Judge orders Trump and companies to pay nearly $355 million in civil fraud trial

[Walker88]

12 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

Have you ever owned property.  I can tellyou from experience that when you buy propetrty and are using a different property as collateral there is almost always a difference between what you think and the bank does.  

 

Also, no one holds a gun to the bank's head.  The bank looks at what is provided and balances that with whether they want to agree and or do business with a person.

 

 

As others have stated this is going to cause almost all commercial property owners to get the hell out of NY state.  

 

They all do it.  THe banks all do it.

 

I am willing to guarantee that a lot of business is going to leave NY state and that this is gong to go to the supreme court.

 

This is a Dem gtovernor and DEM AG that wanted to make a name for themselves with a DEM judge.

Hell the judge under valued the properties that he owns

 

Very spurious example.

 

There is a rather significant difference between applying for a loan or insuring a small, single family home vs taking loans or insuring major commercial buildings, golf courses and 40+ story condos.

 

Banks must rely on what loan applicants submit to a certain extent; otherwise, why even bother with an application? Just tell the bank "I want $500 million, please."

 

If you or any other trumper actually read the court transcripts and the 92-page judge's ruling, you would see trump's fraud is on an unprecedented scale. One example: trump and his 2nd son signed off, attesting to the veracity, of a large mansion in NY State where they valued it at $14 million, and shortly thereafter valued the exact same property at $161 million. They also tried to claim development value, when zoning prohibited any other use. That is fraud, nothing less.

 

As I wrote to another poster, go ahead and find another NYC RE guy who fudged even 10% as badly as trump.

 

Oh, and I'll accept your guarantee that because of this ruling "a lot of business is going to leave NY State".

 

As for the Supreme Court, no. This is a State matter, not a Federal matter. Any appeal is to NY State courts.

[GroveHillWanderer]

29 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

Have you ever owned property.  I can tellyou from experience that when you buy propetrty and are using a different property as collateral there is almost always a difference between what you think and the bank does.

Oh, come on. What Trump was doing here goes way beyond "a difference between what you think and the bank does."

 

Just for an example, on one declaration he claimed that his apartment in Trump Tower was 33,000 square feet when it's actually only a third of that size.

 

That's not a difference of opinion, it's just downright lying (and therefore, fraud).

 

His attempted and totally ridiculous explanation for this? That his valuer "didn't take out elevator shafts and other non-usable square footage." I'd like to see an apartment where lift shafts and the like constitute two thirds of the total area!

 

Trump fraud trial testimony: what we learned so far

 

And that was only one of the excuses he tried. Another one - that square footage is subjective.

 

Trump lawyers ‘absurdly’ argued that figuring out square footage is ‘subjective’

Edited February 17 by GroveHillWanderer

[Lacessit]

18 minutes ago, theshu25 said:

I was kind of hoping the orange scumbag conman and his brat kids would all get some well deserved jail time.

It was a civil case, criminal penalties don't apply.

 

What with all the cases, and appeals, the cash drain to pay lawyers must be gargantuan by now. Remember the legal eagles are all demanding payment in advance.

Only a desperate or incompetent lawyer would work for Trump in arrears.

 

Be patient, the best is yet to come.

[kingstonkid]

7 minutes ago, Tug said:

I own several property’s I payed them off then reaped the reward it adds added income to my pension and socalsecurty donney got his free from da da then squandered them.trump is finally starting to reap the reward for being such a fraud he did what he did he is what he is

You really need to look at things and history. There is a huge difference between someone who got money from their dad and blew it and someone who got a little money from his dad and then built a huge property network and holding throughout the world.

 

TRUMP did everything IAW to the practices at the time.  No one held a gun to the bank's head to lend him the money.  The banks looked at the name ont he paper and the fact that they wanted to be a part of what he was doing.  Could they have argued and lowered the appraisals yes. 

 

The fallout is going to be huge in the U.S.  Everyone now will be libel for some government person to look at what they did Legally 10 years ago and say nope.  We are going to sue you because you made money.

 

Do you really think that Amazon and Microsoft did everything completely by the book?  There is no chance they took legal shortcuts. 

 

But now Bezos AND ALL THE PROPERTY DEVELOPERS IN NY state will be looking at who is next.  

