16 minutes ago, johng said:

Not semantics at all !!   it goes to the very heart of the matter  which is  that the immune system itself  not a vaccine  fights the infection.

The heart of the matter is if your immune system has already been introduced to the vaccine you are significantly less likely to become ill, seriously ill, hospitalized or killed by the COVID virus.

 

So give your immune system a safe and proven effective head start.

 

 

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

I guess you don't read much, except what your internet friends send you. 

 

There has been much discussion about natural immunity. Google is your friend. 

So another words you have nothing except insults. About right for many here.

 

I just feel that is a person suffers through covid, recovers and then is forced to vaxx to save his job. Well that's wrong. He doesn't need it.

10 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

They’ve gotta ‘bypass’ the virus first.

 

Doh!

What does that even mean? Homer...

42 minutes ago, johng said:

Not semantics at all !!   it goes to the very heart of the matter  which is  that the immune system itself  not a vaccine  fights the infection.

Except that, without vaccination, the immune system is fairly defenseless against Delta infection. 

21 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So another words you have nothing except insults. About right for many here.

 

I just feel that is a person suffers through covid, recovers and then is forced to vaxx to save his job. Well that's wrong. He doesn't need it.

Natural immunity provides some defense against re-infection, but not for long, and not much against a different variant. Lots of people infected by the original Covid were subsequently infected by Delta. 

 

So, I am sorry, but you are spreading misinformation. 

4 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Natural immunity provides some defense against re-infection, but not for long, and not much against a different variant. Lots of people infected by the original Covid were subsequently infected by Delta. 

 

So, I am sorry, but you are spreading misinformation. 

There are two other issues:

 

The dangerously misleading idea that getting infected is an acceptable path to immunity.

 

The ridiculous idea that during a pandemic funds and medical services are going to be used for testing people before vaccinating them.

 

The vaccines are safe and effective with a proven record of significantly reducing COVID transmission, serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, 2009 said:

Exactly,

 

As Elon Musk said: the at risk people should have been the only ones to isolate.

 

The world is now considering vaccinating 5-11 years olds, for who?

 

Haven't all the high risk people been vaccinated already? Doesn't that do a reasonably good job of preventing serious illness and death from a covid infection?

They are vaccinating children to save their lives as when the 1st cases of Covid 19 came out it infected few persons between the ages of 2----19 but the later variants , especially Delta is much more contageous and affects children as well and makes them very sick.  Can even kill them.

Quote

Except that, without vaccination, the immune system is fairly defenseless against Delta infection. 

I don't intend to wade into this topic, but every once in awhile I need to call out some faulty reasoning.

 

If the quoted statement were correct, the implication would have to be that either (i) Delta variant fatality rates among unvaccinated people would be well north of 50% or (ii) Delta is largely benign. Ie, that it struggles to kill people whose immune systems are largely ineffective against it.

 

Therefore, based on actual data, we can deduce that the quoted statement must be false.

 

That being said, vaccines clearly do offer a meaningful improvement in protection against Covid. I still think people should get vaccinated when possible.

14 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Except that, without vaccination, the immune system is fairly defenseless against Delta infection. 

Is that why so many people are without symptoms and don't die..or have the statistics changed now ?

last I looked more than 80% are asymptomatic and less than 1% die.

 

46 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Or not.

If its not your own body's immune system that will save you what will ?    and don't say the vaccine because that is incorrect...the vaccine as I said before and you  yourself mention above  just gives the body's immune system a "heads up"

7 minutes ago, johng said:

Is that why so many people are without symptoms and don't die..or have the statistics changed now ?

last I looked more than 80% are asymptomatic and less than 1% die.

 

If its not your own body's immune system that will save you what will ?    and don't say the vaccine because that is incorrect...the vaccine as I said before and you  yourself mention above  just gives the body's immune system a "heads up"

Infection is not the same as death. 

 

The unvaccinated have little defense against Covid infection. Do you disagree? 

1 hour ago, 2009 said:

Exactly,

 

As Elon Musk said: the at risk people should have been the only ones to isolate.

 

The world is now considering vaccinating 5-11 years olds, for who?

 

Haven't all the high risk people been vaccinated already? Doesn't that do a reasonably good job of preventing serious illness and death from a covid infection?

Musk, that world renowned epidemiologist, has been known to run his mouth on stuff he doesn’t understand, especially when it has anything to do with that complex set of things we call people..

24 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

I don't intend to wade into this topic, but every once in awhile I need to call out some faulty reasoning.

 

If the quoted statement were correct, the implication would have to be that either (i) Delta variant fatality rates among unvaccinated people would be well north of 50% or (ii) Delta is largely benign. Ie, that it struggles to kill people whose immune systems are largely ineffective against it.

 

Therefore, based on actual data, we can deduce that the quoted statement must be false.

 

That being said, vaccines clearly do offer a meaningful improvement in protection against Covid. I still think people should get vaccinated when possible.

You should have thought a bit more before wading in.

 

The statement ‘Except that, without vaccination, the immune system is fairly defenseless against Delta infection.’

