LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Boomer6969 said:

Still wondering why Immigration (not BOI) require that. My first reaction, early October, was that I was an exception with my Thai Wife extensions. But now them seem to make it a rule. So, any ideas?

The notification that khunjeff got is really a generic notification written to cover as many variations/possibilities as possible; it's not like each approval type notification is specifically written just for that one applicant's situation.   Generic notifications that try to cover all possible situation can sometimes cause confusion like wondering if this or that applies in your situation.

 

In the case of folks switching from a marriage visa/extension of stay to an LTR "or" doing an annual renewal of a 1 year marriage extension of stay,  it's just an immigration requirement; not a BOI requirement. 

 

Like for people switching from say a 1 year retirement extension of stay to a 1 year marriage extension of stay they need to provide marriage related docs (i.e., marriage certificate (Kor Ror 3) that you get when first getting married.....marriage registration (Kor Ror 2) issued within last 30 days that you can easily/quickly get at any district office.....and a copy of Thai wife's Thai ID.   And when doing an annual renewal above docs need to provided again to include the fresh Kor Ror 2.  Now for folks who married a Thai in another country they need to get that foreign marriage registered in the Thai marriage data system and instead of getting a Kor Ror 2 they get a Kor Ror 22....but both the Kor Ror 2 and Kor Ror 22 are basically the same thing....one when you got married in Thailand to a Thai and one for you got married outside of Thailand to a Thai. 

 

And if you are not even married or divorced you will not have any marriage related docs.  

 

So, if you are not switching from a marriage visa/extension of stay above mentioned docs are not required/not applicable for issue of the LTR.   It only applies to those switching from a marriage visa/extension of stay to an LTR.

 

[ThailandRyan]

1 hour ago, Boomer6969 said:

Still wondering why Immigration (not BOI) require that. My first reaction, early October, was that I was an exception with my Thai Wife extensions. But now them seem to make it a rule. So, any ideas?

That's a good question, but then for a follow on addition for a non Thai family member I can see why they would ask. Like in my situation.

[Boomer6969]

2 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

That's a good question, but then for a follow on addition for a non Thai family member I can see why they would ask. Like in my situation.

Yes, but in my case it is totally unnecessary, as my new visa is a retirement visa, and obviously my [Thai] family doesn't need one. The only reason I could imagine was that Immigration wanted to make a show of power and came up with something that's plainly stupid. Possibly they resent the effective business like attitude of BOI, and try to show them how a good old obsolete bureaucracy should work. 

[Boomer6969]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

So, if you are not switching from a marriage visa/extension of stay above mentioned docs are not required/not applicable for issue of the LTR.   It only applies to those switching from a marriage visa/extension of stay to an LTR.

 

The point is that marital situation is irrelevant to issuance of a retirement visa wile, as pointed out by @ThailandRyan, it is to the issuance of a visa to the spouse/dependent of a retirement visa holder.

[Pib]

9 minutes ago, Boomer6969 said:

The point is that marital situation is irrelevant to issuance of a retirement visa wile, as pointed out by @ThailandRyan, it is to the issuance of a visa to the spouse/dependent of a retirement visa holder.

Your marital situation (with a Thai) is relevant if switching from a marriage visa/extension of stay to another type of visa like say a 1 year retirement Non O Visa or LTR visa. 

 

It is  relevant because "if you are on a marriage visa/extension" which is only granted to those who are married to a Thai that visa/extension in only valid while you still have a living Thai spouse.   That's the main rule--you gotta still be married to the Thai.   If you were to divorce anytime after getting that marriage visa/extension that visa's validity is immediately forfeited even if you just got it last week....and you must immediately leave the country (typically within 7 days) unless you immediately get another type of visa/extension allowed for your new status as no longer being married.   

 

And unfortunately over the years many farangs have divorced from their Thai spouses while on the marriage extension but did not immediately report their status change to immigration....instead waiting until the marriage extension almost expired and then applied for another extension base on something like retirement.  But immigration is not receptive to switching when you failed to live up to the requirements of your marriage extension.  

 

When wanting to switch from marriage visa/extension to some other type of visa immigration wants to ensure you lived up to the conditions of the marriage visa you were on; otherwise, they will not approve you for another type visa without you leaving Thailand and getting another visa.   