 

Just imagine if California realizes that they can do this and make back the money that will help with their budget.

 

Although it is TRUMP that they did this to there really is nothing to stop them from hitting any large developer.

 

 

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

NYMAG has a good article about just how crappy a lot of his assets are. When he liquidates to pay, he will def take a bath.

Trump's golf courses have been bleeding red ink for years. It's been made worse by the PGA refusing to schedule any of their events on his courses.

 

Trump National in California reportedly cost $264 million to build, due to some landslides. He valued it at $10 million when it came to property tax assessment.

 

Seems he is a business genius, at making a small fortune from a big one.

[helloagain]

4 hours ago, Tug said:

Trump is finally reaping what he has sown over the years he must be exhausted from all the winning 355 million on this one then 88 million for assaulting Jean Carrol I forgot how much he had to pay in his scam charity then there was his university scam that one ran about 20 million he’s approaching a half a billion dollars in fines now!and his criminal cases haven’t been tried yet yup he must be exhausted from all the winning!

They should jail him as well

[kingstonkid]

14 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Very spurious example.

 

There is a rather significant difference between applying for a loan or insuring a small, single family home vs taking loans or insuring major commercial buildings, golf courses and 40+ story condos.

 

Banks must rely on what loan applicants submit to a certain extent; otherwise, why even bother with an application? Just tell the bank "I want $500 million, please."

 

If you or any other trumper actually read the court transcripts and the 92-page judge's ruling, you would see trump's fraud is on an unprecedented scale. One example: trump and his 2nd son signed off, attesting to the veracity, of a large mansion in NY State where they valued it at $14 million, and shortly thereafter valued the exact same property at $161 million. They also tried to claim development value, when zoning prohibited any other use. That is fraud, nothing less.

 

As I wrote to another poster, go ahead and find another NYC RE guy who fudged even 10% as badly as trump.

 

Oh, and I'll accept your guarantee that because of this ruling "a lot of business is going to leave NY State".

 

As for the Supreme Court, no. This is a State matter, not a Federal matter. Any appeal is to NY State courts.

 

13 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Oh, come on. What Trump was doing here goes way beyond "a difference between what you think and the bank does."

 

Just for an example, on one declaration he claimed that his apartment in Trump Tower was 33,000 square feet when it's actually only a third of that size.

 

That's not a difference of opinion, it's just downright lying (and therefore, fraud).

 

His attempted and totally ridiculous explanation for this? That his valuer "didn't take out elevator shafts and other non-usable square footage." I'd like to see an apartment where lift shafts and the like constitute two thirds of the total area!

 

Trump fraud trial testimony: what we learned so far

 

And that was only one of the excuses he tried. Another one - that square footage is subjective.

 

Trump lawyers ‘absurdly’ argued that figuring out square footage is ‘subjective’

 

 

The only difference between buying houses and large land developers are the size of the loan, and the amount of checking that banks go through.

The banks do due diligence and are supposed to check the information.

 

Although it is not the same, look at the RE mortgage crash 2008.  That was caused by banks not doing their true diligence and making sure that people that got the mortgages could actually afford them.  It was also due to the banks not confirming the value of properties that 1 day were worth 100K and then 2 weeks later were valued at 200K.

 

The banking world has been doing this crap for as long as they have given loans.  Should they not be also responsible if they misvalue a loan?

 

How many Bank managers or people went to jail because they did not do their due diligence?    

 

TRUMP overvalued property, so what?  If you walk into the bank and tell them that your house is valued at 5 mills, is it going to believe you?  No, they are going to check it out.

 

[

[billd766]

2 hours ago, frank83628 said:

Putin puppet...yawn......  you just proved the type of person you are.

And so did you with your first post on this topic.

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

You really need to look at things and history. There is a huge difference between someone who got money from their dad and blew it and someone who got a little money from his dad and then built a huge property network and holding throughout the world.

 

TRUMP did everything IAW to the practices at the time.  No one held a gun to the bank's head to lend him the money.  The banks looked at the name ont he paper and the fact that they wanted to be a part of what he was doing.  Could they have argued and lowered the appraisals yes. 

