Gated community abandoned homes - who's reponsible?

[Hamus Yaigh]

There's an abandoned home in our gated Land And House community, the owner ran away unable to meet the mortgage repayments. Now there's a notice from the bank on the front gate which I expect will never change. In the mean time whilst the public park areas are neatly maintained by gardeners, the abandoned house has been left with the vegetation to grow wild. In time to come it will become a hazard with overgrown trees, hedges and grassland.

 

My question is how is this kind of situation normally handled by the local gated community? The immediate neighbors will be at higher risk, but shouldn't the entire house estate management take care of such matters much like the public park areas?

[blackcab]

An unhelpful troll post and a reply to it have been removed.

[Tropicalevo]

41 minutes ago, Hamus Yaigh said:

but shouldn't the entire house estate management take care of such matters much like the public park areas?

It very much depends on the rules and regs of the management company.

From the view of maintaining the 'beauty' and the value of the development - yes.

In my limited experience, foreign run developments - what you suggest is true.

Where the management is a local 'profit making' enterprise - less likely.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

A similar situation occurred in the gated community I live in, also a L&H development. A house was abandoned during construction and sat vacant for around 20 years. The weeds and trees took over the garden and the building ruin just sat there. Eventually the bank (or whoever had title to the property) managed to find a buyer and the place has been under reconstruction for the past nine months or so. It was quite an eyesore, but now it is nearing completion and looks very nice.

 

I don't think the community's juristic entity has the authority to authorize or undertake any work on the premises. The only party that could have done that was the owner or someone with the legal right to act on the owner's behalf. The house literally sat there untouched for about 20 years. There was also an abandoned pickup truck parked in front of the house and it sat there deteriorating for the whole time until the new owner of the house had it hauled away. As far as I could tell, nobody touched the place for almost twenty years.

[Denim]

Best thing is to speak to the estate management and try to reach a sensible solution between the estate and the bank..

 

What would be desirable is the cheapest solution that keeps the abandoned property free of jungle and reasonably presentable.

 

Once cleared of unwanted growth ( biggest expense) growth could be controlled by monthly treatment with weed killer, cheap quick and effective.

 

I concur with the above post. It might be an eyesore to you but it will be invisible to the locals.

Thais tend to focus on beautiful things not ugly things. It's as if they don't realize an ugly background detracts from a beautiful focal point.

 

Hence , drive around any modern moobahn and you will often see flowering plants displayed on a pile of old building bricks or bald tyres.

 

They focus on the flower not what its sitting on.

 

 

 

[Swiss1960]

Legally, the house belongs to the owner, until either he sells it or it is given to another owner (i.e. the bank) through a court proceeding. Until such point, if somebody would enter the property - even in good faith to maintain the surroundings of the house -, this could be seen as trespassing / breaking in and the maintenance - i.e. removal of trees - might even be seen as causing damage to the property. 

 

What the management company can do is go to the court and get an order from the court that forces the owner to maintain his property, i.e. based on threads to the community from vermin in said house that spread (termites, rats and so on). The owner would be given time to fulfill the order, after which the management company can then get an order to enter the property and clean up on behalf of the owner and send him the invoice (which of course would not be paid in an abandoned house case).

 

I checked this with my lawyer, as I have a house in my neighborhood which is not abandoned, but occupied by Thai relatives of the English owner and the garden is maintained maybe once every 9 months before the owner comes to visit. One tree clearly had termites and needed urgent treatment. The thread with court proceedings by the management committee made the Thais comply (through the owner) and at least remove the tree and burn down the ant nest and spray regularly for the next 6 months. Now they clean the yard every 1-2 months. The rotting car with no licenses sitting on empty tires however was not removed, but at least I don't see that one from my own garden, only when I am on the street

[LarrySR]

Isn't their a community homeowners association with by-laws that collect fees and performs maintenance on the common property? 

Should be a rule about maintaining ones property and if they don't, the association has it done and invoices the homeowner, then attaches a high interest rate on unpaid fees to compel compliance.

 

 

[Peterw42]

I think you will find the village Juristic has no say over what happens inside an individually owned property, its privately owned land/house, that's inside a village where the "common property' is shared, and rules apply to the common property. Its no different to a condo block trying to tell you to make your bed, choosing the internal paint color.

You would probably have more of a recourse via the local ampher as a fire, vermin problem. The village juristic could make a request to the owner/bank to maintain the property but wouldn't have any jurisdiction.

[Andrew Dwyer]

Similar story here:

House opposite me became vacant about 3 years ago, young couple living there from new ( about 1 year ) couldn’t make the payments and the bank reclaimed.