 

is not ‘proven’ false by the death rate being below 50%.

 

Any infection that takes hold and causes damage to health demonstrates a fairly defenseless immune response to the virus. You need to add to the deaths, serious illnesses, hospitalizations and ‘long COVID’ illnesses.

 

The evidence is that without vaccination our immune systems are fairly defenseless to the virus.

28 minutes ago, johng said:

Is that why so many people are without symptoms and don't die..or have the statistics changed now ?

last I looked more than 80% are asymptomatic and less than 1% die.

 

If its not your own body's immune system that will save you what will ?    and don't say the vaccine because that is incorrect...the vaccine as I said before and you  yourself mention above  just gives the body's immune system a "heads up"

If its not your own body's immune system that will save you what will ?    and don't say the vaccine because that is incorrect...the vaccine as I said before and you  yourself mention above  just gives the body's immune system a "heads up"

 

That ‘heads up’ is enough to drastically reduce serious illness, hospitalization and the risk of death.

 

Relying on your immune system without the help of a readily available, safe and effective vaccine is a fools game.

 

Which is precisely why, dead is the new stupid.

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Any infection that takes hold and causes damage to health demonstrates a fairly defenseless immune response to the virus. You need to add to the deaths, serious illnesses, hospitalizations and ‘long COVID’ illnesses.

 

The evidence is that without vaccination our immune systems are fairly defenseless to the virus.

Dude, in order for your statement to be correct the default expectation for any unvaccinated person catching the Delta variant would have to be, by definition, the development a serious illness at a minimum.

 

You can straight up prove that premise wrong by looking at the data. Based on observed outcomes the expected outcome for pretty much anyone catching Delta is that their immune system will defeat the virus. This isn't a debate; literally all of this is plainly visible in the data.

 

That being said, I will reiterate that the data also indicate that vaccination is highly effective at supplementing an immune system's response against the virus and that it is a good idea for people to get vaccinated.

31 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Musk, that world renowned epidemiologist, has been known to run his mouth on stuff he doesn’t understand, especially when it has anything to do with that complex set of things we call people..

He understands logic pretty well and basic numbers, obviously.

 

His view is pretty rational.

 

 

 

 

If people refuse to conform and refuse the vaccination then I suggest they go back home

6 minutes ago, 2009 said:

He understands logic pretty well and basic numbers, obviously.

 

His view is pretty rational.

 

 

 

 

With well publicized bouts of emotional irrationally.

 

 

A baiting troll post has been removed.

This whole STUPID debate would be over......

 

If................

 

The vaxed would stop their crusade to force the unvaxed to get vaxed when the unvaxed have made it very very  clear they are just not interested.....

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, johng said:

If you avoid infection then you won't get ill,   but if you do get infected then perhaps it will be your own body's immune system that saves you ?

Of course its his own body's immune system that saves him because it has been trained to fight covid after receiving the vaccine. So many studies already proving that people who are vaccinated and get covid have up to 10 times less chance of ending up in a hospital. This is not even up for debate its been proven. Wish the antivaxers used their brain.

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

Infection is not the same as death. 

 

The unvaccinated have little defense against Covid infection. Do you disagree? 

You have not answered my question as to what fights an infection or virus in the body

...but I will answer your question

the unvaccinated are at a disadvantage because their immune system  has not been warned in advance  so it is possible that the virus gets the upper hand in the fight in some people...however in most people 80% or more the immune system wins and they only suffer  no  to moderate symptoms  unfortunately a small % of others develop bad symptoms and die.

 

So yes  "infection is not the same as death"  as the body's immune system does what it has evolved to do.      You can catch Covid and not die,   Do you disagree ?

1 hour ago, The Cipher said:

Dude, in order for your statement to be correct the default expectation for any unvaccinated person catching the Delta variant would have to be, by definition, the development a serious illness at a minimum.

 

You can straight up prove that premise wrong by looking at the data. Based on observed outcomes the expected outcome for pretty much anyone catching Delta is that their immune system will defeat the virus. This isn't a debate; literally all of this is plainly visible in the data.

 

That being said, I will reiterate that the data also indicate that vaccination is highly effective at supplementing an immune system's response against the virus and that it is a good idea for people to get vaccinated.

You got a good point, in most cases your own body will fight the infection. However the risk of dying or having long term problems is still relatively high and with a vaccine you got a 10 times less chance for things to become serious. 

 

So your 100% right its just that this can be presented as a reason not to take the vaccine. Though you said you want people to take it. But this is exactly the reasoning of antivaxxers. They think the chance is low and the risk of the vaccine are high (even though its been proven incorrect) 

 

If people look at deaths because of vaccination vs covid deaths i think its quite clear that the virus is far more dangerous then the vaccine. 

6 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I don't see much discussion about those unvaxx folks who contact Covid and recover. I saw a video where a scientist from Phizer says the person who has had covid is as resistant to covid as a vaxx person is. When asked Why he doesn't tell the American people this he ran away and talks about a "Non disclosure" Shouldn't those people be allowed to bypass the vaxx?

