Friday 13th: Instructor shot dead at rifle range - beginner student thought it wasn't a live round

[RobU]

11 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

She said she thought that it was a dummy round after picking up a bullet mixed with others on the floor, reported Thai Rath. She was taken to the police station for questioning but as yet no charges have been filed. 

 

Huh? Even if she thought it was a "dummy round", why would she be pointing the gun at the instructor, then firing the gun? And why would a gun have blanks at a firing range? So many unanswered questions. Looks like manslaughter to me. 

More like murder. There may be more to this than we have been told

[Damrongsak]

2 hours ago, Arkady said:

9mm  Browning Hi-Power the first firearm I ever owned. ...

That was my first 9mm and perhaps my first handgun.  I have two commercial-production models from the early 90's.  I have small hands and they fit and point well for me.  One is unused and the other has the mag disconnector removed.  I don't mind a bit of graunchiness in the trigger. 

 

My son has a nice CZ Shadow 2.  I gave him my CZ 75 because the trigger reach is too much for me. (Maybe I should make him convert it to single action only and get it back.)

Edited May 14, 2022 by Damrongsak

[bangon04]

11 hours ago, scorecard said:

And 'students' stotally supervised at all times and not allowed to just pick up rounds from the floor an assume anything!

 

I recall my weapons training / live firing in the early days of national service training. Totally structured and supervised. Students not allowed to do anything except exactly what they were told to do and supervised to do. And after every round fired students cannot move at all until things are checked and then students ordered to put the pistol/rifle down and before they do that a strict triple reminder where the barrel must be pointed at all times.

 

This incident sounds like a picnic and a recipe for didaster. 

Thai Health and Safety Executive will form a committee......

[dirtybirty]

13 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

so do i and several rifles + shotguns can't blame the student , <deleted> was the instructor doing. obviously <deleted> poor at his job and paid the price. Maybe he wanted to shoot his load into her, hence the bang. A lot more to this than meets the eye. Sorry bud but to me instructors lack of diligence 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Harry Black said:

Thank god i have never been on a range with you! Your posts depict someone who should have never been given a firearm in your life. strictly amateur and dangerous.

 

I laughed my ass off when you said the 'range master' should clear your stoppages, were you in the navy or RAF?????

 

I'd always prefer to work with adults and signal when someone asked me to show when clear.

Well done for talking about me and not the topic.

 

The topic BTW was about a civilian firing range in Thailand and how the instructor or the Range Master was shot by a novice.

 

Do you think that she was capable of clearing a stoppage on her own?

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, bangon04 said:

Thai Health and Safety Executive will form a committee......

Will it be a hub?

[eastlight]

12 hours ago, connda said:

The range master and instructor needs to be in control of people in the range - always!

Assume your gun is loaded at all times
What do you do if you check your gun and it's unloaded?  See rule 1.
Never point your gun an anything or anyone you don't mean to shoot or kill.
Keep the muzzle pointed down-range at all times.
If a person is downrange, unload the gun, holster it, or put in on the bench with the breach open.

So let me get this right.
Student picks up a unfired bullet off the floor
Student thinks that unfired bullet is a "dummy"
Student loads "dummy" in magazine, racks a round (this isn't stated - But - there is no other way to get that round in the barrel.
Student playful shoots the instructor with a "dummy" round.

There is so much about this story that is totally - wrong.

 Better still don't have guns. 

[papa al]

10 hours ago, billd766 said:

Its sole purpose is to kill and nothing else.

You could knee-cap someone.

[Seen it on the telly]

[BTB1977]

I call a big B.S on the dummy round excuse. Maybe she thought it was a fake gun also. She shot someone and killed him because she was not careful. I have handled guns since I was 8 years old and understand what comes out the end of one can kill. Complete stupidity on her part. Hope she is put in jail  for murder. 

[Orinoco]

Gun culture and small penis culture 

Same same.

 

[brianthainess]

22 hours ago, webfact said:

She said she thought that it was a dummy round after picking up a bullet mixed with others on the floor,

a. why would bullets be mixed up on the floor?  b. why were they even on the floor,?

c. The instructor failed in his job. 

The good news is maybe the next 'Instructor' will be better at the job. I'm wondering what qualifications you need to be a 'gun instructor'. The whole story is just unbelievable.

This wouldn't be the same woman who mistook the gas pedal for the brake pedal by any chance ?

[jacko45k]

16 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

so that her bothersome husband remains in line

Or simply she can learn how to return fire!

[brianthainess]

7 hours ago, BTB1977 said:

I call a big B.S on the dummy round excuse. Maybe she thought it was a fake gun also. She shot someone and killed him because she was not careful. I have handled guns since I was 8 years old and understand what comes out the end of one can kill. Complete stupidity on her part. Hope she is put in jail  for murder. 

