Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Yes I read it. Natural immunity from prior infection is longer lasting and more wide ranging than a double jab.

 

Why not redirect those vaccines to those in greater need of them?

Well, that's a fair point. Although evidence is limited. But I guess that means that you would support vaccinating those who haven't yet been infected?

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, Hatch said:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

 

Makes sense when a majority of the population is vaccinated.  Duh.

[Jeffr2]

17 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Yes I read it. Natural immunity from prior infection is longer lasting and more wide ranging than a double jab.

 

Why not redirect those vaccines to those in greater need of them?

Why are you so against this vaccine? Please. Stop. Your bs helps no one.

[pomchop]

1 hour ago, Hatch said:

There are no internet experts I can see posting anything but citations from the types of experts you reference in your post.

Get the damn shots. Please.

[Scott]

Posts with oversized graphics have been reported and removed.  Continue and face a suspension.   Posts should be formatted to make them conform to the forum.   Twitter is not an acceptable source for information.  

 

[Scott]

One has to be careful in taking many of the studies that become popular in the media as being absolute and correct.   Most are not false, but they do suffer from what is known as selection bias.   Until they are confirmed by larger numbers and mega data, the conclusion may or may not be accurate.  

 

The original data from the Israeli study on waning immunity is a good example.  Being the first to vaccinate, they had a lead on new data.  But, the study had an inherent bias.  The first group were not representative of the population in general.  It was heavily weighed toward older people and those with compromised immune systems.  Also in the group, were people who were younger, professional people, who were eager to travel for business or pleasure, thus possibly exposing themselves to the virus in other settings.   

The same is true of the Massachusetts group.  This was a highly vaccinated group and naturally, if people became infected in that group, they were much more likely to be vaccinated.  That too, was a case of selection bias.  

 

All of these studies are worth noting, but until they are supported by larger data samples without bias, ingest them with caution.  They may not be the end-all or be-all of information.

 

[pomchop]

[LarrySR]

On 7/27/2021 at 12:07 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

In the U.S., there have been nutjob groups of anti-vax medical workers, mainly in Republican/Trump states like Texas and Florida AFAICT, who have been refusing and fighting their employers efforts to require that they be vaccinated.

 

Now today we have this:

 

Doctors, nurses and medical groups call for mandatory coronavirus vaccinations for health workers

 

The health and safety of the nation 'depends on it,’ says a statement signed by 57 groups.

 

"Medical groups representing millions of doctors, nurses, pharmacists and other health workers on Monday called for mandatory vaccinations of all U.S. health personnel against the coronavirus, framing the move as a moral imperative as new infections mount sharply.

 

“We call for all health care and long-term care employers to require their employees to be vaccinated against covid-19,” the American Medical Association, the American Nurses Association and 55 other groups wrote in a joint statement shared with The Washington Post. “The health and safety of U.S. workers, families, communities, and the nation depends on it.”

 

(more)

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/26/mandatory-vaccinations-urged-health-workers/

 

Yep, the anti science Covid nut job Republicans are "owning the libs' one funeral at a time. 

[LarrySR]

The Lincoln Project on "Ivermectin".

One of the funniest bits I've seen them produce.

 

[cdemundo]

5 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

Sorry, you're not believable. You don't have that knowledge. You simply can not and do not know what the mRNA vaccine will lead to in 5 years time, whether the production of the viral protein will not be repeated at some point, whether it will be done in numbers too great for my particular immune system.

 

From your comment above it is clear that you do not know what you think you know. From the government itself:

 

"mRNA vaccines work by introducing a piece of mRNA that corresponds to a viral protein, usually a small piece of a protein found on the virus’s outer membrane. (Individuals who get an mRNA vaccine are not exposed to the virus, nor can they become infected by the vaccine.) Using this mRNA blueprint, cells produce the viral protein."

 

https://medlineplus.gov/about/

 

I think I trust the world's largest medical library, sponsored by the US government, more than your self-declared knowledge, which they contradict. You are obviously not sufficiently equipped to understand what you are posting.

 

It doesn't matter if mRNA vaccines are fragile. If they are injected in the body they are not decayed, and if that happens then they cause the cells in the body to produce the viral protein. Even if it is the spike part, that is of course what leads to infection.

 

You clearly do not understand the basics of mRNA vaccines.