 The garden is becoming a jungle and a neighbour and myself would occasionally go inside and cut back the undergrowth, recently the Government Bank came, put a “ Do not enter “ sign and changed the padlock. The garden is full of trash ( some old gym equipment that the owners bought to sell ) and the garden + house is now being taken over by those “ creepers “ type plants. The bank have never entered the premises, to my knowledge, yet must have it listed for sale/rent as occasionally people do come and take a [quick] look from outside. The house is on a cul de sac of 6 houses so it is obvious when people are coming to view, most don’t get out of the car .

I am torn between the advantages of not having a neighbour ( more parking, no noise, other issues) or living next to an eyesore.

[Hamus Yaigh]

13 hours ago, Denim said:

try to reach a sensible solution between the estate and the bank..

I suppose this would be the best approach since the previous owners no longer are responsible having lost the property to the bank lender. A shame really as the old owners kept the place very nice, they just ran out of cash in the current knockdowns and the house is now empty and going to ruin with the banks in charge.

 

I expect the immediate neighbors will just scale the walls and enter themselves sooner or later, as there will be no solution immediately forthcoming, to avoid the mess and hazard extending into their homes next door.

[mahjongguy]

You would think that banks would be anxious to sell off repossessed property, recover a majority of the unpaid loan amount. But no, not in a hurry at all because while they hold the chanote they can keep the full market value on their books as real assets. That number looks very positive to shareholders as well as bank regulators, and can be more important than raising cash at an actual loss by selling. 

 

Since all other possible actions by the Committee are certain to be futile, the most likely way to fix the problem is to help the property get sold. Put up signs (on the sidewalk or other common areas) with the phone number of a willing Committee member. Take calls, praise the property and the virtues of the mooban itself (e.g. low annual fees). Contact the bank employee who has that listing in their portfolio. Make friends.  Spread the word on Facebook, etc.

 

In the end it may not get the property sold but at least there's a chance. Getting the amphur to force the bank to keep the property cleared is the intended legal path but the odds of success of close to zero. 

[The Hammer2021]

I imagine the property will be sold off at cheap price. How do you know the mortgage has been defaulted? My friend bought his house for cash, on a gated community, but has never lived there, has neglected it, left it deserted but hasn't defaulted on mortgage payments. Banks have departments especially for selling off such properties. They are keen to get rid of them. In my condo block the deserted condos were sold via blind auction via the local tax office I believe. People had bought for cash but had not paid taxes and maintenance fees etc.

[Andrew Dwyer]

Agree that the banks do the least to sell the house other than some advertising in the bank itself.

In our case a bank pick up with about 7 workers in it showed up one day, we presumed they were going to clear the “ jungle “ and the trash in the garden ( already 3 years ). But no, they sat on the front porch, ate some food and drink then 1 guy put a “ No entry “ bank sign on the gate while the other 6 gave helpful advice !!, changed the padlock then left .

[Hamus Yaigh]

4 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

How do you know the mortgage has been defaulted?

The occupants reportedly said so as they packed their belongings, uninstalled all 8 aircons and left. Presume the bank has the keys now.

[aussieinphuket]

we have exactly a problem

like this occurring now in our small development where an angry old english guy has decided he won’t pay his CAM fees anymore ie Common Area Management fees and is in arrears around 500,000 so we have stopped maintaining garden outside his villa which he does now and also stopped garbage collection is about all we can do. he paid the previous 15 years to the management company but past 2 years ceased payment all the other owners are paying fortunately and maintaining development as many live here and some are rented out. 

 

we have handed everything over to

our lawyers and they have filed case in court for full amount plus standard interest 7 pct. they are confident after prior discussions with other legal people in phuket the judge will rule in our favour obviously it’s cost our group a reasonable amount to do this but we are all happy to go ahead.

 

a meeting between our lawyers and his lawyers ended up with his lawyer suggesting he pays or makes some offer to us and to continue paying as they explained to him their fees are going to be quite high also here created a precedence by paying previously under the purchase agreement CAM fees to the developer then when we changed to a management company. 

 

in the meantime he lives he we see him in restuarant and bars drinking most evenings.

 

he has restricted access to the development as we put in a security barrier during daytimes and he has no security pass or card to enter so he needs to get off his motor bike and go to push a button to open security access and the guard in the evenings will not open the barrier for him.

 

in the meantime he tries to sell his villa but it just look strange to real estate agents or prospective buyers about his access.

 

court hearing continuing now.

 

 

 

[tonray]

We have a house across the street (yes another Land and House community !) about 3 years old, purchased around the same time as ours. Owner comes usually once or twice per year, never occupied, he comes for 10 miniutes, sometimes not even going inside the house and leaves. A very puzzling problem. Not paying hos common area fees (well of course not using any common area services either). No improvements were ever done, the house has never been occupied. Water company disconnected service last year, electric bills just stack up in hi mailbox until the wind blows them around. Jungle of course as it's an end unit and has a nice garden area. I wish someone would come and move in...but then again....bad neighbors are always worse than no neighbors. For now...doesn't bother me because you never know who you might get in there.