 

It kinda similar but more strict than those who say was on a retirement extension but failed to maintain the required income levels while on that extension and when it comes time to renew that retirement extension immigration first wants to see a bank passbook/12 month statement showing you met the income requirements over the past 12 months.  If you failed to to meet those requirement I'm not aware of any rule that says your retirement extension is immediately void but immigration will denied another retirement extension come extension renewal time.  Tell you got to start over by leaving Thailand and getting another visa....or leave Thailand, come back in on a Exempt and then apply for a Non-O within Thailand.

 

Now I know you may say that immigration does not ask for a bank passbook/12 month bank statement if switching from says a Non O/OA retirement extension to a LTR visa,  but a marriage extension simply has different rules compared to a Non O/OA marriage extension to include the rule that the marriage extension validity ends upon divorce where that rule does not apply to a retirement extension.

 

[Pib]

I see overnight they upgraded the LTR online account website. 

 

Like the addition of some menus on the far left such as resetting your password for digital work permit and a Signature capability  Also there is now a graphic showing the new "statuses" a person see in their online account as their application progresses through the system.   

 

These new statuses actually went into effect around two weeks ago...it's just below graphics is new to help explain what they are and what they mean.   And actually there is another status not shown below which would be like Step 7.5 where your status would change to Approved....and then once making an appointment to have the LTR actually put in your passport at BOI immigration the status would change to Appointment.  Please note that starting at Step 6 through 8 those only apply when in your application you said you want the visa issued "within Thailand."   I guess if you choose to have it issued outside of Thailand at an embassy then the final statuses will be somewhat different.

 

[ThailandRyan]

So my screen still shows Step 7, with Return, Pre-Approved.  I wonder what that really means since I have already obtained my Visa and the screen should show step 8.  Looks like they have not fixed my glitch on my app like they said they would.  Guess I will call on Tuesday, since I now live pretty much full time in PKK.

[Pib]

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

So my screen still shows Step 7, with Return, Pre-Approved.  I wonder what that really means since I have already obtained my Visa and the screen should show step 8.  Looks like they have not fixed my glitch on my app like they said they would.  Guess I will call on Tuesday, since I now live pretty much full time in PKK.

Yea....I'll guess that since your application completed all of it's processing before they implemented the new statuses that your record is simply not being updated anymore....kinda like it has been frozen for further updates...a locked record...an archived record...etc.   

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Your marital situation (with a Thai) is relevant if switching from a marriage visa/extension of stay to another type of visa like say a 1 year retirement Non O Visa or LTR visa. 

 

It is  relevant because "if you are on a marriage visa/extension" which is only granted to those who are married to a Thai that visa/extension in only valid while you still have a living Thai spouse.   That's the main rule--you gotta still be married to the Thai.   If you were to divorce anytime after getting that marriage visa/extension that visa's validity is immediately forfeited even if you just got it last week....and you must immediately leave the country (typically within 7 days) unless you immediately get another type of visa/extension allowed for your new status as no longer being married.   

 

And unfortunately over the years many farangs have divorced from their Thai spouses while on the marriage extension but did not immediately report their status change to immigration....instead waiting until the marriage extension almost expired and then applied for another extension base on something like retirement.  But immigration is not receptive to switching when you failed to live up to the requirements of your marriage extension.  

 

When wanting to switch from marriage visa/extension to some other type of visa immigration wants to ensure you lived up to the conditions of the marriage visa you were on; otherwise, they will not approve you for another type visa without you leaving Thailand and getting another visa.   

 

It kinda similar but more strict than those who say was on a retirement extension but failed to maintain the required income levels while on that extension and when it comes time to renew that retirement extension immigration first wants to see a bank passbook/12 month statement showing you met the income requirements over the past 12 months.  If you failed to to meet those requirement I'm not aware of any rule that says your retirement extension is immediately void but immigration will denied another retirement extension come extension renewal time.  Tell you got to start over by leaving Thailand and getting another visa....or leave Thailand, come back in on a Exempt and then apply for a Non-O within Thailand.

 

Now I know you may say that immigration does not ask for a bank passbook/12 month bank statement if switching from says a Non O/OA retirement extension to a LTR visa,  but a marriage extension simply has different rules compared to a Non O/OA marriage extension to include the rule that the marriage extension validity ends upon divorce where that rule does not apply to a retirement extension.

