Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[gearbox]

28 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

I think the point the author makes is that NATO/USA provoked this war, that Russia got dragged into it, had no choice but to go to war.

 

At a time when no other country had nuclear weapons, so totally different circumstances. 

Well, the Ukrainians themselves think that NATO/US has contributed to flaming this war:

 

https://dimitrilascaris.org/2022/07/01/poll-finds-most-ukrainians-believe-ukraines-government-nato-and-the-u-s-bear-some-responsibility-for-ukraine-war/

 

The war is wrong, all wars are wrong, but here we are, the war is there and can become quite dangerous for everyone. As the article points there is no favorable outcome of this war due to one of the countries having the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world. No bar stool talks can change that. The longer the war is going the worse it would get, if the Russians keep winning the Ukrainians will lose more territory, if the Russians start losing the risk of nukes being used increases a lot.

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Well, the Ukrainians themselves think that NATO/US has contributed to flaming this war:

 

https://dimitrilascaris.org/2022/07/01/poll-finds-most-ukrainians-believe-ukraines-government-nato-and-the-u-s-bear-some-responsibility-for-ukraine-war/

 

The war is wrong, all wars are wrong, but here we are, the war is there and can become quite dangerous for everyone. As the article points there is no favorable outcome of this war due to one of the countries having the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world. No bar stool talks can change that. The longer the war is going the worse it would get, if the Russians keep winning the Ukrainians will lose more territory, if the Russians start losing the risk of nukes being used increases a lot.

You kind of left out who Ukrainians blame most of all and by far, didn't you? And the group that Ukrainians blame the least, ultra rightiest, are the ones Russia used as an excuse for the invasion

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/WSJ_NORC_Ukraine_Poll_June_2022.pdf

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Well, the Ukrainians themselves think that NATO/US has contributed to flaming this war:

 

https://dimitrilascaris.org/2022/07/01/poll-finds-most-ukrainians-believe-ukraines-government-nato-and-the-u-s-bear-some-responsibility-for-ukraine-war/

 

The war is wrong, all wars are wrong, but here we are, the war is there and can become quite dangerous for everyone. As the article points there is no favorable outcome of this war due to one of the countries having the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world. No bar stool talks can change that. The longer the war is going the worse it would get, if the Russians keep winning the Ukrainians will lose more territory, if the Russians start losing the risk of nukes being used increases a lot.

Strange because your linked article is referencing a poll funded by the WSJ and carried out by  (NORC) at the University of Chicago. It has no link to the article from the WSJ or the actual poll. So for some clarity, here is what it actually found direct from WSJ, there is no mention of the claims from your article.

 

WSJ Poll: Ukrainians Reject Ceding Land for Peace

An overwhelming majority of Ukrainians say it would be unacceptable to reach a peace deal with Russia by ceding territory to Moscow, according to a new WSJ-NORC poll carried out earlier this month.

 

"they're unified behind President Zelensky. He has something like 78% support in how he's handled the war. And when we ask, "Generally, do you trust this person or this institution in Ukraine?" over 80% of Ukrainians say they support him."

https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/google-news-update/wsj-poll-ukrainians-reject-ceding-land-for-peace/8cf942f8-79bc-480e-8b7e-f799fc5c4f8c

 

 

 

[gearbox]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You kind of left out who Ukrainians blame most of all and by far, didn't you? And the group that Ukrainians blame the least, ultra rightiest, are the ones Russia used as an excuse for the invasion

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/WSJ_NORC_Ukraine_Poll_June_2022.pdf

I didn't post that link to clarify and "distribute" blame about who started the war, it is obvious that the Russians invaded Ukraine. There seems to be some obsession who is to blame, the cooler heads reason what can happen from now on, not to play the blame game. And the outlook is not good any way you look at it.

[gearbox]

21 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Strange because your linked article is referencing a poll funded by the WSJ and carried out by  (NORC) at the University of Chicago. It has no link to the article from the WSJ or the actual poll. So for some clarity, here is what it actually found direct from WSJ, there is no mention of the claims from your article.