 

 

 

 

From your own quote:

"(Individuals who get an mRNA vaccine are not exposed to the virus, nor can they become infected by the vaccine.)"

You also seem to misunderstand "the viral protein" is a portion of the virus that is called "the spike" protein.

When they say "the viral protein" they mean a part of the virus, if they meant the virus, they would say "the virus".

 

with respect to mRNA 5 years from now:

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go

 

"How long do mRNA and spike proteins last in the body?"

"For COVID-19 vaccines, all of the approved vaccines so far used the spike protein. The spike protein is located on the outside of a coronavirus"...

 

"How long mRNA lasts in the body

The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work by introducing mRNA (messenger RNA) into your muscle cells. The cells make copies of the spike protein and the mRNA is quickly degraded (within a few days). The cell breaks the mRNA up into small harmless pieces. mRNA is very fragile; that's one reason why mRNA vaccines must be so carefully preserved at very low temperatures."

 

"How long spike proteins last in the body

The Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) estimates that the spike proteins that were generated by COVID-19 vaccines last up to a few weeks, like other proteins made by the body. The immune system quickly identifies, attacks and destroys the spike proteins because it recognizes them as not part of you. "

 

Nothing in your quotes contradicts what I posted.

The information I just posted backs up what is said before.

 

more:

https://www.idsociety.org/covid-19-real-time-learning-network/vaccines/vaccines-information--faq/

from The Infectious Diseases Society of America website

Q:How long does the spike protein made by the body (generated by the COVID-19 vaccines) last in the body?

A: The protein lasts the same amount of time as other proteins made by the body. The exact time is not known, but it is estimated to be a few weeks. 

 

The Infectious Diseases Society of America website has a QandA section that will answer a lot of questions on these subjects.

 

As the saying goes "I can explain it to you, I can't understand it for you."

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

Well, that's a fair point. Although evidence is limited. But I guess that means that you would support vaccinating those who haven't yet been infected?

On the other hand there is this:

COVID-19 antibody study shows downside of not receiving second shot
Recovering from COVID-19 doesn’t guarantee antibodies or confer immunity to re-infection, study found

“Our study shows that prior exposure to SARS-CoV-2 does not guarantee a high level of antibodies, nor does it guarantee a robust antibody response to the first vaccine dose. For people who had mild or asymptomatic infections, their antibody response to vaccination is essentially the same as it is for people who have not been previously exposed

https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2021/08/covid-19-antibody-study-shows-downside-of-not-receiving-second-shot/

So just having antibodies acquired through infection, is no guarantee of adequate immunity. For large scale immunization programs, determining the antibody levels for each prospective patient, is just too unwieldy.  Better to get a standardized dose.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, Hatch said:

Excellent post. And interestingly, they were pulled due to much lower adverse effects than we are seeing reported with the vaccine (so far). 

 

Currently 14,500+ in the USA.

https://openvaers.com/covid-data

Website operated by the CDC/FDA.

Here we go again.

 

OPENVAERS.COM is a private Anti-Vaccine organization recognized for its efforts in scare mongering and the miss representation of data from the official VAERS database.

 

The people behind and funding of this misinformation organization attempt to remain hidden, though thankfully the press are on the case.

 

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Bay-Area-woman-openers-site-covid-vaccines-16383086.php

 

 

https://www.logically.ai/articles/california-woman-anti-vax-site-openvaers

 

 

OPENVAERS.com is an anti-vaccine misinformation site.

 

 

 

[placeholder]

10 hours ago, Hatch said:

Excellent post. And interestingly, they were pulled due to much lower adverse effects than we are seeing reported with the vaccine (so far). 

 

Currently 14,500+ in the USA.

https://openvaers.com/covid-data

Website operated by the CDC/FDA.

Just to add a little to what ChomperHiggot wrote. This website is not operated by the CDC/FDA. That is utterly false. What it's doing is reporting raw data from from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System without explaining what the VAERS system is. The VAerS receives reports of any adverse health events subsequent to vaccinations. Patients, caregivers, and doctors can all report to the system. What sites like this want you to construe is that these are Adverse Effects of the vaccines. The reports in no way imply that these events were caused by the vaccinations. Given that over 100 million people in the USA have been vaccinated, it's inevitable that some of them are going to suffer adverse health events including death regardless of whether they were vaccinated or not. The real question is whether these events occurred at a greater rate that they would have otherwise. A question that is in no way addressed by this misleading website.