 

Whoops...significant typo in last paragraph above....corrected below.

 

Now I know you may say that immigration does not ask for a bank passbook/12 month bank statement if switching from says a Non O/OA retirement extension to a LTR visa,  but a marriage extension simply has different rules compared to a Non O/OA marriage retirement extension to include the rule that the marriage extension validity ends upon divorce where that rule does not apply to a retirement extension.

[ThailandRyan]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

Yea....I'll guess that since your application completed all of it's processing before they implemented the new statuses that your record is simply not being updated anymore....kinda like it has been frozen for further updates...a locked record...an archived record...etc.   

Makes sense, yet they still want me to add the Work Permit information it appears.  Such a cluster.

 

 

[aublumberg]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Also there is now a graphic showing the new "statuses" a person see in their online account as their application progresses through the system.   

Very helpful chart, thanks for sharing. So when you are 'qualification approved' you're actually only half way through the full process in fact ????

This explains the relatively long duration from getting the 'approval' notice to the visa issuance. It also clarifies that the other government agencies come after 'approved' and are not part of that, hence 'qualification approved' only.

[K2938]

33 minutes ago, aublumberg said:

It also clarifies that the other government agencies come after 'approved' and are not part of that, hence 'qualification approved' only.

As far as I know other government agencies are involved in Step 3, like checking if you are an internationally wanted terrorist, have grossly violated immigration rules in Thailand in the past, are otherwise 'undesirable' etc.

[Pib]

5 minutes ago, aublumberg said:

Very helpful chart, thanks for sharing. So when you are 'qualification approved' you're actually only half way through the full process in fact ????

This explains the relatively long duration from getting the 'approval' notice to the visa issuance. It also clarifies that the other government agencies come after 'approved' and are not part of that, hence 'qualification approved' only.

When a person gets to the "qualification approved" status that mean the "BoI" has determined you meet the BoI requirements like income, insurance, etc.  You are now pretty much home free.

 

Step 5 thru 8 will now consist of dotting the i's & crossing the t's where the BoI builds/coordinates the final package with  Immigration and/or Dept of Employment.  These steps move pretty fast.   Like immigration looking at the initial package again and sees you appear to be overdue your 90 day address report according to the immigration 90 day address report system and then immigration kicks the package back to BoI saying such and then BoI contacts the applicant identify the problems....ask you to send them your latest 90 day address report receipt or go do the report if you are indeed overdue and then provide the receipt back to BoI.  Then BoI sends the package back to immigration....this makes immigration happy and immigration gives it final coordination to continue on with final approval.   

 

And if, repeat, if the person currently on a marriage visa/extension, immigration will also request that BoI remind the approved applicant to be sure to bring along earlier talked marriage paperwork on his appointment date to get the visa put in his passport.

 

Yea, the statuses 5-8 are most dotting I's, crossing t's, wrapping the present in a box with a bow, the final administrative steps needed.   Mostly stuff to fully satisfy immigration and/or if also getting a work permit satisfying the dept of employment.

 

   

[Pib]

3 minutes ago, K2938 said:

As far as I know other government agencies are involved in Step 3, like checking if you are an internationally wanted terrorist, have violated immigration rules in Thailand in the past, are otherwise 'undesirable' etc.

Yeap, that's their initial look/coordination on an application.  But some of those "other govt agencies" (like immigration) also get another look/coordination after BoI proves a "qualification approval."   

 

On the tail-end of the process Boi will do some more quick coordination with Immigration and/or Dept of Employment to dot the i's & cross the t's.....make sure any other minor paperwork might not "now" be required since it may have taken months for your application to reach it current location in the coordination/review process.  

 

Example: Although you do not need to submit your latest 90 days address report in your initial application it might get asked for later "if" immigration asks for it during immigration final/2nd coordination if their system mistakenly shows you are overdue.  Now, the person may not actually be overdue...it's just the immigration system mistakenly indicates so.  The person did indeed do the report or hasn't had to do a report for many months since they have been exiting and reentering Thailand on trips which resets the 90 day address clock that in-turn negates/delays the need to do an actual TM47 90 day address report online/by mail/in person.   But this is an example of one issue that needs to be resolved before immigration will provide its 2nd coordination around the Steps 5 & 6 ballpark. 