 

WSJ Poll: Ukrainians Reject Ceding Land for Peace

An overwhelming majority of Ukrainians say it would be unacceptable to reach a peace deal with Russia by ceding territory to Moscow, according to a new WSJ-NORC poll carried out earlier this month.

 

"they're unified behind President Zelensky. He has something like 78% support in how he's handled the war. And when we ask, "Generally, do you trust this person or this institution in Ukraine?" over 80% of Ukrainians say they support him."

https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/google-news-update/wsj-poll-ukrainians-reject-ceding-land-for-peace/8cf942f8-79bc-480e-8b7e-f799fc5c4f8c

 

 

 

The Ukrainians may reject ceding land for peace, but Die Welt reports about secret negotiations between EU and the US to end the war with diplomacy. I highly doubt the Ukrainians are invited to these talks.

The West can force Ukraine to cede land if self interest dictates it, and the Ukrainians may be left high and dry. The electorate in the EU wants the war to end.

Edited July 10, 2022 by gearbox

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, gearbox said:

The Ukrainians may reject ceding land for peace, but Die Welt reports about secret negotiations between EU and the US to end the war with diplomacy. I highly doubt the Ukrainians are invited to these talks.

The West can force Ukraine to cede land if self interest dictates it, and the Ukrainians may be left high and dry. The electorate in the EU wants the war to end.

All negotiations are a prelude to a diplomatic deal, thats how the majority of wars end but I see you've posted another article and claim with no link with claimed sources being a journalist and ex diplomat:

 

Die Welt: US and European allies likely to hold tacit consultations on a diplomatic solution to the conflict in Ukraine

MOSCOW, 9 July/ Radio Sputnik. The United States and its European allies will likely hold silent consultations on the diplomatic resolution of the Ukraine conflict. think Former American diplomat John Kornblum and German journalist Rüdiger Lenz in an article for Die Welt.

“Secret consultations between the United States and its key European allies seem to continue to consider diplomatic avenues to end the war,” the article says.

 

https://newsunrolled.com/world/55863.html

 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[gearbox]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Another article and claim with no link with claimed sources being a journalist and ex diplomat:

 

Die Welt: US and European allies likely to hold tacit consultations on a diplomatic solution to the conflict in Ukraine

MOSCOW, 9 July/ Radio Sputnik. The United States and its European allies will likely hold silent consultations on the diplomatic resolution of the Ukraine conflict. think Former American diplomat John Kornblum and German journalist Rüdiger Lenz in an article for Die Welt.

“Secret consultations between the United States and its key European allies seem to continue to consider diplomatic avenues to end the war,” the article says.

 

https://newsunrolled.com/world/55863.html

 

 

The Die Welt article is there, go and look at their web site, but it is in German and behind a paywall. No need to post Sputnik sources to imply that the Russians somehow fabricated this. And the article claims the talks are "secret" so one wouldn't expect government press release.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, gearbox said:

The Die Welt article is there, go and look at their web site, but it is in German and behind a paywall. No need to post Sputnik sources to imply that the Russians somehow fabricated this. And the article claims the talks are "secret" so one wouldn't expect government press release.

The article is there but nobody can read it being behind a paywall and in German plus its claim that

 

"United States and its European allies will likely hold silent consultations on the diplomatic resolution of the Ukraine conflict" 

 

Is hardly a revelation, ongoing discussions on a diplomatic deal have probably been going on daily since 24th Feb. 

 

Your own opinion piece  "I highly doubt the Ukrainians are invited to these talks." is also hardly a revelation based on your previous posts.

[Saanim]

5 hours ago, coolcarer said:

A dodgy article originating from the Daily Star in the UK that went viral about the extremely overweight general is hardly on par with the constant deluge of conspiracy theories and pure lies put out by Russian state media and officials with the disgusting denials of Bucha to name just one. 
 

But hey knock yourself out with your false equivalence.

A "false equivalence"? Did I place the "overweight general" (who actually was no general) on par with Bucha? So, why did you bring it up?  Wondering why you rather did not mention the potatoes in Russian McDonald...