[cdemundo]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Here we go again.

 

OPENVAERS.COM is a private Anti-Vaccine organization recognized for its efforts in scare mongering and the miss representation of data from the official VAERS database.

 

The people behind and funding of this misinformation organization attempt to remain hidden, though thankfully the press are on the case.

 

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Bay-Area-woman-openers-site-covid-vaccines-16383086.php

 

 

https://www.logically.ai/articles/california-woman-anti-vax-site-openvaers

 

 

OPENVAERS.com is an anti-vaccine misinformation site.

 

 

 

Right the VAERS are probably over reported since no verification or filter of any kind

so if you take only the fully vaccinated in the USA,  so this is conservative 169,592,873

and use all the reported adverse effects with no filtering, so also conservative 14,500

14500/169,592,873 x 100 gives the percent of reported adverse affects so simply the number of adverse affects that came after the vaccine that people reported. Some will of course be unrelated but no matter include them all.

14500/169,592,873 x 100 = 0.00854988758%

 

 

 

[Tanomazu]

9 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Please show a link proving vaccines have cost millions of lives. Otherwise, don't put up misinformation. It helps no one. Terrible .

 

You're totally wrong about Israel. Where do you get your information from?

It's not misinformation, we've gone down the vaccine path and we have 4.6 million dead. The question rather is if those 4.6 million would have happened with or without the vaccinations.

 

Israel has had a world-leading uptake of vaccinations, with over 80% of adults having had two shots of the vaccine and yet has seen record numbers of Covid deaths despite the vaccine, this is totally wrong? Are you not following the news then?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/31/israel-registers-record-daily-coronavirus-cases

 

[Tanomazu]

10 hours ago, cdemundo said:

OK so we can agree that natural immunity after an infection by COVID may be higher than the immunity from a vaccination.

So what is your point?

Are you saying that the way to avoid getting COVID is by getting COVID?

That seems to be the implication.

 

The point is that our health experts have:

 

1) Failed to foresee and plan for a coronavirus pandemic, even though coronavirus has been around for decades, even though the Robert Koch Institute has in 2015 raised the possibility of a coronavirus pandemic and Bill Gates and others have warned of the impact of a pandemic

 

2) When the outbreak came the experts gave us totally false predictions of what would happen based on models they later admitted were flawed

 

3) Then proceeded to advise our governments to put in place catastrophic lockdowns the effectiveness of which many study papers have questioned

 

4) Then spent millions on vaccines which we now know a) do not give as good protection as natural immunity b) have had thousands of  "adverse effects" worldwide ranging from death by stroke to paralysis to blood clots in the brain and c) are only 49% effective against new strains like the Delta variant

 

If you had to grade the performance of our health experts I'd have to say it would be somewhere in the D range.

 

Given the fact that the mortality rate for Covid19 is 1.4 per cent based on actual case numbers, and around 0.4 per cent  if you adjust for the fact that tests do not catch 100% of cases (using Whitty's multiplier) then clearly this raises questions about whether a healthy individual should choose to vaccinate or not.

 

Clearly, the fact that they would have better immunity if they rely on natural immunity, rather than the vaccine, is a major fact to consider if they are young and healthy. However, nobody tells anyone before they take a vaccine that natural immunity is better.

 

In fact the numerous "adverse effect" possibilities, stroke, blood clots, paralysis etc, are not listed and people who take up the vaccine are not fully informed.

 

My real concern is that mRNA vaccines are really only used since 2005. They lead the cells in the body to produce the viral protein. What if the body's cell have some memory and later down the line the cells again produce the viral protein, possibly in numbers too great for the immune system to defeat the second time around, if the subject is older? We do not have the data on safety for these vaccines that we should have.

 

This does not mean vaccines should not be used, obviously for the elderly and those most at risk they're a must. However, governments are spending billions of taxpayer money on these things. We should know the full facts. And particularly before we use the vaccination.

[Tanomazu]

6 hours ago, cdemundo said:

From your own quote:

"(Individuals who get an mRNA vaccine are not exposed to the virus, nor can they become infected by the vaccine.)"

You also seem to misunderstand "the viral protein" is a portion of the virus that is called "the spike" protein.