Figures you'd fall for that misinformation. Please. Avoid social media. And dodgy websites.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-health-coronavirus-idUSL2N2N72CS

 

A former Pfizer scientist turned anti-vax proponent has made unfounded claims about the novel coronavirus in videos of a speech he gave that have been posted on social media.

1 minute ago, johng said:

You have not answered my question as to what fights an infection or virus in the body

...but I will answer your question

the unvaccinated are at a disadvantage because their immune system  has not been warned in advance  so it is possible that the virus gets the upper hand in the fight in some people...however in most people 80% or more the immune system wins and they only suffer  no  to moderate symptoms  unfortunately a small % of others develop bad symptoms and die.

 

So yes  "infection is not the same as death"  as the body's immune system does what it has evolved to do.      You can catch Covid and not die,   Do you disagree ?

You forget about the about 10% long covid, I mean its a bit too easy to say death.. is the only bad thing. Id say months or recovery is bad too. Anyway it all depends what you think is small if you think 1% or more is a low id say its quite high. I wish i had that high a chance to win a lottery.

 

1% or higher is not small at all especially not as it gets higher if hospitals get overrun. 

 

But if you say 1% is small, then the chance to die from covid vaccination is astronomical small. So what is the problem in taking it ?

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I haven't had the COVID vaccine because it doesn't provide me with anything I want or need.

 

If there was a disease I thought would kill me, and a vaccine I thought would protect me from that death ..... I'd have that vaccine.

I never believed flu would harm me, or the flu vaccine would stop me getting the flu, so I didn't have it.

COVID the same.

 

As for my political views ...... I'm a full on Marxist, redistribution of wealth and land, etc.

Incredibly selfish. Sad you understand it's not just about you.

28 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

This whole STUPID debate would be over......

 

If................

 

The vaxed would stop their crusade to force the unvaxed to get vaxed when the unvaxed have made it very very  clear they are just not interested.....

 

 

 

 

It’s not how to end the debate that matters, it’s how to end the pandemic.

 

That’s where the vaccinated are doing their bit and the unvaccinated are not.

25 minutes ago, johng said:

You have not answered my question as to what fights an infection or virus in the body

...but I will answer your question

the unvaccinated are at a disadvantage because their immune system  has not been warned in advance  so it is possible that the virus gets the upper hand in the fight in some people...however in most people 80% or more the immune system wins and they only suffer  no  to moderate symptoms  unfortunately a small % of others develop bad symptoms and die.

 

So yes  "infection is not the same as death"  as the body's immune system does what it has evolved to do.      You can catch Covid and not die,   Do you disagree ?

Of course it’s possible to catch COVID and not die, but far too often it is not.

 

Far too often COVID causes serious illness, hospitalization and death.

 

But there is a cheap, safe and effective means to dramatically reduce these outcomes - vaccination.

 

Putting aside the human tragedy of COVID killing people and the long term health impacts COVID causes in many, the economic impact of medical treatment and lives cut short are in themselves cause for serious concern.

 

But hey, a few people show no symptoms and some more people don’t get seriously ill.

 

So let’s forget those that do get seriously ill or die, it’s only unnecessary after all.

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, johng said:

You have not answered my question as to what fights an infection or virus in the body

...but I will answer your question

the unvaccinated are at a disadvantage because their immune system  has not been warned in advance  so it is possible that the virus gets the upper hand in the fight in some people...however in most people 80% or more the immune system wins and they only suffer  no  to moderate symptoms  unfortunately a small % of others develop bad symptoms and die.

 

So yes  "infection is not the same as death"  as the body's immune system does what it has evolved to do.      You can catch Covid and not die,   Do you disagree ?

Of course, the unvaccinated may not die from Covid infection. 

 

Similarly, there are many people who play Russian roulette and survive. 

 

So, what's your point? Being unvaccinated is stupid, and so is playing Russian roulette. 

47 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s not how to end the debate that matters, it’s how to end the pandemic.

 

That’s where the vaccinated are doing their bit and the unvaccinated are not.

Even as someone who is fully vaccinated, I still think your point is dumb.

 

It isn't about us banding together and cutting off our nuts for the sake of ending some situation.

 

People should be getting vaccinated to protect themselves from death, that's it.

 

If we are such do-gooders why not actually help Africa? Or give out free motorcycle helmets to teenagers? Or give free swimming lessons to children? Maybe stop fishing? Go vegan?

 

People don't really care.

 

You just want others to get vaccinated so you can have a normal life again and happily go around ignoring all the suffering that doesn't affect you.

55 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Figures you'd fall for that misinformation. Please. Avoid social media. And dodgy websites.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-health-coronavirus-idUSL2N2N72CS

 

A former Pfizer scientist turned anti-vax proponent has made unfounded claims about the novel coronavirus in videos of a speech he gave that have been posted on social media.

I have no idea what you're talking about, not sure who did the short video of him talking about the immune system after a person has had covid, perhaps without the scientist knowing.