[candide]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

You kind of left out who Ukrainians blame most of all and by far, didn't you? And the group that Ukrainians blame the least, ultra rightiest, are the ones Russia used as an excuse for the invasion

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/WSJ_NORC_Ukraine_Poll_June_2022.pdf

Exactly.

For "A great deal of responsibility", it's Russia 82%, U.S. 26% and NATO 24%. In the mind of respondents, there's no doubt about who bears most responsibilities.

[coolcarer]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

A "false equivalence"? Did I place the "overweight general" (who actually was no general) on par with Bucha? So, why did you bring it up?  Wondering why you rather did not mention the potatoes in Russian McDonald...

Are you saying he ate all the potatoes? No wonder Russian McDonalds has run out? ????

[coolcarer]

Another day, another despicable Russian war crime

 

At least 15 people have been killed and about 20 more are feared buried under rubble after Russian rockets struck an apartment block in Chasiv Yar, a town in eastern Ukraine, officials say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62113185

Edited July 10, 2022 by coolcarer
Double word

[heybruce]

11 hours ago, gearbox said:

True..but I personally have no intention to finish my life like this, because of a war in some remote part of the world which can go nuclear.

Europe is a remote part of the world?

[heybruce]

11 hours ago, gearbox said:

If nuclear weapons are used it won't matter at all who started it, the outcome would be disastrous. Even if only Russia uses nuclear weapons without any strike back from the west, this would still ruin the world for generations.

 

People tend to forget that these two countries were under communist rule for many years. The human life doesn't matter much there. There are probably tons of crazy heads behind the scene at the Russian side. Hardened ex communists taught from the cradle that the only thing important is to win.

And you think it is a good idea to reward these people when they use nuclear blackmail?

[heybruce]

10 hours ago, gearbox said:

Ignoring the propaganda noise from both sides and applying some abstract thinking, the reality is really simple.

The Russians at the moment are winning slowly. If they start losing, then there is a pocket full of nukes. Pocket full of nukes is undeniable reality, and that's the point the author makes.

 

Imagine a war between US and Mexico and the Mexicans start getting upper hand. Would the Americans use nukes to change the course of the war? They did it once already in WW2.

Nuclear weapons have been an undeniable reality for almost 80 years.  So is the fact that they have not been used since the end of World War II.  If the Soviet Union did not use them to hold the country together, what makes you think Russia would use them if its smash and grab on Ukraine goes wrong?

 

BTW:  Do you envision Mexico invading the US, or the US invading Mexico?  Either way, it is an implausible "what if..." scenario for the modern world.

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, gearbox said:

I didn't post that link to clarify and "distribute" blame about who started the war, it is obvious that the Russians invaded Ukraine. There seems to be some obsession who is to blame, the cooler heads reason what can happen from now on, not to play the blame game. And the outlook is not good any way you look at it.

Cooler heads reason that rewarding aggression, empire building war and nuclear blackmail will not make the world a safer place.

[ExpatOilWorker]

The Wagner soldiers are whining about ammunition shortage, but of course they also have a bad memory when faced with western firepower. 

 

https://coffeeordie.com/wagner-group-syria-khasham/

[Bkk Brian]

More feel good news that no doubt feels even better for the Ukrainians:

“If the Russians think they can outlast the Ukrainians, they need to rethink that,” the official said. “We are already pivoting towards thinking about what the Ukrainians will need in the months and years ahead.”

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2022/07/08/us-to-send-more-himars-precision-rockets-to-ukraine/

 

Ukraine’s Defense Minister Says It Has ‘Passed Test’ on New U.S. Guided Rockets, Needs More

Himars launchers that can reach far behind enemy lines are a game-changer, says Oleksii Reznikov

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-defense-minister-says-it-has-passed-test-on-new-u-s-guided-rockets-needs-more-11657455388

 

Russia suffers ‘wild shell hunger’ as Ukraine hits arms depots with long-range Western rockets

Russia is running short of ammunition for its armies fighting in Donbas after Ukraine hit several arms depots with new Western long-range artillery

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/russia-suffers-wild-shell-hunger-as-ukraine-hits-arms-depots-with-long-range-western-rockets/ar-AAZq8IM

[GroveHillWanderer]

15 hours ago, gearbox said:

The Ukrainians may reject ceding land for peace, but Die Welt reports about secret negotiations between EU and the US to end the war with diplomacy.