When they say "the viral protein" they mean a part of the virus, if they meant the virus, they would say "the virus".

 

with respect to mRNA 5 years from now:

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go

 

"How long do mRNA and spike proteins last in the body?"

"For COVID-19 vaccines, all of the approved vaccines so far used the spike protein. The spike protein is located on the outside of a coronavirus"...

 

"How long mRNA lasts in the body

The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work by introducing mRNA (messenger RNA) into your muscle cells. The cells make copies of the spike protein and the mRNA is quickly degraded (within a few days). The cell breaks the mRNA up into small harmless pieces. mRNA is very fragile; that's one reason why mRNA vaccines must be so carefully preserved at very low temperatures."

 

"How long spike proteins last in the body

The Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) estimates that the spike proteins that were generated by COVID-19 vaccines last up to a few weeks, like other proteins made by the body. The immune system quickly identifies, attacks and destroys the spike proteins because it recognizes them as not part of you. "

 

Nothing in your quotes contradicts what I posted.

The information I just posted backs up what is said before.

 

more:

https://www.idsociety.org/covid-19-real-time-learning-network/vaccines/vaccines-information--faq/

from The Infectious Diseases Society of America website

Q:How long does the spike protein made by the body (generated by the COVID-19 vaccines) last in the body?

A: The protein lasts the same amount of time as other proteins made by the body. The exact time is not known, but it is estimated to be a few weeks. 

 

The Infectious Diseases Society of America website has a QandA section that will answer a lot of questions on these subjects.

 

As the saying goes "I can explain it to you, I can't understand it for you."

The problem is you read things and copy and paste them but you don't actually understand them. The mRNA vaccine leads the cells of the body to produce the viral protein, it's a spike protein, but it's very much the viral protein. It's a protein and it's part of the SARS Cov2 virus, hence why medical professionals call it the "viral protein". Nothing I posted is in any way contradicted by your copy and paste.

 

And you have spectacularly missed and failed to understand the point about safety that I was making, which is that the mRNA vaccine gets the cells in our body to produce the viral protein. So the question is not how long do mRNA and spike proteins last in the body. Rather, since our body's cells themselves are fooled by the mRNA vaccine to produce the viral protein, the question is if the body's cells, once armed with the knowledge of how to produce the viral protein, will in years down the line produce the viral protein ten, twenty years down the line.

 

Neither you, nor anybody in the world, currently has knowledge of whether or not that will happen.

 

So before you arrogantly claim you understand things which you obviously don't, maybe make an effort to understand the points actually being made, rather than strawmen points you came up with.

[Tanomazu]

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

If virtually everyone in the USA who could be vaccinated was vaccinated, the Covid pandemic would long be over.

 

This is fantastic misinformation. Since studies have shown that the vaccines only provide 49% protection against the D variant it is very obvious that vaccinations do not prevent mass spread of the virus, as indeed we have seen with Israel, a country where 80% of adults received two doses, yet which still saw record number of cases.

 

How can you possibly make such a statement that the pandemic would be over if everyone had the vaccine? That's what we hoped for, but it looks very clearly like that is not the case.

[cdemundo]

25 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

The problem is you read things and copy and paste them but you don't actually understand them. The mRNA vaccine leads the cells of the body to produce the viral protein, it's a spike protein, but it's very much the viral protein. It's a protein and it's part of the SARS Cov2 virus, hence why medical professionals call it the "viral protein". Nothing I posted is in any way contradicted by your copy and paste.

 

And you have spectacularly missed and failed to understand the point about safety that I was making, which is that the mRNA vaccine gets the cells in our body to produce the viral protein. So the question is not how long do mRNA and spike proteins last in the body. Rather, since our body's cells themselves are fooled by the mRNA vaccine to produce the viral protein, the question is if the body's cells, once armed with the knowledge of how to produce the viral protein, will in years down the line produce the viral protein ten, twenty years down the line.

 

Neither you, nor anybody in the world, currently has knowledge of whether or not that will happen.

 

So before you arrogantly claim you understand things which you obviously don't, maybe make an effort to understand the points actually being made, rather than strawmen points you came up with.

There is nothing arrogant about saying I understand high school biology.

Again your paragraphs above are hopelessly meddled.

You confound the virus and viral proteins and the method by which the cells are induced to produce the spike protein.

You either have not read or have not understood the information I referred you to.