 

The fallout is going to be huge in the U.S.  Everyone now will be libel for some government person to look at what they did Legally 10 years ago and say nope.  We are going to sue you because you made money.

 

Do you really think that Amazon and Microsoft did everything completely by the book?  There is no chance they took legal shortcuts. 

 

But now Bezos AND ALL THE PROPERTY DEVELOPERS IN NY state will be looking at who is next.  

 

Just imagine if California realizes that they can do this and make back the money that will help with their budget.

 

Although it is TRUMP that they did this to there really is nothing to stop them from hitting any large developer.

 

 

You are getting incoherent, as Trump does.

 

The correct spelling is "liable"

 

When you said "There is no chance they took legal shortcuts" I think you meant there is every chance they did.

 

Take a break, and come back with facts instead of bullsh!t opinions, OK?

 

 

[Paul Henry]

This investigation started before Biden was president. So how is it politically motavated and judges are picked by random ballot for each case thats why Cannon is sitting for the Document case. They are not picked for their party affiliation like the Supreme Court.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

The way I see it, I have a responsibility to help preserve the Republic and the old ways, by throwing my support toward the cause.

Just sent another donation to help out the  next POTUS!

Just doin my part to combat the

Bolshevik's in New York. 
 

imop

 

 

 

 

I will also send a donation to Trump just as soon as I can find change for a 25 satang coin and of course if Trump pays all the financial transfer charges. After all, every little helps.

Edited February 17 by billd766
corrected some bad spelling

[Walker88]

5 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

You really need to look at things and history. There is a huge difference between someone who got money from their dad and blew it and someone who got a little money from his dad and then built a huge property network and holding throughout the world.

 

TRUMP did everything IAW to the practices at the time.  No one held a gun to the bank's head to lend him the money.  The banks looked at the name ont he paper and the fact that they wanted to be a part of what he was doing.  Could they have argued and lowered the appraisals yes. 

 

The fallout is going to be huge in the U.S.  Everyone now will be libel for some government person to look at what they did Legally 10 years ago and say nope.  We are going to sue you because you made money.

 

Do you really think that Amazon and Microsoft did everything completely by the book?  There is no chance they took legal shortcuts. 

 

But now Bezos AND ALL THE PROPERTY DEVELOPERS IN NY state will be looking at who is next.  

 

Just imagine if California realizes that they can do this and make back the money that will help with their budget.

 

Although it is TRUMP that they did this to there really is nothing to stop them from hitting any large developer.

 

 

You really are not in touch with reality.

 

You can do some homework by Googling for NY State probate records, just to get started. trump inherited $412,000,000 from his father. That doesn't exactly qualify as a "self-made man".

 

According to his niece Mary, trump also began getting an allowance of $200,000 per month from dad from the time he was 3 years old until his dad died. That amounts to over $100,000,000.

 

Also, dad co-signed every loan trump got back when major banks still loaned him money.

 

You might also want to take a look at his NJ casino history. He both issued junk bonds and---after dad co-signed---got funding from a syndicate of 72 banks. The junk bonds and syndicate loan were not personally guaranteed, but were collateralized with the casino/hotel properties themselves.

 

At that same time trump had loans from NY banks that had a personal guarantee. He was having trouble servicing those loans, so he paid himself a massive salary from his NJ casinos, and then used that to service the personally-guaranteed NY loans. For one payment he could not meet, his dad walked into one of the NJ casinos and bought $3.4 million in chips, the money was then used to service the NY loans. Here's one of many sources stating the same thing:

 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/5/12/1525797/-1991-Trump-s-Dad-Buys-3-4-Million-in-Chips-From-His-Son-s-Casino-but-Never-Plays-a-Hand

 

trump eventually declared bankruptcy for his NJ casinos and hotels and defaulting on both the loans and the junk bonds. Oh, and he stiffed many of the subcontractors. Some creditors got 30 cents on the dollar, others nothing. Googling NJ courts will give you all the details on his disasters there.

 

Now we see even in his NY RE, he engaged in an unprecedented level of fraud.

 

Successful businessman trump is not. Without dad, donny might have been qualified to pour Slurpies at a 7-11 at a truckstop in Keokuk, Iowa, but little more.

[Bangkok Barry]

5 hours ago, frank83628 said:

is that a Dem voting Judge by any chance?