Based on what's been quoted from this article, Die Welt is not reporting that secret negotiations are actually taking place, it's reporting that two people think they're likely to happen.

 

There's a difference.

Edited July 11, 2022 by GroveHillWanderer

[Mavideol]

33 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

More feel good news that no doubt feels even better for the Ukrainians:

“If the Russians think they can outlast the Ukrainians, they need to rethink that,” the official said. “We are already pivoting towards thinking about what the Ukrainians will need in the months and years ahead.”

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2022/07/08/us-to-send-more-himars-precision-rockets-to-ukraine/

 

Ukraine’s Defense Minister Says It Has ‘Passed Test’ on New U.S. Guided Rockets, Needs More

Himars launchers that can reach far behind enemy lines are a game-changer, says Oleksii Reznikov

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-defense-minister-says-it-has-passed-test-on-new-u-s-guided-rockets-needs-more-11657455388

 

Russia suffers ‘wild shell hunger’ as Ukraine hits arms depots with long-range Western rockets

Russia is running short of ammunition for its armies fighting in Donbas after Ukraine hit several arms depots with new Western long-range artillery

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/russia-suffers-wild-shell-hunger-as-ukraine-hits-arms-depots-with-long-range-western-rockets/ar-AAZq8IM

if they also could be running out of missiles that would be even better, the mot.... flukers know they can't win with normal fighting thus last resort to counter Ukraine is sending missiles all over the country even to areas where they lost the fight.... just afraid if they run out of missiles they will resort to nuclear or other dirty bombing strategies, Russians are dirty, they don't play by international war rules/laws/principles

Edited July 11, 2022 by Mavideol

[Kwasaki]

4 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

if they also could be running out of missiles that would be even better, the mot.... flukers know they can't win with normal fighting thus last resort to counter Ukraine is sending missiles all over the country even to areas where they lost the fight.... just afraid if they run out of missiles they will resort to nuclear or other dirty bombing strategies, Russians are dirty, they don't play by international war rules/laws/principles

Blowing up a nuclear power station and saying the Ukrainians hit it with a US supplied missile could be on the cards. 

[Rimmer]

Ukraine defense chief says US rocket systems have been ‘game-changer’

 

Ukraine’s defense minister told the Wall Street Journal that the deployment of U.S. long-range rocket systems has been a “game-changer” in the war against Russia.

 

Oleksii Reznikov said the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, often referred to as HIMARS, has been effectively used by Ukrainian forces in the northeastern town of Izyum, but said more were needed to push back Russian forces.

 

“We needed to persuade them, to show them proof,” Reznikov told the newspaper of Ukraine’s ability to effectively use the weapons systems. “In the Izyum case, we were precise [in targeting] a Russian command center for aerial operations. It was really precise. Our partners saw it and said, ‘You passed the test.’”

 

See more:

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3551961-ukraine-defense-chief-says-us-rocket-systems-have-been-game-changer/

 

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

Blowing up a nuclear power station and saying the Ukrainians hit it with a US supplied missile could be on the cards. 

It would be surely very logical - and believable - to be hit by the Russians when the nuclear power station is currently under Russian control, in the area of the ethnic Russians in Zaporizhzhia.  ????

[Kwasaki]

30 minutes ago, Saanim said:

It would be surely very logical - and believable - to be hit by the Russians when the nuclear power station is currently under Russian control, in the area of the ethnic Russians in Zaporizhzhia.  ????

Well there are 15 power station apparently a more sort of central one would be a target, say the Khmeinistky plant. 

 

[rudi49jr]

And the noose tightens: Moscow councillor jailed for seven years after criticising Ukraine war.