[khunjeff]

7 hours ago, Pib said:

I see overnight they upgraded the LTR online account website. 

 

Like the addition of some menus on the far left such as resetting your password for digital work permit and a Signature capability  Also there is now a graphic showing the new "statuses" a person see in their online account as their application progresses through the system.   

 

These new statuses actually went into effect around two weeks ago...it's just below graphics is new to help explain what they are and what they mean.   And actually there is another status not shown below which would be like Step 7.5 where your status would change to Approved....and then once making an appointment to have the LTR actually put in your passport at BOI immigration the status would change to Appointment.  Please note that starting at Step 6 through 8 those only apply when in your application you said you want the visa issued "within Thailand."   I guess if you choose to have it issued outside of Thailand at an embassy then the final statuses will be somewhat different.

 

I see in step 3 that they're still maintaining the fiction that decisions are made within 20 working days. In my case, and most others that I've read about on this forum, they didn't even look at the case within that time period, let alone make a decision.

 

They can of course take as long as they want to examine each case (and we can argue over whether that time period is reasonable or not), but I would really just like to see them give a more honest estimate of the time required so that applicants don't freak out when their cases take months to be completed. Managing expectations is important. 

[K2938]

1 hour ago, khunjeff said:

I see in step 3 that they're still maintaining the fiction that decisions are made within 20 working days. In my case, and most others that I've read about on this forum, they didn't even look at the case within that time period, let alone make a decision.

 

They can of course take as long as they want to examine each case (and we can argue over whether that time period is reasonable or not), but I would really just like to see them give a more honest estimate of the time required so that applicants don't freak out when their cases take months to be completed. Managing expectations is important. 

Indeed!  The application process is really a big disappointment and the number of people who are saying that if they had known up front how all this would really work out in practice, they would not have bothered to apply appears to be growing.  Adding this to the fact that the number of applicants is already hugely below the official goal, does not really bode too well for the future.  And with the virtually endless and unpredictable delays it is just very easy as an applicant to reach a mental state where one does not really care much about the outcome any longer and rather starts work on a plan B.   It seems that a lot of goodwill which such a program could generate is wasted.

From a recent reddit post I read.  People appear to get increasingly frustrated:

 

[lexxy]

I applied on the 3rd november, i did not contact them at any stage. Last week i was asked for insurance and was approved last night.. Its legit amazing that this visa even exists and the more we call, the longer the entire process takes. In western world youd never be able to have access to the actual people doing the work only call centre staff (like when you want to check your tax return) so arent we just creating our own devil here?

 

Chill out and merry christmas everyone

[Boomer6969]

18 hours ago, Pib said:

Your marital situation (with a Thai) is relevant if switching from a marriage visa/extension of stay to another type of visa like say a 1 year retirement Non O Visa or LTR visa. 

 

It is  relevant because "if you are on a marriage visa/extension" which is only granted to those who are married to a Thai that visa/extension in only valid while you still have a living Thai spouse.   That's the main rule--you gotta still be married to the Thai.   If you were to divorce anytime after getting that marriage visa/extension that visa's validity is immediately forfeited even if you just got it last week....and you must immediately leave the country (typically within 7 days) unless you immediately get another type of visa/extension allowed for your new status as no longer being married.   

 

And unfortunately over the years many farangs have divorced from their Thai spouses while on the marriage extension but did not immediately report their status change to immigration....instead waiting until the marriage extension almost expired and then applied for another extension base on something like retirement.  But immigration is not receptive to switching when you failed to live up to the requirements of your marriage extension.  

 

When wanting to switch from marriage visa/extension to some other type of visa immigration wants to ensure you lived up to the conditions of the marriage visa you were on; otherwise, they will not approve you for another type visa without you leaving Thailand and getting another visa.   

 

It kinda similar but more strict than those who say was on a retirement extension but failed to maintain the required income levels while on that extension and when it comes time to renew that retirement extension immigration first wants to see a bank passbook/12 month statement showing you met the income requirements over the past 12 months.  If you failed to to meet those requirement I'm not aware of any rule that says your retirement extension is immediately void but immigration will denied another retirement extension come extension renewal time.  Tell you got to start over by leaving Thailand and getting another visa....or leave Thailand, come back in on a Exempt and then apply for a Non-O within Thailand.