She was a beginner, so it should have been the instructors job to INSTRUCT her to be careful to prevent any stupid actions like this.

[jacko45k]

Children playing with grown up toys!

[scorecard]

20 hours ago, seajae said:

the very first lesson should always be "never point the gun at anyone as well as always have your finger on the trigger guard until you are point the gun at a target and are ready to shoot", must have been a very bad instructor but typical of the expertise in Thailand. Have to wonder why she also pulled the trigger while pointing the gun at him and why she was loading the gun if it was only first time using it

 

 

Which brings the questions:

- Is there an aligned certificiation / license available in Thailand (certified by an appropriate / recognised official body?

- Is there is such a certification / license, is it compulsory on days where there is training/firing activity for there to be someone at the range with this certification / license, and is it law that the person with the certification / license be identified by a hat or whatever and must actively be the person in charge/the only peron who can give orders?

- Did the person in charge of this activity on the day, at this range have any such certification / license?

[Andre0720]

13 hours ago, Purdey said:

But.. but guns dont kill people. Bullets kill people.

Oh but why did you stop there at bullets kill?

How about, But...but bullets do not kill people, the manufacturers of bullets kill people. But manufacturers of bullets do not kill people, those authorizing manufactures to make bullets, but not the authorities who kill, it is the need for protection in this world, but it is not the need for protection that kill people, it is those people who attack other people with intent to kill.

 

Damn, i just do not know what in this word kills people...????

 

[IAMHERE]

Most beginners wouldn't know how to pick a round up, take the magazine out, place the round into the magazine, replace the magazine into the pistol, then get the round from the magazine into the chamber.  Fast learner that lady. 

[Reposed]

On 5/14/2022 at 8:33 AM, webfact said:

She said she thought that it was a dummy round after picking up a bullet mixed with others on the floor

Well, being she is the one who fired it, appropriately named.

[mtls2005]

Occasionally see some Tik_Toks with local firearm aficionados discharging weapons at a "gun range".

 

Most appear to be well-trained, but then you'd expect that from someone posting a video.

 

Unlike Senator Boonsong Kowawisarat...

 

Thai Senator Kills Cousin In Hotel Gun Accident

 

 https://aseannow.com/topic/576925-thai-senator-kills-cousin-in-hotel-gun-accident/

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by mtls2005

[transam]

14 hours ago, billd766 said:

IMHO the blame lies squarely with the Range master. From the first moment of ANY students at the range the Range master is in total charge. He (or she) RUNS that range, and from the first moment the word is SAFETY, followed by, NEVER NEVER point a weapon at anybody unless you intend to kill them.

 

They should be taught, how to handle a weapon, how to load and unload the weapon, what to do when it jams and you can clear it and also when you can't clear it. They will be given a certain number of rounds and that is all they will be allowed. NO picking up ammunition, live or blank and reloading the weapon.

 

At the end of the session, you drop the magazine out, work the action 5 times, always pointing the weapon down range, and then cock, hook and look. Place your thumb in the chamber and check to see light on your thumb nail. If you see it the is nothing up the spout.

 

Lay the weapon down pointing down range with the magazine beside it and wait for the Range Master to check it. The last part is clean the weapon after inspection if it isn't your weapon and even if it is your weapon.. 

The captain of a ship is the head honcho, but those who control the operation of it are many and have their job to do. The dead guy had his job to do as an instructor, he failed in his duty/job.

 

I was trained in UK police forearm procedures, and stand by what I posted. The lady did not have a clue, a newbie should never be let near live ammo until the basics are clearly understood, plus, live ammo should not be lying around. 

[SomchaiCNX]

21 hours ago, kwak250 said:

Yep i don't think diabetes was the cause.

What about suicide? This is Thailand after all.

[SomchaiCNX]

1 hour ago, Andre0720 said:

Oh but why did you stop there at bullets kill?

How about, But...but bullets do not kill people, the manufacturers of bullets kill people. But manufacturers of bullets do not kill people, those authorizing manufactures to make bullets, but not the authorities who kill, it is the need for protection in this world, but it is not the need for protection that kill people, it is those people who attack other people with intent to kill.

 

Damn, i just do not know what in this word kills people...????

 

You forgot to mention her finger that pulled the trigger. Words are more dangerous than bullet sometimes.

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

2 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

Most beginners wouldn't know how to pick a round up, take the magazine out, place the round into the magazine, replace the magazine into the pistol, then get the round from the magazine into the chamber.  Fast learner that lady. 

If you look at the Thai Rath article linked to in the OP, while it doesn't say how many lessons she'd had overall, it does say this was her 5th time practising reloading a weapon.