What an unbelievably brave man.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/08/moscow-councillor-jailed-seven-years-criticising-ukraine-war-alexei-gorinov

[Bkk Brian]

Russia's desperation and limited options in supplying weapons for its war in Ukraine now has it going to Iran. One state sponsor of terrorism to another.

 

Iran preparing to send ‘several hundred’ drones to Russia, Sullivan says

 

The Iranian government is preparing to send “several hundred” drones, including some equipped with weapons, to Russia at some point in July, national security adviser Jake Sullivan told reporters Monday.

 

Russian troops could be trained to use the technology quickly, said Michael Kofman, a research program director in the Russia Studies Program at the Center for Naval Analyses.

 

“We will continue to do our part to help sustain the effective defense of Ukraine and to help the Ukrainians show that the Russian effort to try to wipe Ukraine off the map cannot succeed.”

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/11/iran-uav-drones-russia-00045195

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[transam]

An interesting video, during it, do notice the destruction of civilian homes......

 

 

[Saanim]

19 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Well there are 15 power station apparently a more sort of central one would be a target, say the Khmeinistky plant. 

 

Actually, there are only 4 nuclear power plants in Ukraine. And the biggest one, in Zaporizhzhia, currently under Russian control, was of a serious concern of Mr. Grossi,  the boss of IAEA.   After it was found that the UKR had stored there a huge stock o plutonium and enriched uranium - and he was reminded in Davos - he declared that he will go to see it there what's that about.

 

Since that it has not been much reported about that visiting - or did I miss it? But as usually, what's not reported by MSM, it has not happened, has it?

[Kwasaki]

7 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Actually, there are only 4 nuclear power plants in Ukraine. And the biggest one, in Zaporizhzhia, currently under Russian control, was of a serious concern of Mr. Grossi,  the boss of IAEA.   After it was found that the UKR had stored there a huge stock o plutonium and enriched uranium - and he was reminded in Davos - he declared that he will go to see it there what's that about.

 

Since that it has not been much reported about that visiting - or did I miss it? But as usually, what's not reported by MSM, it has not happened, has it?

Apologies yes 4 plants and a total of 15 reactors.

I guess Zaporizhzhia plant  has the most reactors.

[placeholder]

32 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Actually, there are only 4 nuclear power plants in Ukraine. And the biggest one, in Zaporizhzhia, currently under Russian control, was of a serious concern of Mr. Grossi,  the boss of IAEA.   After it was found that the UKR had stored there a huge stock o plutonium and enriched uranium - and he was reminded in Davos - he declared that he will go to see it there what's that about.

 

Since that it has not been much reported about that visiting - or did I miss it? But as usually, what's not reported by MSM, it has not happened, has it?

What you failed to mention is that Russia is denying the IEAE access to inspect the plants. Are the Wall St. Journal and Reuters mainstream enough for you?

 

U.N. Atomic Agency Chief Presses for Access to Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Plant

U.N. atomic agency chief Rafael Grossi said he is pressing for access to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant in Ukraine, which is Europe's largest such facility containing six reactors.

“We hope to go there to be able to prevent...a problem, or we end up finding that there are a few hundred kilograms of nuclear weapon-grade material going missing. This is what keeps us awake at night at the moment,” Mr. Grossi said at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, on Wednesday.

The Zaporizhzhia plant has been under the control of Russian forces since the early days of the Ukraine invasion but Ukrainian staff continue to operate the facility.

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-05-25/card/u-n-atomic-agency-chief-presses-for-access-to-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-g7vHkGVBMtlvYgYQPakd

 

IAEA voices concern for staff at Ukrainian nuclear plant, demands access

VIENNA, June 6 (Reuters) - The U.N. nuclear watchdog is working on sending an international mission of experts to the Russian-held nuclear power plant at Zaporizhzhia in Ukraine, Europe's largest, its chief Rafael Grossi said on Monday.

International Atomic Energy Agency chief Grossi has for months said that the situation at Zaporizhzhia, where Ukrainian staff are working under Russian orders, poses a safety risk and said he wants to lead a mission there.

 https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/iaea-chief-working-mission-russian-held-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-2022-06-06/

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by placeholder