 

The verdict was based on documentary evidence, not the Party the judge votes for. Perhaps you don't know that.

[Bangkok Barry]

3 hours ago, nausea said:

This lawfare is destroying the legitimacy of the US legal system, a heavy price to pay for some petty, or maybe not so petty, political advantage. I mean, you sort of expect it in a country like Pakistan, with all their Imran Khan shenanigans, but the US?

 

Quite the opposite. The law is upheld in the face of clear documentary evidence against him. Nothing to do with politics. Surely you aren't one of those idiots who believes the courts are run by Democrats rather than the rule of law.

[Old Croc]

He doesn't have the cash so what's next, bankruptcy? Or perhaps get Jarod to head to Saudi with his hand out to deliver a promise to look after them when president again. 

 

 

 

Edited February 17 by Old Croc

[uttradit]

Never heard of a company valuing it's own assets. Always done by an independent valuation firm. Otherwise anyone could apply for a $1bn loan.

 

 

[Srikcir]

4 hours ago, Roo Island said:

He's been proven guilty by a grand jury.

Trump was indicted by a grand jury but finding of guilt was made by the judge in a "bench trial." Neither plaintiff nor defendant requested a jury trial.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, kingstonkid said:

Have you ever owned property.  I can tellyou from experience that when you buy propetrty and are using a different property as collateral there is almost always a difference between what you think and the bank does.  

 

Also, no one holds a gun to the bank's head.  The bank looks at what is provided and balances that with whether they want to agree and or do business with a person.

 

 

As others have stated this is going to cause almost all commercial property owners to get the hell out of NY state.  

 

They all do it.  THe banks all do it.

 

I am willing to guarantee that a lot of business is going to leave NY state and that this is gong to go to the supreme court.

 

This is a Dem gtovernor and DEM AG that wanted to make a name for themselves with a DEM judge.

Hell the judge under valued the properties that he owns

 

But of course it is NOT political.

 

Nobody forced the voters of New York to go to the polls and vote for any political party.

 

If you think that it is political then look here. 

https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/ny-special-election-santos-02-13-24/index.html

 

Democratic victory: Democrat Tom Suozzi won the special election in New York to succeed disgraced former Republican Rep. George Santos — a result that will further shrink the House GOP’s narrow majority.
What this means for the House: Democrats now take back the seat Santos turned red in 2022, a huge win in a race that focused on immigration. While the victory won’t affect control of the House, an even tighter GOP margin could prove critical in upcoming legislative battles. The election could also offer clues for the fall races.

 

How about a former Republican Mayor of New York? Once a Trump lawyer and now a bankrupt.

 

Rudy Giuliani?

 

Perhaps the people of New York (who are the voters) are fed up with Republicans.

 

 

 

 

[rovinman]

4 hours ago, gargamon said:

The big problem for Trump is even if he has grounds for appeal, he needs to put up the full amount of the 385 million, either in cash or bond. And no bank that does business in NY can give him the money. 

 

He could ask his friend Vladimir, for a loan or Jin-Ping , his buddy boys  !

[Walker88]

58 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

 

 

 

The only difference between buying houses and large land developers are the size of the loan, and the amount of checking that banks go through.

The banks do due diligence and are supposed to check the information.

 

Although it is not the same, look at the RE mortgage crash 2008.  That was caused by banks not doing their true diligence and making sure that people that got the mortgages could actually afford them.  It was also due to the banks not confirming the value of properties that 1 day were worth 100K and then 2 weeks later were valued at 200K.

 

The banking world has been doing this crap for as long as they have given loans.  Should they not be also responsible if they misvalue a loan?

 

How many Bank managers or people went to jail because they did not do their due diligence?    

 

TRUMP overvalued property, so what?  If you walk into the bank and tell them that your house is valued at 5 mills, is it going to believe you?  No, they are going to check it out.

 

[

You are trying to equate nickel and dime stuff with major properties.

 

You are also ignoring the fact that laws exist whereby loan and insurance applicants are required to be truthful, and to sign attesting to that.