 

[Andrew65]

In my short military career we were taught that a handgun (pistol) is the most dangerous kind of gun, because it's much easier to wave around and inadvertantly point at people than a 'long' gun.

[billd766]

11 hours ago, papa al said:

You could knee-cap someone.

[Seen it on the telly]

Yes but only at short range and if you were lucky.

[LikeItHot]

On 5/14/2022 at 8:44 AM, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

Dummy rounds are typically orange plastic and they are used to train for misfires. Sounds like you don't know as much as you think you know.

[Mr Meeseeks]

22 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Any civilian who owns a gun is a dummy. 

Thankfully farangs that get excited about guns are no longer allowed to own firearms in Thailand.

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Thankfully farangs that get excited about guns are no longer allowed to own firearms in Thailand.

Indeed there was a bill to amend the Firearms Act so that Thai nationality would required for future registrations of firearms but the bill never made it to parliament before the last general election and the current didn't attempt to revive it.  So, as the law stands, foreigners are still permitted to register firearms in their own names. A work permit and tabian baan are required and PR is preferred but not essential. It is up to local licensing authorities to issue or not.  That means Bangkok will often issue a permit to a foreigner, if he has a good reason in their opinion, such as home defence or shooting sports, and they are satisfied he can speak enough Thai to follow instructions on the range and looks a respectable type of person. Most other provinces will probably not issue to foreigners and many are usually difficult for Thais too. Bangkok licensing is done by the Interior Ministry while in the provinces is under district offices with the provincial governor able to make regulations more strict than the ministry's but not more relaxed.

[Arkady]

18 hours ago, Damrongsak said:

That was my first 9mm and perhaps my first handgun.  I have two commercial-production models from the early 90's.  I have small hands and they fit and point well for me.  One is unused and the other has the mag disconnector removed.  I don't mind a bit of graunchiness in the trigger. 

 

My son has a nice CZ Shadow 2.  I gave him my CZ 75 because the trigger reach is too much for me. (Maybe I should make him convert it to single action only and get it back.)

These is a pretty good model for competition but the pretty turquoise aluminium grips are too narrow and slippery for big hands and need to be changed out. Designed for IPSC it is unfortunately 3oz too heavy for IDPA. It is a heavy pistol that shoots very accurately in the right hands with hardly any recoil due to its weight.  For competition the springs can be changed giving a really light crisp pull in single action.  CZ also sells these lighter springs but doesn't fit them in the guns for legal liability purposes.

 

Even if the springs are changed for competition, in my opinion this is a safer weapon than the Glock used in the accident because it has a safety and, like the Glock is double action, at least for the first shot, which means and relatively long and heavy trigger pull, making accidental discharges less likely.

 

Glocks are very popular in Thailand as they relatively inexpensive in a market where retail prices are marked up several times. But I am not a fan and think they are not very safe.  There have been many accidental shootings by police in the US with Glocks because of the lack of safety. In the hands of a nervous cop with adrenaline running the 5.5lb trigger pull can go off unintentionally like a hair trigger. Possibly this is what happened here, if the student had her finger on the trigger before she was ready to fire and muzzled the instructor maybe swinging around.  In addition most Glock models require you to pull the trigger to remove the slide and this has caused the demise of many US cops in stations while they sit with their colleagues who are cleaning their Glocks. Another issue is that Glock owners buy off label disconnectors and springs to slicken up their weapons and these modifications can cause the timing to go awry resulting in a round being detonated before it is fully in the chamber.  This caused an accident at a range her a few years ago when a visiting US shooting fired a borrowed gun. The slide and receiver blew apart causing him fortunately minor injuries. 

 

In view of the above it is worth remembering to wear proper safety glasses, if you visit a range, even if you are just watching others shoot.  I know someone who got a serious eye injury because he was just wearing regular sunglasses to shoot and he got a similar accident to the one described above.

[Dogmatix]

18 hours ago, Flink said:

She knew the gun was loaded because she says she picked the round up off the floor. The Questions that need answering are:

1. Why did she load it into the gun.

2. What the hell was the instructor doing that he didn't see her load the gun.

3. Why was she even handling the gun if she hadn't yet learned not to point it at anything she didn't plan to kill.

I've been to that range and it's not a big range, so somebody must have seen her load it and aim at the guy.

If the dummy story is true, they would have been doing drills with dummy rounds where they ejected them and picked them up off the floor to reload them. Perhaps they were mixed with live rounds in the magazine to simulate a malfunction that the shooter needs to clear by ejecting the dummy.  Of course, the problem with that is there are bound to be live rounds on the ground that have been ejected by other shooters to show clear, hidden in the astro turf and very difficult to see amongst the empty cases.