Again " once armed with the knowledge of how to produce the viral protein" the virus has not been armed with knowledge.

No matter how hard you rage you are still completely wrong.

 

"The mRNA vaccine leads the cells of the body to produce the viral protein, it's a spike protein, but it's very much the viral protein" again you misunderstand it is "a viral protein" and it can't cause the disease.

 

"So the question is not how long do mRNA and spike proteins last in the body." That is exactly the question; the mRNA is needed to make the spike protein. The cell doesn't "know how to produce the viral protein", The mRNA is necessary to cause the cell to make the spike protein.

 

I am not insulting you, you are repeatedly displaying the incredible misunderstanding and anthropomorphism ("our body's cells themselves are fooled ...  once armed with the knowledge of how to produce the viral protein").

I am not arrogant at all, i said from the beginning if you took a bit of time you would understand these basics.

it is not extraordinary that anyone understands these basics, what is extraordinary is how badly you have misunderstood this. And also it is extraordinary how hard you rage.

 

$14.99 on Amazon:

Biology Made Easy: An Illustrated Study Guide For Students To Easily Learn Cellular & Molecular Biology

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=idiots+guide+to+biology&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

This is just what you need.

[Jeffr2]

57 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

It's not misinformation, we've gone down the vaccine path and we have 4.6 million dead. The question rather is if those 4.6 million would have happened with or without the vaccinations.

 

Israel has had a world-leading uptake of vaccinations, with over 80% of adults having had two shots of the vaccine and yet has seen record numbers of Covid deaths despite the vaccine, this is totally wrong? Are you not following the news then?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/31/israel-registers-record-daily-coronavirus-cases

 

What? Many died before a vaccine was even available? Have you forgotten this. As we now know, with the jab, the odds of you dying are VERY low.

 

Your totally twisting what'shappening in Israel. Do some more detailed research and you'll find out the truth of what's happening .

 

Sad you gravitate towards such bs.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Tanomazu said:

It's not misinformation, we've gone down the vaccine path and we have 4.6 million dead. The question rather is if those 4.6 million would have happened with or without the vaccinations.

 

Israel has had a world-leading uptake of vaccinations, with over 80% of adults having had two shots of the vaccine and yet has seen record numbers of Covid deaths despite the vaccine, this is totally wrong? Are you not following the news then?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/31/israel-registers-record-daily-coronavirus-cases

 

The data from Israel is consistent with data from elsewhere around the world.

 

The unvaccinated are at significantly higher risk of serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID.

 

Israel’s data confirms vaccines are safe and effective.

 

[Tanomazu]

34 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

There is nothing arrogant about saying I understand high school biology.

Again your paragraphs above are hopelessly meddled.

You confound the virus and viral proteins and the method by which the cells are induced to produce the spike protein.

You either have not read or have not understood the information I referred you to.

Again " once armed with the knowledge of how to produce the viral protein" the virus has not been armed with knowledge.

No matter how hard you rage you are still completely wrong.

 

"The mRNA vaccine leads the cells of the body to produce the viral protein, it's a spike protein, but it's very much the viral protein" again you misunderstand it is "a viral protein" and it can't cause the disease.

 

"So the question is not how long do mRNA and spike proteins last in the body." That is exactly the question; the mRNA is needed to make the spike protein. The cell doesn't "know how to produce the viral protein", The mRNA is necessary to cause the cell to make the spike protein.

 

I am not insulting you, you are repeatedly displaying the incredible misunderstanding and anthropomorphism ("our body's cells themselves are fooled ...  once armed with the knowledge of how to produce the viral protein").

I am not arrogant at all, i said from the beginning if you took a bit of time you would understand these basics.

it is not extraordinary that anyone understands these basics, what is extraordinary is how badly you have misunderstood this. And also it is extraordinary how hard you rage.

 

It looks like you're trying to overcompensate for having been shown to be wrong. I do not "confound" virus and viral proteins" in the slightest, the spike protein is a viral protein, and that is what it is called on the world's largest medical library.

 

Again you miss the point I made spectacularly. I did not say "the virus has been armed with knowledge". The point rather was that the mRNA vaccine gets the cells in our body to produce the viral protein, and since cells have the information of what the viral protein looks like, thanks to the mRNA vaccine, this raises the question of whether the cells will at a later date start producing the viral protein. Neither you nor anybody else knows if that can or will happen, because mRNA vaccines are only widely used since 2005 and for Covid19 since 2021.