 

It's pretty easy to assess the value of a 3 br single family home in a bedroom town outside cleveland. It's a lot more complicated to assess value of a 60-story commercial tower, plus go over each and every lease, in order to assess value. It's like in 2008 when MBSs were all the rage, and no bond buyers went through each individual mortgage that makes up the various tranches of the bond. A few sharp fund managers did do that, and shorted the MBSs, making $billions.

 

To give an example that trump's fraud was not  merely doubling value estimates, in the judge's ruling he notes a property trump valued at $14 and then $161 million literally days apart. That level of lying, and then signing it attesting it is accurate to the best of your knowledge, is why the penalty was so big.

 

As for due diligence, there is no law that banks must get valuations in minute detail. They are allowed to rely on the attestation of the loan applicant. The punishment for failure to do due diligence is done by shareholders, who can sell off the stock of a bank that is reckless.

 

There IS, however, a law that says a loan applicant must be truthful to the best of his or her knowledge. $14 million vs $161 million in a matter of days is a rather egregious violation of that law. That is only one example.

Edited February 17 by Walker88

[Lacessit]

13 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Trump was indicted by a grand jury but finding of guilt was made by the judge in a "bench trial." Neither plaintiff nor defendant requested a jury trial.

A major stuff-up by Trump's lawyers. Then Trump posted he was denied a jury trial, which was a lie, as usual.

[Prubangboy]

56 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

 

 

 

 

 

How many Bank managers or people went to jail because they did not do their due diligence?    

 

 

 

 

None, am I right? Obama and his justice department did not crucify them to appear moderate.

 

They therefore got off for political reasons. But it's not a 100% Get Out of Jail Free card. Sometimes you do a bad thing and get whacked.

 

You pretend to worry about Microsoft getting whacked for doing a bad thing. The only way not to get whacked for doing bad things -is not to do bad things. 

 

I mean, duh.

[Wrwest]

6 hours ago, frank83628 said:

is that a Dem voting Judge by any chance?

Ha! Of course, as were all members of the citizen Grand Jury which determined there was enough evidence to hold the trial …

[Wrwest]

6 hours ago, Tug said:

Trump is finally reaping what he has sown over the years he must be exhausted from all the winning 355 million on this one then 88 million for assaulting Jean Carrol I forgot how much he had to pay in his scam charity then there was his university scam that one ran about 20 million he’s approaching a half a billion dollars in fines now!and his criminal cases haven’t been tried yet yup he must be exhausted from all the winning!

These and the coming charge findings hit Trump directly in the ego and the wallet. No one knows the future, of course but I’m thinking a total meltdown is not out of the question.

[Wrwest]

5 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

With that ruling, we can now officially called Trump a fraudster and a con artist. 

 

Better yet emphasize … a convicted fraudster and con artist!

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, frank83628 said:

Putin puppet...yawn......  you just proved the type of person you are.

One with more brain cells than you, obviously.

[G_Money]

The kind of reactions I expected from a forum of 95% liberal <deleted>.

 

At the time of the loans in which he paid back in full btw, the banks of course did their due diligence and ensured the properties were worth their value, much the same when I obtained a mortgage.

 

No red flag at that time until Trump is running for office.  Coincidence?, I think not.

 

If he wasn’t running none of these BS charges  would even appear.

[Roo Island]

2 hours ago, frank83628 said:

no, where did i say anything like that??  but inrely... treat everyone the same... but that wont happen

Your saying he is being persecuted politically, not because he broke the law which requires him to pay taxes. Thus. You must be ok with the rich not paying taxes.

 

Agreed. Treat everyone equally.

 

P.S. this isn't about emails.

[Lacessit]

11 minutes ago, G_Money said:

The kind of reactions I expected from a forum of 95% liberal <deleted>.

 

At the time of the loans in which he paid back in full btw, the banks of course did their due diligence and ensured the properties were worth their value, much the same when I obtained a mortgage.

 

No red flag at that time until Trump is running for office.  Coincidence?, I think not.

 

If he wasn’t running none of these BS charges  would even appear.

I love it when guys like you start frothing at the mouth about liberal lefty pinko commies. Please continue.......

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I love it when guys like you start frothing at the mouth about liberal lefty pinko commies. Please continue.......

 

  You guys do seem to be using the law to interfere with democracy , prosecuting and  jailing your political opponents contravenes the democratic process