[topt]

7 minutes ago, aussieinphuket said:

court hearing continuing now.

If possible can you update when the verdict comes out please - maybe even a separate thread?

I, and possibly others, would be interested to hear how the court rules on this 

(all be it I realise a ruling in one court is not necessarily transferable anywhere else)

[thailand49]

My 2 cents,  like anywhere else the bank owns the property always has the reason the notice is on the gate put there by the bank like in any situation until the owner pays off the loan the register owner is the bank.

 

Being inside a development as noted what are the by laws of the development in Thailand from my experience many developments look good on the surface dig deeper which majority of buyers never dig or ask the question is looking over the books are to how much is being spent particular who isn't paying their fair share of the association each month. With developments requiring 51% ownership of Thais my experience is a good % aren't paying and the association good at sweeping beautification of the area but fail in applying their own rules. Sound familiar?  Thailand, full of rules and laws but very little enforcement.

 

While the place has been abandon it is still owned if the by-laws is strong and the place is well run internally the bank ( owner ) has the obligation to continue paying the monthly dues for upkeep if not the association should be strong enough to contact the bank and request payment if not paid put a judgement on the bank and property so when it is sold whatever past payment is recovered.

 

Meantime, if the association can request a current homeowner living in a property to straighten up there should be something to tell the bank to also shape up!  Majority of those on the board and bless them for their participation don't have a clue as to what is going on and allow the management company run the place to the ground even here in Thailand ownership has the power but don't know it the management company works for you.????

[steven100]

so gated communities are fine until someone stops paying their mortgage .....  then it becomes an eyesore for everyone.

Legally,  I think you'll find the estate management, community area management group or whoever looks after the parks, grass, common areas,  has no right or permission to enter or touch an abandon dwelling,  it's nothing to do with them .....   it's solely between the bank and the mortgagor.  

It's either owned by a bank or whoever is on the title. 

If the bank has repossessed the dwelling due to a failed mortgage it will simply advertise the place and try to sell it which can take years.  The banks have hundreds of abandon houses on their books and some don't get sold for 10-20 years.  

[BangkokReady]

On 10/5/2021 at 10:44 PM, Denim said:

Thais tend to focus on beautiful things not ugly things. It's as if they don't realize an ugly background detracts from a beautiful focal point.

They know it's there, the Thai way is to ignore it purposefully rather than deal with it.  If you tried to take a photo of it, the locals would likely ask you not to do so (if it was ugly enough that the people in that area would "lose face").

[bbko]

Are we talking about Pattaya Land & House? Cause if yes, I've seen the house mentioned in the OP, it's an overgrown jungle eyesore. 

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

Coincidentally, in my case, a large tree adjacent to my property was brought down with the wind last night.The moobahn headman , who together with his small team trim all the trees in the common areas, had informed personal at the bank that the tree had a lot of movement and was hanging over 2 other properties.

 

 

Luckily it has fallen away from my property and not appeared to have done any damage.

Will be interesting to see if the bank actually bother to clear this now. No signs of the squirrel that was living there though unfortunately .

[wwest5829]

Part of my learning experience when retiring to Thailand in 2011 was the difference in dealing with abandoned or repossessed housing. In the US, those houses would, upon repossession by the bank, be put on the market and reduced in price until sold. Here, for the first two years, I lived in a rented L&H house. I noted there were a few houses being left to “go to seed”. Hmm, thought I, an opportunity to buy a deeply discounted property and reconstruct! Yea … no! Here those properties cannot be bought outright by foreigners and the properties had been financed by a bank for an amount on the banks books. If they were to reduce the price and sell the property, well it would be a financial loss for the bank. Someone would be at fault for financing the property bad loan in the first place and bringing a financial loss to the bank. No way anyone wants to accept that loss of face … And so, the decision that properties remain at full value on the bank books. I think the same reasoning why used cars are not reduced in price to move the “product”, or lack of discounts given on the original price at new car dealerships. Just a big difference in selling approach …

[kingstonkid]

I am involved in this situation.  The previous GF did a runner due to being caught borrowing with no intent to repay.  I was left with the choice of paying her mortgage payments for her and staying in the building or simply leaving.

 

I left.

Since then the house has been empty and the grounds that were nice have gone to hell.  

There is noting anyone can legally do about it. There is also no way that they can hire someone to look after it and bill her because no one knows where she has gone, believe me I tried she owed me money.

 

Due to the pandemic banks have been told to lay off people owing and the Thai system for foreclosure is a very long one ( 2 years so far)

 

Until the bank sells it though auction there is nothing anyone can do and it is not in my best interest to fix it up,

 

(BTW if anyone in the PT area is looking for good cheap AC call me I have 3 for sale)

 

The condo knows that I have the keys but also knows that i only use it for storage at this point and have no legal attachment. Therefore while I used to pay the fees that also stopped.