 

Most grievously you clearly fail to understand that the mRNA is needed to make the viral protein only at the beginning, before the body's cells have for the first time encountered the virus or the mRNA. However, once the mRNA is administered it in fact leads the body's cells themselves to produce the viral protein since thanks to the mRNA they have the ability to do so.

 

This is the key issue, and it raises the question of whether the body's cells can later start producing the viral protein years down the line. You do not have any information or data on this, nor does anybody.

 

Yes, the mRNA is necessary at the start to make the viral protein, but only then, thereafter the cells have the RNA information they need to produce the viral protein, which is what they do. That is why it is called mRNA, ie Messenger RNA, the message has been delivered, the information is there, the cells can then proceed to produce the viral protein, it's not the mRNA producing the viral protein. It's only the messenger. It's the cells in our body themselves, once given the RNA information that produce the viral protein that leads to antibodies.

 

You think the mRNA is necessary to make the viral protein. However, that is only the case at the outset. Once the RNA message is delivered it is the cells themselves that produce the viral protein once they have the RNA information.

 

I have misunderstood nothing. I understood the basics. However you do not understand the mRNA is only required at the start to trigger the cells to produce the viral protein, however, once the message is delivered it is the cells of the body that produce the viral protein. It's not the mRNA, it's only the messenger for the RNA information. It's the cells in our body that then produce the viral protein once they have the RNA information.

 

There is no data on how the cells behave after 10 years once they have been given the RNA information. You don't have it. Nobody does.

 

 

[Tanomazu]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The data from Israel is consistent with data from elsewhere around the world.

 

The unvaccinated are at significantly higher risk of serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID.

 

Israel’s data confirms vaccines are safe and effective.

 

Indeed, that data shows that despite 80% plus of adults having received two vaccinations this did not stop the pandemic in Israel, on the contrary, Israel then saw record numbers of Covid cases.

 

In the UK too, we have seen that the government now is again talking about re-instituting Covid restrictions because it fears the fourth wave as cases are rising. Despite vaccinations.

 

So yes, the data in Israel is indeed consistent with data around the world. The consistency is not the problem. The problem is that the vaccines did not stop the pandemic. Because as studies have shown even Biontech's vaccine is only 49% effective against the Delta variant.

[Chomper Higgot]

44 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

This is fantastic misinformation. Since studies have shown that the vaccines only provide 49% protection against the D variant it is very obvious that vaccinations do not prevent mass spread of the virus, as indeed we have seen with Israel, a country where 80% of adults received two doses, yet which still saw record number of cases.

 

How can you possibly make such a statement that the pandemic would be over if everyone had the vaccine? That's what we hoped for, but it looks very clearly like that is not the case.

Again you refer to Israel, which presents data supporting the safety and effectiveness of vaccines.

 

Why not flip to the other end of the vaccine uptake scale and see how Idaho, Florida and other places run by anti-vaxxers  are managing?!

 

The mass cases of serious illness, hospitals swamped with unvaccinated people suffering COVID and unvaccinated people dying at an alarming rate is evidence you choose to ignore.

 

 

 

 

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Indeed, that data shows that despite 80% plus of adults having received two vaccinations this did not stop the pandemic in Israel, on the contrary, Israel then saw record numbers of Covid cases.

 

In the UK too, we have seen that the government now is again talking about re-instituting Covid restrictions because it fears the fourth wave as cases are rising. Despite vaccinations.

 

So yes, the data in Israel is indeed consistent with data around the world. The consistency is not the problem. The problem is that the vaccines did not stop the pandemic. Because as studies have shown even Biontech's vaccine is only 49% effective against the Delta variant.

Jeez. Higher cases due to a variety of factors. Wearing off of the vaccine, most of whom were elderly or had underlying conditions. These groups were vaccinated first.

 

Super spreader events from unvaccinated school children. And the same with unvaccinated adults

 

Why do you constantly deny the severity of this virus or the effectiveness of the jabs? It gets old. Fast.

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Again you refer to Israel, which presents data supporting the safety and effectiveness of vaccines.

 

Why not flip to the other end of the vaccine uptake scale and see how Idaho, Florida and other places run by anti-vaxxers  are managing?!