 

Now I know you may say that immigration does not ask for a bank passbook/12 month bank statement if switching from says a Non O/OA retirement extension to a LTR visa,  but a marriage extension simply has different rules compared to a Non O/OA marriage extension to include the rule that the marriage extension validity ends upon divorce where that rule does not apply to a retirement extension.

 

Thanks, no one could have written a better description of what anal bureaucracy is. My point is that it might have been deliberate to make BOI and its customers a bit more miserable.

 

Frankly, how many people are they going to catch?

[Misty]

An update on the digital work permit process:

 

I had applied for the LTR visa & Digital work permit on 2 Sep.  Although I was able to receive the LTR e-visa in October, the digital work permit issuance was delayed due to IT problems. The BoI reported that IT problems were resolved a week or two ago and my digital work permit application could then move forward. 

 

Completing the application progress then took an in person visit to the BoI, and a number of phone calls (mostly the BoI calling me). But the work permit application was eventually finalized last week.  Receiving the digital work permit required making an appointment for another in person visit to the BoI. After final approval, the final BoI appointment took a little over an hour to get the digital work permit issued. 

 

There are a couple of things for work permit applicants to be aware of:   in the case of a 5 year work permit, you pay Bt3000 x 5 years at once. Credit cards and ATM debit cards are accepted, but still no cash.  Although you're required to submit a photo as part of the online application, another photo will still be taken at the One Stock Service for the actual work permit.

 

After payment & photo, there was some confusion about receiving the actual work permit - apparently if you use Apple devices you can download use a QR code and download an app.  I had no way to do this.  So at my request, the BoI provided a paper print out of a copy of the digital work permit which included a QR code.  That QR code takes anyone to the online location of the digital work permit.

 

Overall, the BoI staff were really helpful and professional, despite all the IT glitches encountered that required almost step by step intervention.  Without going into detail, One Stop Service was less ideal.  I am grateful for the BoI's help in getting the job done.

 

 

[anotherexpat4444]

Thank to this fantastic community .  I came thailand last night with LTR visa .  they took the letter and put a stamp ( which seems same like any other with manually writing 5 year eligibility)  on my passport .  I guess for me the first episode of this LTR is done . 

 

while starting my LTR life  how do we get an regular bank account . do we go with this letter to the bank ?

[ThailandRyan]

9 minutes ago, anotherexpat4444 said:

Thank to this fantastic community .  I came thailand last night with LTR visa .  they took the letter and put a stamp ( which seems same like any other with manually writing 5 year eligibility)  on my passport .  I guess for me the first episode of this LTR is done . 

 

while starting my LTR life  how do we get an regular bank account . do we go with this letter to the bank ?

The Letter, your passport which shows the Visa, and your cash.  Just ensure you have the info explaining the LTR visa if asked.  I just changed my address and closed my Fixed deposit account with K-bank and transferred the money to my other K-vank account t. All they wanted was my PP and my new houses Blue book.  If you have a lease, take a copy with you for the address information. 

[lexxy]

Can some one explain what the digital work permit is for?

I have LTR-T for remote worker and i didnt check the digital work permit.. Could have i? Does it allow you to work actually in thailand for a company there?

[aublumberg]

14 minutes ago, lextsy said:

Can some one explain what the digital work permit is for?

I have LTR-T for remote worker and i didnt check the digital work permit.. 

Not applicable to LTR-T

[anotherexpat4444]

3 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

The Letter, your passport which shows the Visa, and your cash.  Just ensure you have the info explaining the LTR visa if asked.  I just changed my address and closed my Fixed deposit account with K-bank and transferred the money to my other K-vank account t. All they wanted was my PP and my new houses Blue book.  If you have a lease, take a copy with you for the address information. 

I am seeing  many of the expat preferred K-bank instead of Bangkok Bank  .  Any reason 

[ThailandRyan]

30 minutes ago, anotherexpat4444 said:

I am seeing  many of the expat preferred K-bank instead of Bangkok Bank  .  Any reason 

No Idea really.  I had an SCB account when I first arrived in Thailand 20 years ago. Kept it until 4 years ago and because of issues I was having with the banks app for both phone and computer I switched. The K-Bank phone app is fantastic and I use it for paying bills, topping up my True Money account, etc...I also use it to take out money from the ATM as no card is needed. Just my preference.

