviruses.
Instead, scientists suspected that the bat coronavirus infected another animal, an "intermediate host," which subsequently transmitted the virus to humans."

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm

 

https://www.sciencealert.com/more-evidence-suggests-pangolins-may-have-passed-coronavirus-from-bats-to-humans

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

 

Your knowledge of viruses also seems somewhat lacking - all viruses are not nearly the same at the genome level. 96% is incredibly close when you're talking about two viruses in different species. For instance, even the various human coronaviruses are not as similar as you seem to think. SARS-CoV-2 shares about 79% of its genome with SARS and for MERS the figure is only about 50%. So a 96% similarity with a bat coronavirus indicates that SARS-CoV-2 is much more closely related to bat coronaviruses than to the other two well-known deadly human coronaviruses, SARS and MERS.

 

Both the paper I linked to in my earlier post and the one below, confirm the comparatively low percentage similarity between SARS, MERS and SARS-CoV-2 viruses.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1684118220300827
 

Edited April 13, 2020 by GroveHillWanderer

[ChouDoufu]

51 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Not true. 23 January 02.00 lockdown announced, 10.00 lockdown effectuated, no more flights left.

there were some flights out arranged by other countries thru private charter or military transport to repatriate their citizens.  unfortunately not all of them went thru quarantine at the other end.  some were simply temperature tested and released into general population.

[ChouDoufu]

6 hours ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

Serpentza has an interesting video on this subject called ‘China fooled the world’ on utube. Can’t seem to to put the link on Thai visa though. 

got it . 

 

he has quite a few really interesting videos, if what you desire is to have your beliefs validated.  he was a simple english teacher in china with a youtube channel, found he could make more money monetizing it by clickbaiting falun gong propaganda.  it works for him; he has a faithful following.

 

don't believe he's even been in china for about three years or so.  his latest video was filmed on location from a hotel room in mexico.

[varun]

I highly recommend that everybody watch this video - it is made by somebody having considerable knowledge and experience about Chinese culture.

Food for thought.

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by varun

[DUNROAMIN]

Blame game is a doubled edge sword, China will try to shift the blame to counter-act the truth that this originated in China via their barbaric wet animal markets, which also includes Thailand, however, I believe when this ends people will have a different perspective of China and I think their economy is going to suffer. I believe many countries/governments are going to rethink how to be more self sufficient rather than rely on China for everything. Being an Ozie, I have watched China over many years silently building their empire by taking over large companies, purchasing prime real-estate, farming land and even owning a port for shipping. We certainly don't need them as Tourists as they don't spend big money here, as like many other countries they visit, their tours are all pre-planned tours via tour groups/hotels, shops owned by Chinese, so at the end of the day the money goes back to China. They also have started to over whelm our Universities with students, mainly due to wealthy Chinese families, making it hard for the average Australian to enroll through the Hex scheme. Recently the Government has started to see what China was doing here in Oz trying to slowly gain control of our commodities and has now put some restraints into place.

To a certain degree we the consumer are to blame, insisting on cheaper products, however, in the long run we have become to dependent on China for so many goods, and if this trend continues we will become their lapdogs.

China does not plan 10 years into the future, they plan 100 years into the future as they know they cannot keep growing in population without external resources to feed and support their people, and what better way to do it than by taking control of other countries resources.

For me, I will be looking harder at what I buy from now on, checking to see where it's made.

I think it's time to say "NO TO CHINA".

My say, take it or leave it.

 

[runamok27]

On 4/12/2020 at 10:25 AM, stevenl said:

"Because they lied about the number of deaths "

Did they?

"coerced WHO into their web of deceit"

Did they?

"Reparations are due and maybe some kind of international trial for mass manslaughter"

Also want to go after Trump, Johnson and quite a few others for inaction when it was clear on all fronts there was more to it than just a flu?

 

"Because they lied about the number of deaths "

Did they? Yes they did. Even the people in Wuhan say the government is lying about the number of deaths. 

"coerced WHO into their web of deceit"

Did they? Difficult to prove but the WHO was parroting the China propaganda and downplayed the virus for quite some time. They even went as far as denouncing the travel bans.

"Reparations are due and maybe some kind of international trial for mass manslaughter"

Also want to go after Trump, Johnson and quite a few others for inaction when it was clear on all fronts there was more to it than just a flu? Perhaps the response would have been stronger had the first 2 above not happened. China and the WHO were way late in reporting on the truth that was happening in China. Other countries were reacting with travel bans way before the WHO or China admitted there was cause to be concerned.

 

It's kind of like having a pet rattlesnake that gets out and telling people your snake got out without telling them it is a rattlesnake and blaming other people for getting bitten by your snake. 

[stevenl]

Very good interview with Israel's Harari, amongst others on why we should come together now.

 

 

[chessman]

I think it would be an interesting first step for the Western democracies to start pushing for Taiwan to be admitted to international organisations. The WHO for starters, at the Olympics under their own flag with their correct name.

 

how do you think China would react?

[LEZZA]

If China had been open and honest about the virus rather than hiding the truth and destroying samples things would have been a lot different I think 

The WHO have a lot to answer for as well 

The Chinese knew about this back in November they dragged the chain .... They got rid off some whistleblowers ... doctors 

They really need to take a long hard look at themselves ... it won't  happen because they don't care ... They won't take ownership of the crisis they have caused 

[albertik]

7 hours ago, Surasak said:

I think in this case, its not admitting to the mistake, and China will never admit it.

They won't admit it because     It wasn't a mistake.