 

[Jen65]

This topic is becoming very interesting and informative .The main problem with Moo Baans/walled estates is that when the Thai Government made the Condominium Act they never made one for walled estates .  Thus it was up to the individual owners to set up whatever management they voted on .  I understand that some Moo Baans set up a Juristic Entity with a Juristic Manager and Committee registered at the Land Office .  I also heard that some estates are run as a "company" with each property owner a shareholder .    I am not sure about so called "village co-operatives  ?? 

I bought a house is a seemingly nice / maintained small Moo Baan and pleased with things until after the first year when my partner received a call to pay the communal fees into the given bank account .   As my house is company owned I asked for a proper written invoice signed by the Juristic / Chairman however nothing has been forthcoming.  I found the bank account account is a Juristic bank account so that is fine but then I decided to dig deeper and being an owner I was able to attend the Land Office and obtain the file on the Moo Bann as a listed Juristic Entity .  Only problem was that since it's formation some 20 years ago , nothing has been entered , no minutes of meetings ,no accounts and no information on current Committee members .  There was a copy of the Village Rues/Regulations as originally deposited /approved.  

I found the name/address of said person whom "running" the village and sent a registered letter asking why no entries in the Juristic Entity which is actually a legal requirement like annual company accounts .I also stated I was more than willing to help , join a Committee , help set up an emergency Executive Committee if need be and pay my communal fees but I needed a proper invoice to put through my "company account" ( as I said) . I also stated that with no legal Juristic / Committee or documents filed at the Land Office, then nobody had any legal powers to enforce anything ie Communal payments / Rules and Regulations .

I'm still waiting for a reply .

As far as I am aware , if there is a legally registered Juristic then action can be taken , through the courts , to recover non payment of communal fees from the Owner or whoever owns the property (even the bank) .   This can only be done for up to five years as after that the debts are automatically removed so it pays to wait until year 4 to obtain a large amount and help offset the management charges .Sometimes it is necessary to set an example to force payment .

I would be interested to hear other information/comments on so called " Village Co-Operatives " and what they are / what legal powers they have / if any .

Lastly, I am informed that I can request the Land Office to take action on the absence of documents being filed in the Juristic Entity account .             

[CM Dad]

This is one more reason, out of many, that I have made the decision to never buy or rent in a gated community.  Every one I have ever been in, including some that are very expensive, has abandoned and/or neglected properties.  They look nice when newly constructed, but many become high-priced slums after only a few years.

[newnative]

   It's always a surprise to me that you see abandoned houses in nice developments.  My Thai partner's sister lives in a very nice gated community in Bangkok and there are at least 3 or 4 abandoned houses.  I asked him about them and he thinks most aren't banked-owned.  Rather, the owners are wealthy and just aren't using them.  Wealthy, but letting the weeds grow high.

   In Pattaya, we were house-hunting and we visited a nice gated project and looked at a horrible property that looked abandoned.  Termite-infested, bad water damage, filthy inside and full of trash.  Needed a total makeover.  Turns out the house is owned by a rich Bangkokian.  One of those very busy sorts and he had not been to Pattaya and checked on the home in several years.  Apparently had no idea it had so badly deteriorated until his agent sent him photos.  Likely more of those than you'd think.  

     We ended up buying a fixer-up property that had sat empty for many years.  One of our neighbors told us that the weeds and undergrowth got so bad that the project paid a few times to have it cleared as a hazard before someone involved with the property arranged for periodic grounds maintenance.  

[scorecard]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:45 AM, LarrySR said:

Isn't their a community homeowners association with by-laws that collect fees and performs maintenance on the common property? 

Should be a rule about maintaining ones property and if they don't, the association has it done and invoices the homeowner, then attaches a high interest rate on unpaid fees to compel compliance.

 

 

Good points, this is not an easy situation and there's no point in spending community funds and billing an owner who will never pay the bill and has possibly moved on to other activities etc., and will never even see the bill.

[tonray]

There's also another strage phenomen around here (Bang Yai), there is a wealthy contractor who buys a house in every MooBaan gated village around here just to use a show model, They load the house with every amenity and use it as a selling point. I noticed some nice features and had the GF call the number on the gate and she was told this was simply a show home and we were welcome to arrange a tour to pick the stuff we wanted for our own house. Very weird. Looks great from the outside but empty too.....some Thais are doing very well apparently

[JBChiangRai]

Despite the legality of the situation, my advice would be for yourself and your neighbours to cut the grass and do minimal maintenance to (a) keep it safe, and (b) stop your own properties from becoming devalued by association.