[lexxy]

Only 1 thing about KBANK ATMs. Theres barely any in Pattaya, seems the yellow ones are outside every 711 / mini stop if you like to do cardless cash thats my only drawback after 8 years with KBANK.

[mudcat]

4 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

The Letter, your passport which shows the Visa, and your cash.  Just ensure you have the info explaining the LTR visa if asked.  I just changed my address and closed my Fixed deposit account with K-bank and transferred the money to my other K-vank account t. All they wanted was my PP and my new houses Blue book.  If you have a lease, take a copy with you for the address information. 

I also closed my term account (mine at BBK).  I had always described the ThB800K for my non-imm O (retirement) as a parked car without any keys, so when I got the stack of bills I turned it into a new car (Toyota Veloz). 

 

Anyone want a good but inexpensive family car?  2014 Chevrolet Spin with 80K km - very clean with all service records - it will get your family out of the back of the pickup into air conditioned comfort with 6 shoulder belts and one lap belt at the bargain price of ThB200K including 9-months of first class insurance.  If interested PM me.

[ThailandRyan]

12 minutes ago, mudcat said:

I also closed my term account (mine at BBK).  I had always described the ThB800K for my non-imm O (retirement) as a parked car without any keys, so when I got the stack of bills I turned it into a new car (Toyota Veloz). 

 

Anyone want a good but inexpensive family car?  2014 Chevrolet Spin with 80K km - very clean with all service records - it will get your family out of the back of the pickup into air conditioned comfort with 6 shoulder belts and one lap belt at the bargain price of ThB200K including 9-months of first class insurance.  If interested PM me.

I put mine back into my Amex HY Savings account making 4%...... I will make over 30k thb a year instead of 3k Thb by moving it.

 

A car was also a good investment. However, I have my vehicles, house and a condo, so I am good now.

[Pib]

Merry Christmas to me as my LTR Pensioner application submitted 25 Oct was approved 23 Dec/Friday.  I ended up self-insuring as they didn't accept my U.S. military  insurance (Tricare) most likely due to it not having an end date like a typical  1 year policy.  Tricare is an open-ended worldwide coverage policy...no need to renew each year.....as long as you are alive and paying the monthly premium the insurance stays in force.   So I self insured instead.   

 

Upon the 23 Dec I immediately made an appointment for 26 Dec/Monday/today to get the LTR visa put in my passport which occurred.  I'm now back home with an LTR-P 10 year Visa stamp, a 5 year initial entry period stamp, a multiple entry stamp, and a little slip of paper saying my next address reporting is due 25 Dec 2023.   During these final steps at BoI today, the BoI rep who hand-walked me thru the final steps at the BoI One Stop Center and Immigration across the hall was superb.  Made me feel like a HiSo VIP.  

 

It feels so, so good to have this 10 year (5+5) visa....no annual renewal (just the renewal at the 5 year mid point which is fee-free), no 90 day address reporting but only 1 year address reporting, etc.   Makes me feel more at home in Thailand.

[Pib]

 

Update:   Known LTR Approvals as of 26 Dec 2022 based on posts in this thread I saw.  Added "Pib" (i.e., me) who got his approved 23 Dec....an early Christmas gift from the BoI (and Santa).   See his post above for more details. 

 

Poster & Date Approval Notice Rec'd

1.   BKKNono  -  15 Sep

2.  ashkale  - 28 Sep

3.  ThailandRyan  - 28 Sep

4.  pepper402  - 29 Sep

5.  gajah  - 30 Sep

6.  Alotoftravel  - 4 Oct

7.  James7  - 4 Oct 

8. & 9.  Misty (and family member)  - 4 Oct

10.  mudcat  - 4 Oct

11. & 12.  stuarty (and wife) - 4 Oct

13.  Boomer6969  - 5 Oct

14.  aublumberg - 12 Oct

15.  JJJJJJJJ  -  8 Nov

16.  smic - 28 Nov

17.  Paul3456 - 30 Nov

18.  anotherexpat4444 - 7 Dec

19.   lextsy - 21 Dec 

20.  Pib - 23 Dec