 

The mass cases of serious illness, hospitals swamped with unvaccinated people suffering COVID and unvaccinated people dying at an alarming rate is evidence you choose to ignore.

 

 

 

 

Anti vaxxers gravitate towards sensational headlines like Israel and ignore others like the southern US. Sad.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Indeed, that data shows that despite 80% plus of adults having received two vaccinations this did not stop the pandemic in Israel, on the contrary, Israel then saw record numbers of Covid cases.

 

In the UK too, we have seen that the government now is again talking about re-instituting Covid restrictions because it fears the fourth wave as cases are rising. Despite vaccinations.

 

So yes, the data in Israel is indeed consistent with data around the world. The consistency is not the problem. The problem is that the vaccines did not stop the pandemic. Because as studies have shown even Biontech's vaccine is only 49% effective against the Delta variant.

We’ll there you go again, misrepresenting the facts.

 

Israel’s experience with the Delta variant is that those are vaccinated are very much less likely to become seriously ill, hospitalized or die from the disease than those who are not vaccinated.

 

Your 49% is a simplification of this fact.

 

Go look at the data for people who are not vaccinated.

 

 

[Tanomazu]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Again you refer to Israel, which presents data supporting the safety and effectiveness of vaccines.

 

Why not flip to the other end of the vaccine uptake scale and see how Idaho, Florida and other places run by anti-vaxxers  are managing?!

 

The mass cases of serious illness, hospitals swamped with unvaccinated people suffering COVID and unvaccinated people dying at an alarming rate is evidence you choose to ignore.

 

 

 

 

Actually plenty of data from Israel outlined the safety issues of the vaccines. For instance Israeli  scientists were the first to find the link between heart inflammation and the Pfizer vaccine:

 

"Israel's pandemic response coordinator, Nachman Ash, said that a preliminary study showed "tens of incidents" of myocarditis occurring among more than 5 million vaccinated people, primarily after the second dose."

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-examining-heart-inflammation-cases-people-who-received-pfizer-covid-shot-2021-04-25/

 

I note that for some reason you do not comment at all on the stupefying fact that 80% of adults in Israel got two shots of the best vaccine, yet Israel saw record number of Covid cases despite that. Very strange.

[Tanomazu]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

We’ll there you go again, misrepresenting the facts.

 

Israel’s experience with the Delta variant is that those are vaccinated are very much less likely to become seriously ill, hospitalized or die from the disease than those who are not vaccinated.

 

Your 49% is a simplification of this fact.

 

Go look at the data for people who are not vaccinated.

 

 

I'm not misrepresenting facts at all. You are misrepresenting my posts as misrepresentations. In fact 49% is not a "simplification".

 

"The researchers estimated that two doses of a Covid-19 vaccine are 49% effective at preventing infection with the delta variant, in line with recent data from Israel and much lower than previous estimates."

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/08/04/fully-vaccinated-half-as-likely-to-catch-delta-covid-variant-and-less-likely-to-infect-others-study-finds/?sh=2b206a12281c

 

So those vaccinated are 0.49 times less likely to be infected. Mortality rate is still 1.4% globally.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Tanomazu said:

Actually plenty of data from Israel outlined the safety issues of the vaccines. For instance Israeli  scientists were the first to find the link between heart inflammation and the Pfizer vaccine:

 

"Israel's pandemic response coordinator, Nachman Ash, said that a preliminary study showed "tens of incidents" of myocarditis occurring among more than 5 million vaccinated people, primarily after the second dose."

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-examining-heart-inflammation-cases-people-who-received-pfizer-covid-shot-2021-04-25/

 

I note that for some reason you do not comment at all on the stupefying fact that 80% of adults in Israel got two shots of the best vaccine, yet Israel saw record number of Covid cases despite that. Very strange.

Because I’ve commented on it numerous times, and exposed by calculation the fallacy in the claims anti-vaxxers are making.

 

People who are vaccinated getting mildly ill v those who are not vaccinated becoming seriously ill, hospitalized and dying are all examples of ‘COVID’ cases.

 

They  look like the same thing until you examine the data.

 

FACT:

 

People who are vaccinated are at significantly lower risk of becoming seriously ill, hospitalized or dying from COVID.

 

If you have any data to dispute that fact, let’s be having it?!